"People shouldn't force their belief on others"

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Chrisy58

By it’s nature - it is impossible to “force a belief on someone else”. Now what I think you mean is that we shouldn’t tell people how to think or what values to have. Or maybe you are saying that we should not challenge another’s values?
 
Chrisy58,

What if your neighbor decided that is was ok to view child pornography and it was not against the law. I know this is an extreme example, but legality is not the issue as you imply from your post - it’s whether or not “you have made up your mind on the issue”.

From your position - you would not speak out or try to convince you neighbor otherwise.
 
Dismas2004 said:
Chrisy58

By it’s nature - it is impossible to “force a belief on someone else”. Now what I think you mean is that we shouldn’t tell people how to think or what values to have. Or maybe you are saying that we should not challenge another’s values?
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I am not saying that we can’t debate the issues. I have a blog and people post comments and sometimes we debate topics such as climate change, etc. I just don’t think we can force people to think as we think. Like the old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him/her drink. Part of debating someone is challenging their ideas and values.

At the same time, if same sex marriage is legal by the state those people are not breaking the civil law. So if something is legal and people are not breaking the law of the state, but we as Catholics believe in the church’s teaching that it is a sin to be in a homosexual relationship let alone to marry, do we have the right to burn them at the stake. Do we have the right in the name of God to commit an act of violence toward them in the name of God? Isn’t it better to pray and allow God to work to bring people to the point that they themselves will not choose homosexually or to marry someone of the same sex?

I am still trying to sort out how I feel about this issue so if I seem confused, I will be the first one to admit I am. This is an issue that I think we as Catholics have to decide how we feel on this issue because I think more and more states are going to legalize same sex marriage.
 
Dismas2004 said:
Chrisy58,

What if your neighbor decided that is was ok to view child pornography and it was not against the law. I know this is an extreme example, but legality is not the issue as you imply from your post - it’s whether or not “you have made up your mind on the issue”.

From your position - you would not speak out or try to convince you neighbor otherwise.
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Child pornography is against the law. In many states same sex marriage is lawful. I am talking about issues that the state finds lawful, but the church finds sinful.

There is a difference between one stating how they believe and living out their faith and forcing their will on someone else and condoning their hate in the name of God. Is it right that some Christians commit violence in the name of God because they feel abortion is wrong? Abortion is wrong, but does that justify murder?

I believe the most powerful weapon that we have as Catholics is prayer and being true to our faith. We win more people with honey than judgement. Harsh judgement and condemnation only drives people far away and makes them not want to listen to what we say. We are to hate the sin but love the sinner.
 
Archbishop Chaput put it quit pointedly and correctly in Render Unto Caesar by Doubleday 2008.

“People who take God seriously will not remain silent about their faith. They will often disagree about doctrine or policy, but they won’t be quiet. They can’t be. They’ll act on what they believe, sometimes at the cost of their reputations and careers. Obviously the common good demands a respect for other people with different beliefs and a willingness to compromise whenever possible. But for Catholics, the common good can never mean muting themselves in public debate on foundational issues of faith or human dignity. Christian faith is always personal but never private. This is why any notion of tolerance that tries to reduce faith to a private idiosyncrasy, or a set of opinions that we can indulge at home but need to be quiet about in public, will always fail. As a friend once said, it’s like asking a married man to act single in public. He can certainly do that - but he won’t stay married for long” (p.10)
 
Chrisy58 said:
Child pornography is against the law. In many states same sex marriage is lawful. I am talking about issues that the state finds lawful, but the church finds sinful.

There is a difference between one stating how they believe and living out their faith and forcing their will on someone else and condoning their hate in the name of God. Is it right that some Christians commit violence in the name of God because they feel abortion is wrong? Abortion is wrong, but does that justify murder?

I believe the most powerful weapon that we have as Catholics is prayer and being true to our faith. We win more people with honey than judgement. Harsh judgement and condemnation only drives people far away and makes them not want to listen to what we say. We are to hate the sin but love the sinner.
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You are right - prayer is the most important and powerful weapon we have against Satan. But it is not the only one. God has called us to act. It’s like my grandmothers religion instructor would do after they prayer for vocations - he would say “Now some of you must answer that call”

What if child pornography was legal - would you feel the same. No - there’s natural law. This issue at hand is whether or not to enter into public debate, or dialogue on a personal level as to the issues.

Proclaiming the truth is just that - if the truth condemns someone then they are acting or believing a lie - should we “change” the truth for their convenience?

Yes - hate the sin - that means telling it like is is - sin is always ugly. We don’t need to be quite about that. However, we must do it in a way that is loving to the person.
What most people “feel” though is that because we condemn the sin we condemn the person. As you said,“There is a difference between one stating how they believe and living out their faith and forcing their will on someone else and condoning their hate in the name of God. Is it right that some Christians commit violence in the name of God because they feel abortion is wrong? Abortion is wrong, but does that justify murder?”
Yes the murder of Dr. Tiller was just that - and I’ve argued that on these very forums.

However, keep in mind the words you choose, “forcing their will on someone else” - for ex. homosexual behavior is a sin - are you suggesting that making it illegal to marry a man to a man or a woman to a woman is wrong?
 
Chrisy58 said:
I am not saying that we can’t debate the issues. I have a blog and people post comments and sometimes we debate topics such as climate change, etc. I just don’t think we can force people to think as we think. Like the old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him/her drink. Part of debating someone is challenging their ideas and values.

At the same time, if same sex marriage is legal by the state those people are not breaking the civil law. So if something is legal and people are not breaking the law of the state, but we as Catholics believe in the church’s teaching that it is a sin to be in a homosexual relationship let alone to marry, do we have the right to burn them at the stake. Do we have the right in the name of God to commit an act of violence toward them in the name of God? Isn’t it better to pray and allow God to work to bring people to the point that they themselves will not choose homosexually or to marry someone of the same sex?

I am still trying to sort out how I feel about this issue so if I seem confused, I will be the first one to admit I am. This is an issue that I think we as Catholics have to decide how we feel on this issue because I think more and more states are going to legalize same sex marriage.
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I’m not saying “burn them at the stake” - those are your words not mine and a blanket generalization for anyone that believes as I do and is faithful to the Church. Just because it is legal - that doesn’t make it moral. Euthanasia is allowed in some states but it is not moral. Whose law makes that determination - the US law or the another country’s law?

Morality is not regional - it’s universal. Going back to my original question which you have not answered yet - What if child pornography is allowed in the US, or some other country - is it moral?

I’m challenging you here - 🙂 You see - we shouldn’t just pray, we need to educate ourselves and engage people in personal dialogue without attacks and judgment.

Last point - it doesn’t really matter how you “feel” about the issue - it’s a matter of what you think about the issue - is it moral or not? Feelings cloud judgment - there are many well intentions people out there that “feel” vaccines cause Autism despite all the scientific evidence from all of the world that shows there is no causal link between the two. Feelings can keep us from the truth - just look at Judas.
 
Child pornography is nor could it ever be moral. As someone who was sexually abused as a child and still suffers from the emotional scares, I resent that someone would think that I would support it. It is not legal nor do I think America as far down the sewer we have come would ever make it legal. I suffer PTSD because of things that I was forced to do and see in this life. If you don’t know what PTSD is, it is living in hell. Is that clear enough for you.

You are comparing apples with oranges, because child sex will never be legal in this country as I just don’t believe Americans have sunk so low as to think that children being forced into sexual acts is a good thing. When terrible things happen to a child and they develop PTSD they blame the place because they can’t seperate the person from the place.

I am only talking about things that the state has ruled as legal and the church says is sin. Someone quoted render under Ceaser the things that are Ceaser. I also read in the Bible that we are to obey the Laws of the Land and to pray for our government. If the Laws of the land declare something legal than I don’t feel that we have a right to in the name of God commit violence against that person. At the same time I am uncomfortable with some of the Laws being passed in this nation. I think a lot of Catholics are confused because we love our nation and our country but we also have a strong faith and love our church. Though it seems like you can’t understand those feelings. You seem to just want to make it seem like I and anyone else who is trying to decide how they feel on the issue of Gay marriage is condoning sexual child pervision.

There is nothing wrong with us stating why we believe something in the public square. I do have a problem when it is taken the next step when in the name of God one commits murder. You laugh and joke about burning at the stake, but it is no joke. As I said I have been very abused in this life and suffer PTSD because of it. There was a period of my time when I got angry at the church because of the double standard between a rich Catholic and a poor Catholic and the church not making the rich catholic do the right thing and say he was sorry to the poor Catholic who by his actions cause suffering. I met a man who said he was a CI pastor in Oregon. He used to abuse me very badly. If he asked me a question and he didn’t like the answer he would duck tape my mouth. HE would beat me with a paddle until I would cry and I would be mad at myself for crying so he would stop beating me. He hated Catholics. He believed in CI which if you don’t know is the Christianity of White Nationalists. I couldn’t believe as he believed. I wouldn’t let him rebaptize me. HE would say I was rebellous and say rebellion is the same as witchcraft and that we burn witches. So you see there are so called Christians who still believe in burning people they brand as witches today. It may be a joke to you, but if I hadn’t found a way to leave him I know that he would have killed me in the name of his God. He said we were married, but I found out later it was not a real marriage. So I had this man saying I was married to him and the priest saying I wasn’t married to him. I am just trying to decide things for myself. I am not allowing people to tell me what to believe anymore.

I personally do not think homosexually is a healthy life style. I think it goes against nature and how God created us. Yet, once a state that we live in declares it legal for two gays to get married I am trying to decide what is the best way to handle the situation.

I was leaning that if a state declares it legal than being that Jesus said we are to respect the laws of the nation that I would continue to feel the way I do, but I wouldn’t stand up and speak out against it. I love Massachusetts as I used to live there and I dream of going back home. They had this so called prom, but in reality it was a sexual indoctration of the children. They had a host called Mr. Leather a middle age gay man who is into BDSM and giving the kids cards about this BDSM class. Now I am coming to the conclusion that saying that gays can marry is leading to other sexual perversions that no Catholic I don’t think can support. Maybe gay marriage because they don’t believe in traditional values is destroying the family values that have made this country great.

If I a Catholic can’t sort out my feelings on this issue so that I can decide for myself on this Catholic board without being made to feel guilty for stating my feelings than that is very sad too. I am sure I am not the only Catholic in America who is trying to decide for themselves how they feel about this issue that is facing us today as more and more states legalize marriage.

I don’t know if I will answer you again or not. With the PTSD I tend to get very emotional at times. I have a lot of feelings that I need to work out and some feelings that I keep buried because I don’t want to deal with them. I know what it is like to be judged harshly by people who only see the outside and not the heart of the person and why they do certain things. I also know that Jesus loves me and loves all of us, and that he doesn’t judge. I tend to not judge people, but try to love them as Christ loves them. I don’t give up on them and I don’t write them off, but leave everything to the Lord. Prayer is a very powerful weapon and is very important to me. I just take one day at a time. Since I have found my way home to the Catholic Church it has been a struggle sometimes to see so much harsh judgements of others within the church, but I am still a practicing Catholic. I pray my rosary everyday and the chaplet of Divine Mercy. Prayer is what is keeping me in the church so yes, for me prayer is the most important part of my Catholic walk.

As I said I may not post for a while.

Christine
 
Since most people end up with the faith of their parents, I would use the word “trained” not forced.
 
Only love will help lead others to the faith and a relationship with Christ. Love doesn’t try to force, but rather gently shares the faith, through words, actions, etc…I think that if we try to force our beliefs on others, it will be counterproductive, and make us appear hypocritical, actually. God doesn’t force Himself on us, interestingly enough, so we are to follow suit, and practice love and compassion, to help lead people to the faith. Just my two cents. 🙂
 
Dismas2004 said:
Feelings cloud judgment - there are many well intentions people out there that “feel” vaccines cause Autism despite all the scientific evidence from all of the world that shows there is no causal link between the two. Feelings can keep us from the truth - just look at Judas.
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My last post for awhile as I am getting really emotional.

I don’t believe that those of us who think that the scientific evidence shows that the link between all the childhood shots that had mercury in them and autism is not a far fetched as you seem to think. Those children have had to deal with a lot more health problems. When I was a child we didn’t have near the shots that these kids had and we were a healthy generation. These children have so many more shots and some children react.

Tell that to the parents who had a child who had a reaction to those shots that his feelings and personal knowledge of their child is keeping them from that truth and you comparing them to Judas. You are the one who brought this topic and the name Judas into the debate.

I suppose you don’t believe in Climate Change either or developing renewable energy sources is good for the country. I suppose you think that there is such a thing as clean coal and so you want to continue Mountaintop Removal Mining. Do you believe in Drill baby drill is way to go? Do you believe that part of being a good Catholic is by being a good steward and caregiver of the earth and all of God’s creation?

Children are one of the most beautiful gifts that God gives us, and putting all those chemicals into their bodies I don’t think is the best thing for them. Some children do react to the shots. I think you are being judgemental on the parents who believe in their heart that all those shots made their child sick.
 
StrawberryJam said:
Since most people end up with the faith of their parents, I would use the word “trained” not forced.
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“Americans change religious affiliation early and often. In total, about half of American adults have changed religious affiliation at least once during their lives. Most people who change their religion leave their childhood faith before age 24, and many of those who change religion do so more than once.” (Faith in Flux)
 
RebeccaJ said:
“Americans change religious affiliation early and often. In total, about half of American adults have changed religious affiliation at least once during their lives. Most people who change their religion leave their childhood faith before age 24, and many of those who change religion do so more than once.” (Faith in Flux)
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I’m wondering how they are using the term religious affiliation, and “change” religion here.
Are they considering a person who changes from one christian denomination to another to be “changing religion”? Because, I would like to see stats that claim there is actual religion hopping and not simply denomination hopping going on.🙂
 
yellowbicycle said:
I hear this alot.
And I don’t get it.
If a person really and truly thinks that my actions will ETERNALLY separate me from all that is good and beautiful, and that person really and truly loves me, then they SHOULD be trying to convert me, right?
I certainly wouldn’t want any of my loved ones to end up in eternal damnation.
Furthermore, how is a JW knocking at my door, or my Aunt Sally telling me that if I don’t go to Mass she won’t bake me a pumpkin pie ‘forcing’?
So, why do people get all uppity when someone ‘forces’ their beliefs on them?
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Family is one thing, particularly when done in love. We need to respect the rights of strangers, however; furthermore it might not be very effective if they are not receptive at the time. Best to pray for them and for the Holy Spirit to guide you when the time is right.
 
Dismas2004 said:
We live in confused times. People often say “Don’t force your beliefs on me” when what they mean to say is “Please don’t challenge my beliefs!”

You are quite correct - if we believe we have the true means of salvation and if we truly love our neighbor we not only should but have a duty to share the love of Christ with others!

If more people, especially parents would do that with their own children, then we wouldn’t have 85% of our college students stop practicing their faith each year.
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Amen!👍

When I think of “forcing a belief on someone”, I think of isolating someone from dissident ideas of all kinds and threatening him/her with terrible consequences if s/he doesn’t accept my beliefs. Hmm… where does that sound familiar from? Something’s coming back to me from school, I think it was, something about secular humanism…how the world would destroy itself if we didn’t hurry and spread the antireligion ideas while we were young, and how it would be wrong to expose us to other viewpoints…
Anyway, street or door-to-door evangelism does nothing of the kind. When people try to isolate the public from hearing my beliefs, they are trying to use isolation; when they try to insinuate terrible and false things about my beliefs, they are trying to use fear tactics. They are therefore using force – we are not. We are just communicating what our beliefs are and presenting the case for them.
I have no dread of closing my door; therefore, a JW at the door holds no threat over me and cannot possibly force anything on me. If I’m curious I pause and discuss what the JW wants to talk about. If not, I say, no, thank you, and close the door gently. No force anywhere. When someone runs toward me on the street and shouts that I’m going to Hell if I don’t join his group, I don’t believe it, because I think I have strong reasons to disagree. I can engage him on the topic or skip the opportunity. It’s my choice. He doesn’t have me tied to a radiator in a basement somewhere blindfolded, and he can’t control me. 🤷 No force there either.
 
I’ll take this thread as forcing your catholic belief to a noncatholic. Did I get it right? One of the greatest gift God has given us is our free will. From the very beginning of human history, God never forced obedience to our first parents. We have to decide for ourselves what we wanted. Forcing our belief/faith to others sometime is self defeating. Rather than bringing them in, we drive them out. “Respect” for others is the role of the game especially when it comes to faith or belief. It work very well. With mutual respect, trust can be developed. This way line of communication might be opened. Often JW knock at my door evangelizing. I’ll simply tell them I’m a catholic I tell them I wish they will respect my belief as I respected theirs (I know I can’t argue with them, they are well versed in the bible). They simply say good bye. Or start a new topic of conversation. I had a conversation with a priest. He said that though religions are not the same, righteousness is. There are a lot of protestants who are more righteous than some catholics. In other words, religion will not save us. Sometime we make the mistake of judging other people’s belief based on ours. It has been my practice to offer my opinion when being asked, but never force my opinion to anybody. If you want to invite a certain person to the catholic faith, be very diplomatic and pray a lot for that person. Ask the Holy Spirit for help. We cannot change the heart of anybody, but the Holy Spirit can. The way we act and treat other people can be very effective in evangelizing. Probably others will start thinking there’s something good in the Catholic faith. Watch the video of Mr. Patrick Madrid, “Search and Rescue”.
 
I have just read through all the comments and found this a most interesting thread . Forcing your beliefs on others, is used by people in public life, I believe, to make Christians feel that they ought not even to discuss their faith with others. The comment can be used to stifle discussion and debate. However, I agree that simple dialogue, or stating what your faith is, or why you believe it is not forcing anything on anybody. As Christians, and as Catholics, we are obligated to share our beliefs with those who have not had the opportunity to examine them. If we pray, and if we are not triumphalist, if we are not seeking merely to score points or put people down for their ignorance of Jesus, we are doing as we should.

As far as comments on same-sex marriage and abortion are concerned, I take it this way. We are all members of society and in a democracy, we are therefore entitled to participate. If we do not agree with legislation, then we may, like other people, attempt to educate people and press for reform of the law. After all, if a pressure group is attempting to call for legal changes to permit child sacrifice,wouldn’t we challenge it? If, God forbid, the law was enacted so as to allow child sacrifice, wouldn’t all decent people, Catholic or not, press for a repeal of the legislation?

Yes, if something is legal, we treat it as the law of the land; but our Christianity is an integral part of us, and we should not be ashamed in allowing that part of us to motivate our political and social beliefs. If we do not do so, because others say we are forcing our beliefs on them, then their belief is being used to compel us to compromise our beliefs. Let us all act in charity, act sensitively, and from the depths of our Christian faith; but do not cave in to those who say that because we are Catholics, our views are “forcing our beliefs on others”. Whatever happened to robust debate??
 
yellowbicycle said:
I hear this alot.
And I don’t get it.
If a person really and truly thinks that my actions will ETERNALLY separate me from all that is good and beautiful, and that person really and truly loves me, then they SHOULD be trying to convert me, right?
I certainly wouldn’t want any of my loved ones to end up in eternal damnation.
Furthermore, how is a JW knocking at my door, or my Aunt Sally telling me that if I don’t go to Mass she won’t bake me a pumpkin pie ‘forcing’?
So, why do people get all uppity when someone ‘forces’ their beliefs on them?
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Exactly one of the points Penn (of Penn & Teller fame) makes when recounting his encounter with a Christian apologist (he is an atheist).

You can find a video of that embedded in what I think is the singularly most persuasive argument for rejecting atheism. It is based upon the work of the great Catholic Theologian Hans Urs von Balthazar and advanced by Fr. John Cihuk with some help by Michael Novak.

You can find it all here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/01/engaging-atheism/

Regards

DJ
 
I had a preacher come and preach on the quad where i go to school. He was ‘saving the world from homosexuals’ and such. He was a complete JOKE!!! He was doing more harm to the faith than good. The big thing about forcing beliefs on people, and why this guy was almost kicked off the campus by the students, is that they don’t listen. If this guy would have listened, to us, if he would have heard what we had to say maybe he would not have been laughted at so much. he even pulled the finger in the ears lalalala thing. I thought he was probably a very insecure individual who felt the need to stand up for what he believes. The whole thing was a distaster. If he represented Christianity, which he said he did, and ’ Christians’ are scared of opinions and stick their fingers in theirs ears at the thought of an ‘unChristian’ idea, well, thats certainly not a faith i want to be part of.
 
yellowbicycle said:
I hear this alot.
And I don’t get it.
If a person really and truly thinks that my actions will ETERNALLY separate me from all that is good and beautiful, and that person really and truly loves me, then they SHOULD be trying to convert me, right?
I certainly wouldn’t want any of my loved ones to end up in eternal damnation.
Furthermore, how is a JW knocking at my door, or my Aunt Sally telling me that if I don’t go to Mass she won’t bake me a pumpkin pie ‘forcing’?
So, why do people get all uppity when someone ‘forces’ their beliefs on them?
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Forcing your belief on another would require the removal of their ability to exercise their free will. (Keeping in mind that the state has the ability to do this through laws and parents have the ability to do this over their minor children, and in a limited sense empolyers have the ability to do this over their employees.)

Aunt Sally is not removing your free will. You still have the choice (provided your not a minor) to go or not to go to Mass, the choice you make would be influenced but not forced by your desire for pumpkin pie.
 
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