Pentecostal View Towards Catholics?

[57classic]

I am currently having a debate with a close relative who left the church decades ago, seems the more I pray for him, the more entrenched he becomes.

What he recently said to me is that if we identify ourselves as Catholic, where a Protestant would have said “I’m a Christian”, as opposed to “I’m Methodist or Church of Christ”, WE must not want to be identified as Christians. While he has a point there, I am proud of my Catholic faith and want to be known not only as a Christian but as a Catholic Christian.

I remember, when I was little, the Children’s Relief Fund (I think) had different addresses to send your donation if you were a Jew, Protestant or Catholic.

We boomers were used to Catholic or Protestant and the current Christian designation has taken us a bit by surprise. But then again, in my experience, Fundamentalists and Evangelicals and the unchurched Christians don’t want to be called Protestant either.

 

[3_Dog_Night]

57 Classic … Just tell him you are Catholic, Christian and Evangelical. Or tell him you are a joyful and intentional disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then I think I might say, “Peace be with you” and change the subject. Would you like some more coffee? Another piece of pie? It takes two to argue … Good luck.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Not entirely true.

One also must remember there are major differences between Pentecostals and Charismatics.

Doctrinaly, yes. Obviously.

I looked up Matt Slick’s Doctrine Grid and did find it fascinating, particularly that someone can be so thorough and and apparently objective in biblical detail, and yet at the same time be so wild and un-selfconscious in projecting their personal beliefs as biblical dogma. Yes - fascinating. When I see this I get a better idea of why some of my mature and learned Protestant friends spend so much of their valuable time in endless scriptural debates - even amongst themselves.

Slick ‘debates’ Catholics and in his opening statements tells them the Catholic Church is apostate and that they are going to hell. All by the imaginary authority created in his own mind. In my experience most of protestantism doesn’t fret over doctrine. If they claim to hear from God and you claim to hear from God and the claims appear to contradict one another, the conversation goes silent. So much of his belief system hinges upon John 16:13:

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

But just maybe there’s misapplication there, at least to a certain degree as the Holy Spirit is not gonna contradict himself and create 30,000 denominations. The promise of the Holy Spirit guiding us to “all Truth” is obviously for the Church and her leaders in general…the One united Church with a consistent message, not thousands of fragmented Churches with no doctrinal unity. Slick is so far into the forest that he cant see the trees.

OTOH, all Protestants profess Sola Scriptura in one form or another, and when they deny Catholics as Christians almost invariably do so on biblical grounds - particularly the differences over salvation by grace alone through faith alone, vs. baptism, or, more simply, over “worshiping of idols”. (from their point of view, of course, which they take for granted is “biblical”, and with limited understanding of Catholicism)

In the case of Matt Slick, he just doesn’t want to understand the teachings of the faith. He likes to pull quotes out of context from Popes 500 years ago, whom he knows nothing about…all in a futile attempt to appear to substantiate his theological presuppositions.

 

[Michael68]

In my experience, the Pentecostal view of Catholics is not favorable.

 

[benhur]

And lets not forget there are many “former” Catholics who don’t consider Catholics Christians

but why ?

 

[benhur]

In my experience, the Pentecostal view of Catholics is not favorable.

Again why ?

 

[benhur]

I have it on good authority that as long as one says the “sinner’s prayer” and “makes a decision for Christ” then all is well for eternity. It doesn’t matter if you said that prayer 36 years ago – never will a question be raised after that. And if you ever doubt your decision and your salvation, the Pastor will tell you: (1) did you pray the sinner’s prayer? (2) did you mean it? were you sincere? (3) God promises salvation to those who believe. do you trust that God honors his promises? If you answer “yes” to 1, 2 and 3, then (4) is a reassurance that you are most definitely “saved”; you just need to rebuke the Devil.

Make the sign of the cross to seal the deal (or not!) on the one and only Sacrament of the Protestant faith (i.e., that would be the Sinner’s Prayer) and you are golden. It doesn’t matter if you live like Lucifer himself the remainder of your life – you are saved. Can I get an “amen”? How about a “preach it sister?” And in fact, it isn’t just a matter of “justification by faith alone” — it is also a matter of “sanctification by faith alone.” Jesus plus nothing. And if you do any works (absent denial that anything is/ was of yourself) …

well then … you have just put your entire eternal destiny at risk. Why? Because it’s all about “double imputation.” Yep, “the same gospel that justifies you, saves you” and be sure to “preach the gospel to yourself every day” and “we preach Christ crucified to both the lost and the saved”. Your sin is imputed to Christ and Christ’s righteousness is imputed to you. You have an “alien righteousness” – no righteousness of yourself. Now as for that “essential” and “non-essential” list, you can find that at 1 Peter 2: 5-12. (Not! Nowhere in the Bible is such a thing and the Protestant denominations themselves cannot agree about it.)

Protestants do not grasp the nuance that Catholics actually do believe in grace alone through faith alone with respect to our initial salvation/ justification/ baptism. What works can an infant or child possibly claim? None at all. It is for sanctification that Catholics believe in a “informed faith” – as in faith working through charity or James’ “faith without works is dead”. But that is probably too nuanced for many Protestants and it does not translate nicely into sound bites. And if you are a Pastor who earns his living as minister of the gospel, well, that is added incentive not to look too closely at Catholic doctrine. Just repeat the anti-Catholic rhetoric. No need to think about it or do any research!

Why? Because the truth of Catholicism can carry a hefty price tag – career, pastorate, family, friends, pension, benefits, reputation. Just ask any of the Protestant pastors, educators, scholars, TV hosts, writers, etc. who converted to Catholicism – what did your conversion cost you? Read some of the testimonies and conversion stories. And while we are asking questions, one might ask how well it pays to write anti-Catholic books, run an anti-Catholic apologetics group or ministry, etc. I hate to be cynical, but if a man’s pay check depends upon holding certain beliefs … he has great incentive to keep eyes closed.

But don’t ya know … it’s all for the good of “saving Catholic souls” … Alleluia! Amen!

Hi 3dn,

well maybe more research is needed, for you certainly have described one of 30,000 denominations, but not any of 3 or 4 that i have been a part of. Some nuances are missing.

Again, what is the reason that one church you researched says Catholic may not be saved (be Christian ) ?

Blessings

 

[3_Dog_Night]

Not one, Ben, try six differing denominations: Methodist, Assembly of God, Baptist, New Calvinist Reformed, Independent Non-Denominational and Vineyard. I think I’ve done more than enough research into the Protestant world view and experience. As for nuance, these topics and conversations do not lend themselves to twitter feeds and sound bites.

The main sticking point between Catholics and Protestants when it comes to salvation is “justification by faith alone”. That is the point upon which the entire Reformation stands or falls. Catholics believe in justification by faith – we just don’t believe in the “alone” part of it. Protestants claim that Catholics base their salvation on “works” and “works” cannot save.

That is the simplified sound bite version. The reality is a whole lot more complicated.

 

[Michael68]

Again why ?

I don’t know

 

[Kliska]

Last year I met a Pentecostal at my College. He was a nice guy, but one thing that has been stuck in my mind ever since was that he mentioned something along the lines (and I could be remembering here) that either he was a Christian or he said something that seemed to insinuate that Catholics aren’t Christians.

I’m more puzzled by the latter partial-memory of the conversation. Why do Pentecostals believe this if I understood him right and didn’t misremember the conversation?

Some Pentecostals would, some would not. In my experience what would be focused on is the idea of Jesus’ sacrifice and what it accomplished or did not accomplish and our role in salvation. But, as I said there is enough different ideas of soteriology in Pentecostalism that it would be individualistic from person to person on whether or not Catholics would be seen as Christian.

 

[rcwitness]

Some Pentecostals would, some would not. In my experience what would be focused on is the idea of Jesus’ sacrifice and what it accomplished or did not accomplish and our role in salvation. But, as I said there is enough different ideas of soteriology in Pentecostalism that it would be individualistic from person to person on whether or not Catholics would be seen as Christian.

Then I’m guessing that would be far from the only issue they would be individualistic about?

As for what Jesus’ sacrifice did and didn’t accomplish, are they opposed to what the Catholic faith Teaches?

 

[Kliska]

Then I’m guessing that would be far from the only issue they would be individualistic about?

As for what Jesus’ sacrifice did and didn’t accomplish, are they opposed to what the Catholic faith Teaches?

I’m trying to think of examples… so, one would be there are Pentecostals that are Oneness, and those that believe in the Trinity.

As for salvation/Jesus’ sacrifice you’d have Holiness believers who believed that works do maintain one’s salvation (through Jesus and His Grace of course, which would be very similar to a Catholic understanding, though some would have far more “strict” rules than what are found in the CCC) and reject OSAS, then you’d have some who were very much focused on Grace and Faith alone that would mirror a more mainstream protestant view of that.

 

[tafan]

Hi m,

Maybe because many P’s believe you must or have had a born again experience as an adult (even after infant baptism), and understand Catholicism to teach that if you are baptized as an infant your are both Catholic and born again. So the P is just not taking for granted that an infant baptism , or even confirmation, being religious, makes you “born again” or means you have had a saving encounter with Christ.

But anyone who has had this experience is a Christian, regardless of being Orthodox , Protestant or Catholic.

Blessings

Why would being an adult make a difference? Impossible for children or teens to be Christian?

 

[rcwitness]

I’m trying to think of examples… so, one would be there are Pentecostals that are Oneness, and those that believe in the Trinity.

As for salvation/Jesus’ sacrifice you’d have Holiness believers who believed that works do maintain one’s salvation (through Jesus and His Grace of course, which would be very similar to a Catholic understanding, though some would have far more “strict” rules than what are found in the CCC) and reject OSAS, then you’d have some who were very much focused on Grace and Faith alone that would mirror a more mainstream protestant view of that.

Thanks. Wow… they are all over the board. I don’t have the capacity to learn all the various beliefs, I think.

 

[57classic]

I think the main sticking point is the authority of the Church and the Pope.

 

[benhur]

Not one, Ben, try six differing denominations: Methodist, Assembly of God, Baptist, New Calvinist Reformed, Independent Non-Denominational and Vineyard. I think I’ve done more than enough research into the Protestant world view and experience. As for nuance, these topics and conversations do not lend themselves to twitter feeds and sound bites.

The main sticking point between Catholics and Protestants when it comes to salvation is “justification by faith alone”. That is the point upon which the entire Reformation stands or falls. Catholics believe in justification by faith – we just don’t believe in the “alone” part of it. Protestants claim that Catholics base their salvation on “works” and “works” cannot save.

That is the simplified sound bite version. The reality is a whole lot more complicated.

Hi 3dn,

Thank you. Yes the sound bites you provide are accurate for some churches.

I think the nuance that is missing is in the first salvation or when is one born again. No matter what the theology, or sacraments, or box we put things in, either one is born again or they are not. Either they have been born in the spirit , born of God, met the living Christ in a submissive, broken yet saving way. It is the Nicodemus scenario.

I think all churches deal with it differently, and there lie the nuances.

I would say if Catholic think they are born again because of infant baptism, or a P because of a prayer, that is justification by a righteous work.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Why would being an adult make a difference? Impossible for children or teens to be Christian?

Hi tafan,

Yesi saw my word “adult” as an insufficient broad term. Sorry. I think you know what I meant, but just in case , I meant one who is of age of understanding…so it could be a child a teen, but certainly not an infant or toddler.

Blessings

 

[ltwin]

I have it on good authority that as long as one says the “sinner’s prayer” and “makes a decision for Christ” then all is well for eternity. It doesn’t matter if you said that prayer 36 years ago – never will a question be raised after that.

If you are referring to Pentecostal denominations, then this is inaccurate. That kind of belief is prevalent in Baptist churches, but Pentecostals take a more Methodistical approach to faith that actually involves practice of the spiritual disciplines and promotion of holiness of life.

And if you ever doubt your decision and your salvation, the Pastor will tell you: (1) did you pray the sinner’s prayer? (2) did you mean it? were you sincere? (3) God promises salvation to those who believe. do you trust that God honors his promises? If you answer “yes” to 1, 2 and 3, then (4) is a reassurance that you are most definitely “saved”; you just need to rebuke the Devil.

It is possible to be consumed by irrational fear that one is going to hell (even when one is in a state of grace). However, Pentecostals would not simply say “if you said a sinner’s payer 30 years ago you are definitely saved.” We would say that it is possible to lose one’s salvation or backslide from God through continued sin and unrepentance and/or a loss of faith.

Make the sign of the cross to seal the deal (or not!) on the one and only Sacrament of the Protestant faith (i.e., that would be the Sinner’s Prayer) and you are golden.

We have 2 sacraments (often called ordinances): the Lord’s Supper and baptism. Some Pentecostal churches add in feet washing citing Jesus’ washing of the disciples feet as its biblical institution.

It doesn’t matter if you live like Lucifer himself the remainder of your life – you are saved. Can I get an “amen”? How about a “preach it sister?”

This is inaccurate. Pentecostals do not teach Once Saved Always Saved. That’s always been more of a Baptist belief. We believe that humans have the capacity to “shipwreck our faith” through our own actions and choices. God never forsakes us, but we can forsake him.

And if you’ve ever been to a Pentecostal church, you should be aware of the fact that no one would say its acceptable to live like the devil. Pentecostalism grew out of the Wesleyan-holiness movement. Our origins are in the search for Christianity lived out in “holiness unto the Lord.”

And in fact, it isn’t just a matter of “justification by faith alone” — it is also a matter of “sanctification by faith alone.” Jesus plus nothing. And if you do any works (absent denial that anything is/ was of yourself) .

I’ve never heard of only being sanctified by faith alone. I have heard it said “Sanctify yourselves” (Joshua 3:5). When we first come to faith, there is initial sanctification which is positional and by faith alone–we are sanctified because we are now found in Christ.

However, there is also a progressive, practical, and experiential aspect to sanctification in which we grow in grace as we conform ourselves to the image of Christ. We are told in 2 Corinthians 7:1, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

Not one, Ben, try six differing denominations: Methodist, Assembly of God, Baptist, New Calvinist Reformed, Independent Non-Denominational and Vineyard.

The Assemblies of God (which is Pentecostal) and the Methodists definitely do not teach Once Saved Always Saved nor do they teach the only condition for salvation is recital of a sinner’s prayer. They utilize prayer in conversion, but they do not treat it as a magical ritual that eternally seals a person with salvation.

I think I’ve done more than enough research into the Protestant world view and experience.

Well, we all have a lot more to learn.

 

[tafan]

Hi tafan,

Yesi saw my word “adult” as an insufficient broad term. Sorry. I think you know what I meant, but just in case , I meant one who is of age of understanding…so it could be a child a teen, but certainly not an infant or toddler.

Blessings

Thanks for the clarification. If you could humor me again: What exactly is a “born again experience” or a “saving encounter with Christ”?

 

[rcwitness]

Thanks for the clarification. If you could humor me again: What exactly is a “born again experience” or a “saving encounter with Christ”?

Can a Catholic give a reply to this?

Being born of water and Spirit can “happen” in “a way” as our infants, when we Baptize them. Let me rephrase… it does happen, when we bring them to His Baptism. Yet this is only the Infant stages of the Christian life. It is not until reaching the age of reason, that a person is able to make a conviction to believe. This moment of “accepting” in belief is no less significant than the Water Spirit Baptism received in infancy. It is also a moment of birth. The two experiences are both necessary in the beginnings of the Christian life.

So too, is the necessity for Water/Spirit Baptism for the person who believes and has not been Baptized as an infant.