People please help me with this one before I go insane

[GatorMommy]

Not true, imo. Some people are so anti-Catholic, that any information that seems to support the validity of the Church makes them extremely angry.
…
The truth about Catholicism doesn’t sit well with a lot of people. Extreme anger toward the messenger is a very common reaction. At least we’re not being crucified for spreading the truth.

So very true. As my grandma used to say, “If I had a dollar for everytime” I encountered this type of behavior I would have nice little savings put aside.

Heck, I have been dealing with one of these anti-Catholic loons for nearly two years on one of my blogs.

 

[Righteousone]

“Lost her soul”? Because she sinned? I kind of doubt it. When we try to apply apologetics to someone who obviously has been wounded, we are, in essence trying to remove whatever “faith” they may have left. When they in turn say things to us in anger, that they may not really mean, to continue to “preach” to them at that time would be fruitless. We don’t have to defend the Catholic church everytime someone challenges it. If the Catholic Church will “prevail against the gates of hell”, She won’t miss our not defending Her one time. This person needs time to heal and prayers. To confront her with the attempt to destroy what faith she has left will not win her back. Did not Jesus speak in “parables so all would understand”? If this person does not return to her original faith then that matter is between she and God. Any outright attempts to convert her will seem arrogant at best. If her views offend you, be courteous and leave. If her “apologetics” stun you, be genuinely courteous and talk about what the two faiths have in common. Bite your tongue and go your own way. And don’t forget to keep her in your prayers.

Apologetics?? she has none…it is simply quotes and that’s it. And they are quotes that don’t even make sense. I can’t be bothered with her anymore. God will finish the rest.

 

[Salamander]

Just as one poster already said, I would take a site’s content with a grain of salt if it has ‘bible’ on it’s site name.

Plus, you know how the media knows next to nil about religion, so whenever the media says something about Catholicism (‘crow’s ear’ anyone?), I would also take it with a grain of salt…

With so many individuals calling themselves “Righteous”, I would also, take that, with a grain of salt…whilst I spoon it up with my Bible-God’s Word!

You are correct, as you say in John 20, that Jesus gave the disciples the commission to forgive sins. But, that is as far as it goes. Keep it in context. He wants us to forgive as He forgave, but we do not have the power to wipe away the sins of others, only to forgive sins committed against us. God forgives through His Son’s blood…His blood is the propitiation for sin, not some prayer by a man or woman in a robe.

 

[Elric]

People, please stop telling me that I provoked her, or that I’m not telling the whole story. As God as my judge, she acted like a demon when I told her where her bible comes from. Do you think any Protestant would be happy after hearing that? Apparently she is being taught hatred against the Catholic church and they probably tell her to talk over anyone who even mentions the Catholics and their teaching. Anyway, it was NOT about winning an arguement, but telling the truth about my Catholic church.

This and other posts that you have made pretty much confirm that you are not telling the whole story.

I dont doubt that she “acted like a demon” when you told her where her bible came from (that part is quite interesting). But I simply cant believe that she did this with no provokation on your part, especally after your comments about planning this.

The mere fact that you are adding more information with extra posts shows that you are not telling the whole story.

“Do you think any Protestant would be happy after hearing that?”

Any?

Yes they probably would be, I vaguely remember a couple on this message board saying something to that effect. It would also depend on how you tell them.

Every?

No.

Now you say that it wasnt about winning the “argument”, it was about defending your faith.

So how exactly does that go when someone is “beet red”, swearing, calling you names, acting like a demon ect?

It doesnt, there is no “argument” when it gets to that stage, there is no “defending of faith”. The best thing to do is to stop the “argument” because it isnt going anywhere (which quite obviously, it didnt) and the woman is clearly so agitated/upset that she is embarassing herself.

So why didnt you stop the “argument”?

Did you want her to embarrass herself, was that part of the plan?

 

[LilyM]

With so many individuals calling themselves “Righteous”, I would also, take that, with a grain of salt…whilst I spoon it up with my Bible-God’s Word!

You are correct, as you say in John 20, that Jesus gave the disciples the commission to forgive sins. But, that is as far as it goes. Keep it in context. He wants us to forgive as He forgave, but we do not have the power to wipe away the sins of others, only to forgive sins committed against us. God forgives through His Son’s blood…His blood is the propitiation for sin, not some prayer by a man or woman in a robe.

And what do you think the means are that Christ has chosen to make that sacrifice of His apparent to us and applicable to us? We’re human, we need cues and signs that are apparent to the senses to reassure us of His presence and to anifest His sacraments.

Why do you think He commands the Apostles to do such things as celebrate the Eucharist, baptise people and so forth? For that matter, why are you presuming that ‘whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven’ doesn’t mean exactly that? Why presume only a limited ability to forgive when He places no such limit upon it?

More importantly, how on earth do you explain their power to RETAIN sins? How could any man dare to say to another that they are unforgiven unless they are empowered to speak in God’s name from Whom forgiveness comes?

Do you truly think that Christ was only making the completely bleeding obvious and tautological statement that when we forgive people’s sins we forgive them and when we don’t we don’t? That is precisely what you’ve reduced this important commision to.

Knowing as we do, however, that He was in fact speaking of extending GOD’S forgiveness to men through the Apostles, why then did He limit the power to forgive sins in His name to His Apostles only, and not all His disciples? Only makes sense if it’s because He had chosen to use them as a visible and limited priesthood through which to make Himself available to us, just as the Jews had their Aaronic priests?

If the Apostles were priests because people around them needed such, why would you say there is no need for priests NOW? What makes us different from the Christians of Apostolic times in that they needed priests and we don’t?

 

[wardrandolph]

uch: …LilyM,I agree.

 

[Pier]

uch: …LilyM,I agree.

Me too. Plus it’s a topic for a different thread, not this one.

 

[elt1956]

“you can win an argument, and lose a soul”

Patrick Madrid

I remember debating a protestant over the same issues presented in this thread, and I had talked him down to where he couldn’t refute anything I said, but he wasn’t about to believe me. I was telling some friends about it at the Catholic Campus Center, and the priest overheard me. He asked me if our debate generated Heat or Light. and then he walked away. He had a good point.

Any professional apologist will tell you the point is not to win the argument. Its to plant the seeds of truth, and hopefully they will sprout and grow under God’s grace.

Even if you are right, there’s not to many people that will admit that to your face, at least not right away. You have to let them take it home, research it, pray about it, and let God handle the rest.

How many times can I say AMEN, AMEN to this post. Peace.

 

[Pier]

This most certainly helps as others have helped me here…I cannot say “I heard”, it’s just not right. I must say “it is an historical fact”…
If she can’t face the truth, it isn’t my problem.

You can preface your statement by saying, “Well, you are entitled to your opinions (by way of God’s gift of free will), but they aren’t backed up by historical fact.”

Do try to quell your annoyance and remain calm by asking for Christ’s peace when these conversations begin. A priest once told me to avoid these conversations if I was going to get angry, so when it happened again (with one person in particular), I thought twice before I began speaking. Then I started with, “I guess I have to expect this, as the Bible says we will be persecuted for Christ’s sake.”…

It halted the conversation right in its tracks.

 

[elt1956]

“you can win an argument, and lose a soul”

Patrick Madrid

I remember debating a protestant over the same issues presented in this thread, and I had talked him down to where he couldn’t refute anything I said, but he wasn’t about to believe me. I was telling some friends about it at the Catholic Campus Center, and the priest overheard me. He asked me if our debate generated Heat or Light. and then he walked away. He had a good point.

Any professional apologist will tell you the point is not to win the argument. Its to plant the seeds of truth, and hopefully they will sprout and grow under God’s grace.

Even if you are right, there’s not to many people that will admit that to your face, at least not right away. You have to let them take it home, research it, pray about it, and let God handle the rest.

BTW, she has already lost her soul to have had the truth in the Catholic church and then to turn away from it…Jesus said to know the truth and turn away to another is a sin.

Dear Righteous, she’s not dead yet, so HOPE should exist.

 

[Righteousone]

Salamander, who re you to judge me? you’ve slammed me several times on this thread telling me the strory isn’t the whole story…face the fact that the girl is a “kook” and misled from her Catholic church.
As soon as I told her where her bible came from, she turned. Perhaps it is you also that can’t face the historical truth of that either.
And when i said I had it planned, I meant if she ever brings this mumbo jumbo **** up again, I would intervene.
These are the people one must encounter when dealing with 30,000 denominations of Protestanism. I think it’s contagious.

 

[Righteousone]

Dear Righteous, she’s not dead yet, so HOPE should exist.

Oh but she is dead in her heart. If she should realize the truth from where she came, she’d be alive once again.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Oh but she is dead in her heart. If she should realize the truth from where she came, she’d be alive once again.

It is not for us to judge what is in another person’s heart. Only God can do that.

 

[Contarini]

Contarini;354496:

infallibly

know which books of the Bible belong in Scripture in the first place?

I don’t. Why do you think I need to?

This is a dead horse that has been beaten enough. It always comes down to the fact that everyone at some point makes a fallible decision to accept an infallible authority. Infallibility doesn’t function in a foundationalist way. Such a position invariably falls apart.

Edwin

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Everyone here has been so good to me and came to my rescue that I feel a little emotional because I haven’t been the most charitable to some on this forum. :crying: I would like to apologize to anyone whom I’ve offended, especially Valke, Lily and the others who are non-Catholic Christians. I just get compelled then simply say whatever comes to mind…I will try and be more charitable here BUT IT’S SO HARD…I promise I will…

Righteousone,

I know you have a good heart. You love the Lord and you love others. You are zealous for your faith and that’s not a bad thing. It’s how you bring your message of your love for the Lord that makes a difference. I personally haven’t always been the most charitable myself.

I forgive you as long as you forgive me, deal? We had a few rounds a while back about exorcisms, remember?

Peace be upon you…

MW

 

[Righteousone]

Righteousone,

I know you have a good heart. You love the Lord and you love others. You are zealous for your faith and that’s not a bad thing. It’s how you bring your message of your love for the Lord that makes a difference. I personally haven’t always been the most charitable myself.

I forgive you as long as you forgive me, deal? We had a few rounds a while back about exorcisms, remember?

Peace be upon you…

MW

Yes, I know how I am, but something compels me to Evangelize aggressively. I found it worked for me in the past. Especially after converting a girl who believed in Wicca and wouldn’t listen to anyone. I simply told her to read this book and she called me crying and converted to Catholicism right there.
I have met people who like my style because it is forthright and to the point. I don’t sugar coat anything, or appear to have this wishy washy effect on people. The holy Spirit guides me and that’s that.

 

[vocatio]

These are truly the BEST answers. Thank you for coming to my aid. You all guessed it, that she WAS a Catholic and wandered off.
Her gripe with me was about the bible and where we got it. She insists that God dropped it down from heaven…she refuses to believe the church came before the NT…I am spiritually exhausted.
I in no way tried to sway her back to the faith, it was simply about the bible. It is scary what these people are being taught in these churches. The anger, her face was beat red, almost like satan was saying these things… I didn’t mean to rile her up, I just know my history. (of my church).

These answers are great, I will print them out.

I have an entire family through my wife’s side. The most vicious anti-Catholics are those who have left the faith for a Fundamentalist church. I was that 18 years ago…I bow my head in shame…I even went to the seminary. You begin to believe the anti-Cahtolic rhetoric and to make things worse…if you had some really bad experience…sexual deviants trying to take advantage of inocense, then you have a monster that builds up. It’s actually an act of self-preservation and your approach is way off base.

Pray, NOVENA…Divine Mercy, get some of the CA pamphlets and hand them to her. Ask her question…by playing stupid. Most Catholic believe like I did, Catholics know nothing.

I make it my work to pray for such people all the time. Pray that God will soften their hearts. Bring a miracle in their life. Information only works so far. The rest is grace, prayer, sometimes being broken. You come across as an agressor. If she was ever violated sexually she’ll most likely shut you out, as she should for self-preservation. Ask her questions, but don’t go out of your way unless she invites you.

 

[PetersKeys]

Today I had a debate with a Protestant from a church called “The Bridge of Christ” or something like that. She said that I was crazy in telling her that her bible came from the Catholic church, that it was compiled by the Roman Pontiff in 397 A.D. at the Councl of Carthage.
Well, I never heard such hatred toward me with her name calling and saying that I was the one who was a kook for saying this. She went on and on, quoting Scripture, everything was the bible, bible, bible. I tried to tell her about the Catacombs with their early church writings on the wall from the saints, and about the Early Church Fathers. She simply called me a f------jerk and said satan was attacking me. Even tho I told her sola scripture was not biblical, she refused to think anything else. She was so angry that I couldn’t believe she could act as she did. I was calm and just told her historical facts, then she said “screw history”. What else can convince her that our church is the one and only church? I am xhausted from telling her the same old thing, you know, 2,000 years in existence, unbroken link…is there anything else I can do to basically shut her up and start thinking about it?
Please don’t say it’s hopeless, i will see her again. Thanks.

Heretics tend to be very obstinant people. If you don’t follow their intereperatation then well, you can just off a cliff as far as there concerned.

She will have to give an account for her heresy and pridefullness before God however.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Yes, I know how I am, but something compels me to Evangelize aggressively. I found it worked for me in the past. Especially after converting a girl who believed in Wicca and wouldn’t listen to anyone. I simply told her to read this book and she called me crying and converted to Catholicism right there.
I have met people who like my style because it is forthright and to the point. I don’t sugar coat anything, or appear to have this wishy washy effect on people. The holy Spirit guides me and that’s that.

And that’s okay. I’ve done the same thing aggressively and caused a lot of ill feelings with people I cared about. Keep evangelizing. You will see some come to know Jesus. As long as the Holy Spirit is guiding you, you can’t go wrong. Go in the peace of God, friend.

Peace…

MW

 

[Righteousone]

And that’s okay. I’ve done the same thing aggressively and caused a lot of ill feelings with people I cared about. Keep evangelizing. You will see some come to know Jesus. As long as the Holy Spirit is guiding you, you can’t go wrong. Go in the peace of God, friend.

Peace…

MW

Thanks Mystic…are you sure we had a run in threads ago? you seem awfully kind and patient…