People who don't believe in God are broken

[meltzerboy]

No, Angel, my non atheism aside, there is no rational proof of the Deity. None. There is only a rationalization that can be used as encouragement to look, if one is so minded, which one such might do even without a “proof.” And one who has what might be called a Divine encounter might make sense of it in order to able to talk about it, but that would lack meaning, other than imagined, to anyone not having had that experience, as in the water analogy. As I indicated, “proofs” work for the already convinced. If the were proofs, even I would believe them, and I don’t. Belief is the least likely hypothesis. It is, after all, belief. right? So it is on believers to prove that faith and belief ought to have the same weight as knowledge.

The Angelic Doctor, for whom I have huge respect, near the end discovered what is the only proof there can be: he saw. His thinking and believing might have gotten him to that point, the ability to receive Grace, but neither of those was the Experience itself.

From a philosophical perspective, how much weight does knowledge really have, since it is constantly changing, based as it is on limited, subjective and interpretive perception? And therefore, the rational, systematic process whereby we attain such changeable knowledge: how much weight should we attach to that?

 

[ReapReason]

And yet, broken atheists do convert.

patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2012/06/best-facebook-entry-of-the-month.html

So God whispers to the broken, and if she cocks her head towards that whisper–even ever so slightly–she will hear his voice, realize she is broken, be more receptive to the Good News…and the rest is history!

I ain’t never heard any voice whispering that I could rationally identify to be God. And if i did hear a voice whispering, i would think i was insane.

 

[ThinkTwice]

Except that the Angelic Doctor put that false idea to rest centuries ago. God’s existence is indeed rationally provable.

So why discuss with irrational mindsets. Do you realize and others understand that you’re dealing with activists in their atheism? if you made a great point why something is green they will no matter what great points you make they will say that it’s really red.
Any rational person understands there is evidence and argument of a intelligent designer(God) and may also take notice of moral laws.
If they do not see that they’re just acting silly unjust and immoral. Why are religious people entertaining such a mindset(sinner)???

 

[PRmerger]

I ain’t never heard any voice whispering that I could rationally identify to be God. And if i did hear a voice whispering, i would think i was insane.

I think you indeed did hear that voice. That’s what brought you to the CAFs to dialogue with Catholics. :yup:

 

[ThinkTwice]

I think you indeed did hear that voice. That’s what brought you to the CAFs to dialogue with Catholics. :yup:

How about the voice of the devil. Maybe to undermine believers.

listen to Jesus words
Matthew 7:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

 

[PRmerger]

So why discuss with irrational mindsets. Do you realize and others understand that you’re dealing with activists in their atheism?

I don’t have any problem dialoguing with activists.

In addition, this type of dialogue does help lurkers to see how ridiculous someone’s viewpoint is, even if the fundamentalist is immutable and as firmly entrenched in his viewpoint as ever.

No matter. The apologia will benefit the lurkers, and anyone who has intellectual and spiritual integrity.

Why are religious people entertaining such a mindset(sinner)???

Because of this invitation: “Come now, and let us reason together”–Isaiah 1:18

 

[PRmerger]

How about the voice of the devil. Maybe to undermine believers.

listen to Jesus words
Matthew 7:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Yep. That’s why we need the Church. :yup:

 

[ThinkTwice]

I don’t have any problem dialoguing with activists.

In addition, this type of dialogue does help lurkers to see how ridiculous someone’s viewpoint is, even if the fundamentalist is immutable and as firmly entrenched in his viewpoint as ever.

No matter. The apologia will benefit the lurkers, and anyone who has intellectual and spiritual integrity.

Because of this invitation: “Come now, and let us reason together”–Isaiah 1:18

I stand corrected
You know what your dealing with.

 

[ReapReason]

I think you indeed did hear that voice. That’s what brought you to the CAFs to dialogue with Catholics. :yup:

But that can be asserted for any number of beliefs, some strange ill-defined guiding principle that I have no direct knowledge of. And what does it even mean to hear Gods voice? You say i am here because God lead me hear; but it is only evident to me that I came here because i want to discuss religious philosophy and express my opinion. Cults say similar things to entice people in to thinking they are special. I do not trust that kind of talk. If I do hear a voice, it be accounted for by illness or other things that have nothing to do with Gods voice. The point is, whether I hear a voice or not has no bearing on whether I actually know that its Gods voice, since it can be equally the case that I am psychotic.

 

[PRmerger]

But that can be asserted for any number of beliefs, some strange ill-defined guiding principle that I have no direct knowledge of. And what does it even mean to hear Gods voice? You say i am here because God lead me hear; but it is only evident to me that I came here because i want to discuss religious philosophy and express my opinion. Cults say similar things to entice people in to thinking they are special. I do not trust that kind of talk. If I do hear a voice, it be accounted for by illness or other things that have nothing to do with Gods voice. The point is, whether I hear a voice or not has no bearing on whether I actually know that its Gods voice, since it can be equally the case that I am psychotic.

As I said earlier, that’s why we have a Church.

 

[ReapReason]

As I said earlier, that’s why we have a Church.

How does that answer my question or solve the problem?

 

[PRmerger]

As I said earlier, that’s why we have a Church.

From the CCC 1706:

By his reason, man recognizes the voice of God which urges him “to do what is good and avoid what is evil.” Everyone is obliged to follow this law, which makes itself heard in conscience and is fulfilled in the love of God and of neighbor. Living a moral life bears witness to the dignity of the person

And from CCC 1776:

“Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”

And this magnificent tidbit:

When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arrive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything.

 

[PRmerger]

How does that answer my question or solve the problem?

Well, I can’t answer the question regarding your mental health. If you are struggling with a mental illness, then it’s still good for you to be here and dialogue with Catholics about the Truths proclaimed by the Church. That can only serve you to gain mental health.

As far as the other questions you have, the way it is solved is by seeking succor in the Truth of Catholicism: fides quaerens intelllectum.

 

[ReapReason]

From the CCC 1706:

By his reason, man recognizes the voice of God which urges him “to do what is good and avoid what is evil.” Everyone is obliged to follow this law, which makes itself heard in conscience and is fulfilled in the love of God and of neighbor. Living a moral life bears witness to the dignity of the person

And from CCC 1776:

“Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”

And this magnificent tidbit:

When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arrive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything.

Yes I have a conscience, but what you have quoted is a statement of faith, a teaching of your faith. That alone does not prove to me anything about the objective nature of a moral conscience, whether it is from God, or whether the feeling of doing wrong truly reflects objective actions or has any true eternal consequences on my alleged soul. You are just asserting that it is the God of the Catholic church that makes us feel this way because that’s what your faith teaches you.

Quoting church doctrine does not solve the problem if I am ignorant of being sinner in the same context as is being expressed through your faith.

 

[ReapReason]

Well, I can’t answer the question regarding your mental health. If you are struggling with a mental illness, then it’s still good for you to be here and dialogue with Catholics about the Truths proclaimed by the Church. That can only serve you to gain mental health.

As far as the other questions you have, the way it is solved is by seeking succor in the Truth of Catholicism: fides quaerens intelllectum.

I never asked you to answer any questions about my mental health and you know that.
As for the second suggestion, its running into the same faulty logic as before. I have no rational reason to seek salvation from eternal damnation if I don’t know that I am spiritually broken.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes I have a conscience, but what you have quoted is a statement of faith, a teaching of your faith.

Okay.

That alone does not prove to me anything about the objective nature of a moral conscience, whether it is from God, or whether the feeling of doing wrong truly reflects objective actions or has any true eternal consequences on my alleged soul.

But you do believe in the objective moral law: it is always right to follow one’s conscience, yes?

You are just asserting that it is the God of the Catholic church that makes us feel this way because that’s what your faith teaches you.

Actually, no. I assert it because reason declares it to be so.

Quoting church doctrine does not solve the problem if I am ignorant of being sinner in the same context as is being expressed through your faith.

'zactly.

It doesn’t sound like good news to you because to those who don’t know they are dying, a free heart transplant doesn’t sound very inviting.

 

[PRmerger]

I have no rational reason to seek salvation from eternal damnation if I don’t know that I am spiritually broken.

Egg-zactly what I’ve been saying all along.

 

[ReapReason]

Egg-zactly what I’ve been saying all along.

Therefore Atheists have no rational reason to seek salvation from sin.

 

[PRmerger]

Therefore Atheists have no rational reason to seek salvation from sin.

Atheists who don’t know they’re broken, no.

Atheists who are seekers, yes! :extrahappy:

 

[ReapReason]

Atheists who don’t know they’re broken, no.

Atheists who are seekers, yes! :extrahappy:

But they have no rational reason to be seekers in the first place. Therefore rationally speaking all atheists are incapable of rationally knowing that they are spiritually broken.