Pentecostalism?

[Della]

For the record, CopticChristian did not say that, I did.

Yes, I noticed that, too. Don’t know how the quote was wrong.

I was not making a judgment call about the Catholic Church. To me (and I could be wrong) Coptic Christian’s response to me seemed to take a jab at Pentecostals for not accepting infant baptism. However, in many ways Catholics are more exclusive when it comes to things like communion, while Pentecostals practice open communion for all Christians.

I can’t say what another’s motives might be, but I wanted to clarify the Church’s position for you and others.

This is a fundamental difference in point of view between Catholics and Pentecostals. Pentecostals do not believe that baptism initiates one into the faith. Putting one’s trust and faith in Christ, confessing him as lord and savior, and receiving the grace and forgiveness that he offers into our lives does that. For this to happen, one must first hear and understand the Gospel. Thus, refusing to baptize infants is not excluding them from anything.

I couldn’t disagree more, but this isn’t the thread to discuss that issue–we don’t want to coopt the OP’s topic. So, if you wish, please start a new thread on this. then we can talk about it there. :tiphat:

Pentecostals do not exclude anyone. Whosoever will let him come. We have ministered to and had mentally handicapped persons accept Christ in our church. Do they know the fine points of theology? No, but they know that Jesus loves them and lived, died, and rose again for them so that they might have life and have it more abundantly.

And, there’s nothing objectionable about that. However, it doesn’t replace baptism, but once, again we need a new thread to discuss it properly.

For infants who die before reaching the point of being able to understand or for those who are mentally incapable of understanding whatever their age, we trust that we serve a God of love, mercy, wisdom, and justice and that he has everything under control.

The Church teaches that we are all born with original sin, so baptism is necessary for all persons regardless of their age. We too trust in God’s love and mercy for unbaptized persons of every age. And the Church teaches that baptism may be, besides water baptism, one of desire (meaning the person would have wanted it if he had known about it or been able to receive it) or by blood (martyrdom). The Church must teach what Christ taught and not go beyond that.

As for communion, the Church asks that non-Catholics not receive because it is a sign of unity–of belief and of community. If one does not believe in Christ’s real presence then one does not believe what the Church teaches and so should not receive. The early Church was quite restrictive about who could receive communion because it did not want to a) desecrate Christ’s Body and Blood, and b) it did not wish to put souls in danger of receiving unworthily, as St. Paul warned about in 1 Cor. 11:27. The Church still must do what it determines is best in all matters of faith and morals.

 

[josephback]

Pentecostals understand the altar (actually the area in front of the platform) as a place of prayer. It is a place that we can go as we are moved by the Spirit to kneel in prayer and be joined by others who will pray with us. We don’t have to confess our sins there; we can do that anywhere. When a Christian sins, it doesn’t mean he has “lost his salvation” (our salvation is not within our power to gain or lose) or the new birth is canceled. It means that we are still human and we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. If someone has sin in their life and they feel led to go to the altar and ask forgiveness then that is fine. However, Pentecostals do not believe that one must have a new conversion experience every time one has sinned. Once Jesus has been made lord and savior of our life, we can confess our sins and turn away from them and he is faithful to forgive them.

There is what is called “backsliding” where person lives in a state of unconfessed and unrepentant sin. Often, when backsliders return to God it is called rededicating their lives to Christ. Such a situation is much like being born again, except that in this case the person already had the knowledge of who Christ was and had known his love and grace but had walked away from that.

Perhaps the “Sinner’s Prayer” is not used by most Pentecostals. I know a Pentecostal lady at work who said it’s not specific enough:shrug: But overall I think the point stands. Lack of sacramental confession does not stop the urge or need for absolution. It just leads one to seek it in different ways.

Off topic, do you know if the Assemblies of God baptizes for salvation?? If so I need to seek out my records. Thanks

 

[josephback]

As an evangelical I could never come up with the moment I was “saved”. I do remember when I was baptized in August 1973 and apparently that’s when the Catholic Church believes I was “saved.” Because that was what they wanted to know when I went through RCIA was I baptized and if so when and where? I no longer worry about it. Such a relief:thumbsup:

I could never come up with the moment I was saved either. I grew up in a religous family and didn’t really have a dramatic “testimony”. I was infant baptized Missouri Synod, first prayed the Sinner’s Prayer at age four, chose to be baptized(not realizing what the infant baptism did) at age 7 in the Assemblies of God, and generally stumbled for quite some time after. I think if I had been aware of when I was saved though I would have stopped searching. So God used my uncertainty to bring good. Now this Easter I hope to join the Church and realize salvation is a process, not just an event and furthermore that justification/salvation doesn’t depend on feelings(I’m a habitual depressive). You’re right, it’s very reassuring

 

[josephback]

Perhaps the “Sinner’s Prayer” is not used by most Pentecostals. I know a Pentecostal lady at work who said it’s not specific enough:thumbsup: But overall I think the point stands. Lack of sacramental confession does not stop the urge or need for absolution. It just leads one to seek it in different ways.

Off topic, do you know if the Assemblies of God baptizes for salvation?? If so I need to seek out my records. Thanks

Sorry, should have put a by the Pentecostal lady saying the Sinner’s Prayer wasn’t specific enough. I’m on an iPod and couldn’t edit the last one. Mistake fixed

 

[graceandfaith]

Itwin, I’m sure many Assemblies Churches as well as the Denom I was raised in (Church of God) do not exclude people. However, there are many Pentecostal Denom who DO exclude people. I have visited many such churches while I was dating my soon to be wife. After two or three visits they would start expecting me to not wear shorts, for the women to not cut their hair, wear makeup, or pants. I was even told one time to leave the church because I was growing a goatee at the time (This was before my Air Force days. ) I attended an Assemblies church while I was in tech school in Texas. I really enjoyed it, but deep down I knew that there was more than what I believed. (at the time)

 

[LegoGE1947]

I could never come up with the moment I was saved either. I grew up in a religous family and didn’t really have a dramatic “testimony”. I was infant baptized Missouri Synod, first prayed the Sinner’s Prayer at age four, chose to be baptized(not realizing what the infant baptism did) at age 7 in the Assemblies of God, and generally stumbled for quite some time after. I think if I had been aware of when I was saved though I would have stopped searching. So God used my uncertainty to bring good. Now this Easter I hope to join the Church and realize salvation is a process, not just an event and furthermore that justification/salvation doesn’t depend on feelings(I’m a habitual depressive). You’re right, it’s very reassuring

I also can’t depend on feelings since I have PTSD from my tour in the service during the Viet Nam era. Sometimes I feel “on top of the world” other times as if “the world is on top of me!” Being in a feelings oriented religious concept like Pentecostalism almost drove me to insanity and I’m so glad for God’s grace and all he did to get me out of it and into something solid. Congratulations on becoming a part of the “Tiber Swim Team”

 

[ltwin]

Perhaps the “Sinner’s Prayer” is not used by most Pentecostals. I know a Pentecostal lady at work who said it’s not specific enough:shrug: But overall I think the point stands. Lack of sacramental confession does not stop the urge or need for absolution. It just leads one to seek it in different ways.

The term “sinner’s prayer” might be used, but there is not single “sinner’s prayer.” It’s sort of just short hand for a prayer that a sinner (as in an unconverted person) prays after hearing the Gospel preached and being convicted by the Holy Spirit. It will usually hit all of these points:

1. Jesus, I’m a sinner
2. I know that you died for me on the cross and shed your blood so that I would be forgiven
3. I know that you rose from the grave
4. I make you Lord and Savior of my life
5. Please forgive me
6. etc.

It is a response to realizing that you are a sinner and without Christ you are lost. When one hears the Gospel for the first time and it penetrates your very soul, you truly understand how lost and captive by sin you are. You are convicted and grieved. But then you hear the Good News of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit draws you to himself and you respond by offering yourself as a living sacrifice. That is why sinners go to the altar to “get saved.” It’s at the altar that we give things to God, even ourselves.

There isn’t an exact formula, and it can be as simple as calling out to God “Save me.”

Off topic, do you know if the Assemblies of God baptizes for salvation?? If so I need to seek out my records. Thanks

I’m not AG, but I do know that they do not consider baptism salvific or regenerative. They do consider it important, Jesus commanded it after all.

If there were any baptismal records available, it would be done by that individual church. I suspect that most Pentecostal churches would not consider it important to keep exact baptismal records beyond statistical purposes.

 

[ltwin]

Itwin, I’m sure many Assemblies Churches as well as the Denom I was raised in (Church of God) do not exclude people. However, there are many Pentecostal Denom who DO exclude people. I have visited many such churches while I was dating my soon to be wife. After two or three visits they would start expecting me to not wear shorts, for the women to not cut their hair, wear makeup, or pants. I was even told one time to leave the church because I was growing a goatee at the time (This was before my Air Force days. ) I attended an Assemblies church while I was in tech school in Texas. I really enjoyed it, but deep down I knew that there was more than what I believed. (at the time)

When I was talking about “exclusion” it was in response to a specific theme: that of including the young and mentally ill. No Pentecostal church is going to exclude them from coming to Jesus.

I certainly realize that there are legalistic Pentecostal churches out there. I was not raised in that kind of Pentecostalism (thank God), and I would never defend that. There are churches that my mother and aunts (all Pentecostal) would be looked at with condemnation because they cut and style their heads and they wear pants. However, those are not the types of Pentecostal churches that are growing, and they lost the battle over the behavioral standards of Pentecostals decades ago.

 

[Izdaari]

I’ve heard that expression “backsliding” I was really blown away when I became Catholic and they didn’t require me to be rebaptised but accepted my baptism at an Assemby of God Church some 40 years ago because it was a trinitarian baptism. But I would suspect if it was the other way around (a Catholic converting to a Pentecostal group, they would require you to be rebaptised since they don’t even consider Catholicism to be “Christian”)

I beg to differ on that last part. I am an AG member, and we accept any trinitarian baptism by immersion as valid and satisfying the membership requirement. Doesn’t matter if it was Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox, so long as it was trinitarian and by immersion. We have had many former Catholics join, and some have had to (or chosen to) be re-baptized, but some did not. If they did have to, immersion was the issue, not Catholicism.

 

[Izdaari]

Itwin, I’m sure many Assemblies Churches as well as the Denom I was raised in (Church of God) do not exclude people. However, there are many Pentecostal Denom who DO exclude people. I have visited many such churches while I was dating my soon to be wife. After two or three visits they would start expecting me to not wear shorts, for the women to not cut their hair, wear makeup, or pants. I was even told one time to leave the church because I was growing a goatee at the time (This was before my Air Force days. ) I attended an Assemblies church while I was in tech school in Texas. I really enjoyed it, but deep down I knew that there was more than what I believed. (at the time)

My experience is quite different. I’m an AG member, and I attend our evening service, which is youth-oriented (though all ages attend) and “come as you are” casual, and I am a short haired, “soft butch” looking woman. In warm weather, I wear shorts, t-shirt or tank top, and sandals. Or in winter, biker boots, jeans and leather jacket. I have never gotten any negative comments on my appearance from any of my church people. Nor have I ever seen any one turned away because of how they were dressed.

Granted, I’m familiar with only my own Pentecostal church, never having attended any other, so of course YMMV.

 

[LegoGE1947]

My experience is quite different. I’m an AG member, and I attend our evening service, which is youth-oriented (though all ages attend) and “come as you are” casual, and I am a short haired, “soft butch” looking woman. In warm weather, I wear shorts, t-shirt or tank top, and sandals. Or in winter, biker boots, jeans and leather jacket. I have never gotten any negative comments on my appearance from any of my church people. Nor have I ever seen any one turned away because of how they were dressed.

Granted, I’m familiar with only my own Pentecostal church, never having attended any other, so of course YMMV.

It is a bit difficult to pay attention to the Mass or service when women come in dressed in an unusual way specially in warm weather:blush: I would not say anything because it is between the person and God how they want to look it’s just a little difficult when a person “lets it all hang out!” Just sayin’

 

[CopticChristian]

The term “sinner’s prayer” might be used, but there is not single “sinner’s prayer.” It’s sort of just short hand for a prayer that a sinner (as in an unconverted person) prays after hearing the Gospel preached and being convicted by the Holy Spirit. It will usually hit all of these points:

1. Jesus, I’m a sinner
2. I know that you died for me on the cross and shed your blood so that I would be forgiven
3. I know that you rose from the grave
4. I make you Lord and Savior of my life
5. Please forgive me
6. etc.

It is a response to realizing that you are a sinner and without Christ you are lost. When one hears the Gospel for the first time and it penetrates your very soul, you truly understand how lost and captive by sin you are. You are convicted and grieved. But then you hear the Good News of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit draws you to himself and you respond by offering yourself as a living sacrifice. That is why sinners go to the altar to “get saved.” It’s at the altar that we give things to God, even ourselves.

There isn’t an exact formula, and it can be as simple as calling out to God “Save me.”

I’m not AG, but I do know that they do not consider baptism salvific or regenerative. They do consider it important, Jesus commanded it after all.

If there were any baptismal records available, it would be done by that individual church. I suspect that most Pentecostal churches would not consider it important to keep exact baptismal records beyond statistical purposes.

This sounds like the weekly or monthly Sacrament of Confession/Reconcilliation that the Catholics do…

ceptin we hear the gospel every time we got to mass and thensome…not just once…

n we go to the altar and get God…

 

[ltwin]

This sounds like the weekly or monthly Sacrament of Confession/Reconcilliation that the Catholics do…

I suppose it could be compared to that; though, I would think that confession/reconciliation would be much more parallel to the regular and ongoing prayers for forgiveness that Pentecostals pray. I’m not exactly sure if there is a similar experience in Catholicism to the Pentecostal conversion experience. Let me know if there is.

ceptin we hear the gospel every time we got to mass and thensome…not just once…

Well, its not like you only hear the Gospel once in a lifetime in the Pentecostal Church . You hear the Gospel preached every time there is an altar call.

n we go to the altar and get God…

Yes, I think Pentecostals do think of the altar as a place where they can meet with God. I suppose it could be considered something like a confessional booth. People do confess sins there. They also go there with their problems and burdens and when they get up after “praying through” they have metaphorically left those burdens at the altar. It is a place where spiritual commitments are made.

While I don’t do it much anymore, during my high school years I would find myself at the altar a lot. Sometimes it was because I was battling sin or just feeling distant from God. Other times I just felt overwhelmed with problems. I would kneel at the altar, and it is just a natural place to just pour out your heart to God. All the frustrations and the fears and the doubt. Looking back now, it was definitely a form of divine therapy.

 

[LegoGE1947]

I suppose it could be compared to that; though, I would think that confession/reconciliation would be much more parallel to the regular and ongoing prayers for forgiveness that Pentecostals pray. I’m not exactly sure if there is a similar experience in Catholicism to the Pentecostal conversion experience. Let me know if there is.

Well, its not like you only hear the Gospel once in a lifetime in the Pentecostal Church . You hear the Gospel preached every time there is an altar call.

Yes, I think Pentecostals do think of the altar as a place where they can meet with God. I suppose it could be considered something like a confessional booth. People do confess sins there. They also go there with their problems and burdens and when they get up after “praying through” they have metaphorically left those burdens at the altar. It is a place where spiritual commitments are made.

While I don’t do it much anymore, during my high school years I would find myself at the altar a lot. Sometimes it was because I was battling sin or just feeling distant from God. Other times I just felt overwhelmed with problems. I would kneel at the altar, and it is just a natural place to just pour out your heart to God. All the frustrations and the fears and the doubt. Looking back now, it was definitely a form of divine therapy.
As a former pentecostal I never felt anything “theraputic” by coming and kneeling in front of the platform. It was only the one Sunday before Catholic Confirmation that they had something called “scrutinies” where all the people in RCIA came to the altar, knelt, and the priest went down the line and prayed a very simple, quiet prayer while laying hands on each person’s head that I actually experienced healing in my soul. It was so different from having some preacher lay hands on my head and scream at the top of his lungs at the “demon” that was allegedly in me!

 

[ltwin]

As a former pentecostal I never felt anything “theraputic” by coming and kneeling in front of the platform. It was only the one Sunday before Catholic Confirmation that they had something called “scrutinies” where all the people in RCIA came to the altar, knelt, and the priest went down the line and prayed a very simple, quiet prayer while laying hands on each person’s head that I actually experienced healing in my soul. It was so different from having some preacher lay hands on my head and scream at the top of his lungs at the “demon” that was allegedly in me!

That’s interesting about the demons. Were you a confessing Christian at the time? My understanding (which is based in classical Pentecostalism) is that Christians cannot be demon possessed, only oppressed. Seems like this church you were in had an unhealthy focus on the demonic.

I have witnessed prayers which would say something like “we rebuke you satan,” or “in the name of Jesus, satan, take your hands off of God’s child,” or “we bind you satan,” etc. But the assumption is that the person is being tried by the devil and is wrestling against an attack of the enemy, not that the devil has taken possession of the individual.

 

[Izdaari]

It is a bit difficult to pay attention to the Mass or service when women come in dressed in an unusual way specially in warm weather:blush: I would not say anything because it is between the person and God how they want to look it’s just a little difficult when a person “lets it all hang out!” Just sayin’

But I did mention the eventing service at my church is youth oriented and “come as you are” casual. At my church, the way I dress is not unusual, and blends into the crowd. If I were visiting another, more formal, church, I would of course respect their customary mode of attire. I don’t want to be a distraction.

 

[LegoGE1947]

That’s interesting about the demons. Were you a confessing Christian at the time? My understanding (which is based in classical Pentecostalism) is that Christians cannot be demon possessed, only oppressed. Seems like this church you were in had an unhealthy focus on the demonic.

I have witnessed prayers which would say something like “we rebuke you satan,” or “in the name of Jesus, satan, take your hands off of God’s child,” or “we bind you satan,” etc. But the assumption is that the person is being tried by the devil and is wrestling against an attack of the enemy, not that the devil has taken possession of the individual.

Yes I was a confessing Christian. and yes, I now believe the community I was attending had an unhealthy focus on the demonic, also on the “prosperity” gospel as proclaimed by so many tv evangelists. Also speaking in tongues as evidence of being “Spirit filled” and many other things I won’t mention because just thinking of them makes me sick at my stomach. I left that place not knowing what to believe after attending there for about 7 years. Also my two boys went to a summer camp through that “church” and one of them was sexually molested.

 

[ltwin]

Yes I was a confessing Christian. and yes, I now believe the community I was attending had an unhealthy focus on the demonic, also on the “prosperity” gospel as proclaimed by so many tv evangelists. Also speaking in tongues as evidence of being “Spirit filled” and many other things I won’t mention because just thinking of them makes me sick at my stomach. I left that place not knowing what to believe after attending there for about 7 years. Also my two boys went to a summer camp through that “church” and one of them was sexually molested.

Very sorry to hear that.

 

[LegoGE1947]

But I did mention the eventing service at my church is youth oriented and “come as you are” casual. At my church, the way I dress is not unusual, and blends into the crowd. If I were visiting another, more formal, church, I would of course respect their customary mode of attire. I don’t want to be a distraction.

I have seen church services on tv where the dress code is obviously “come as you are” such as “Redemption with Ron Carpenter” Even Rev Carpenter himself dresses very casually .

 

[ltwin]

I have seen church services on tv where the dress code is obviously “come as you are” such as “Redemption with Ron Carpenter” Even Rev Carpenter himself dresses very casually .

I’m in South Carolina, so Carpenter’s church is well known in my area. Some of the leadership of my church consciously look to RWOC’s ministry model.