Per se VS. accidental?

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Why would you have to “posit a God as the first mover and first cause of this series”? The series is a series of infinite intermediate movements anyone? One the Third Way can save the day, but that makes the first way irrelevant and not an argument at all for God.

And as per se is explained by Aquinas, it is no different than accidental. One thing dependent on the former, than the former, ect to eternity. It is only if this is a simultaneous eternal motion is there maybe a problem but it has nothing to do with Aquinas’s argument.
The eternity or non-eternity of the world is irrelevant to the five proofs for the existence of God in Aquinas’ ST. This is why Aquinas doesn’t mention anything about the eternity or non-eternity of the world in them. I think Linus already mentioned this. Aquinas is not concerned about locating a first mover or first efficient cause somewhere back in time, say a million years ago. Rather, his concern is about the present moment.
 
If motions are eternal, than the First Way doesn’t prove anything.
 
I don’t feel like you guys are working me with.

Can we maybe agree that the First and Third Ways are speaking about the same thing (contingency ) from different angles? The Fifth Way and the Second are exactly the same, only that the Second Way adds that there can’t be an infinity of these efficient causes (infinite Gods, one greater than the other). This is needed to defend all of the Ways, and Aquinas even says in the Third Way that “Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes.”

Now infinite past motions are not per se as described in the above sentence. Therefore it says the series is accidental. But why not accidental all by itself without a God? With the Third Way, the First Way is nothing, and no argument can come from nothing
 
If motions are eternal, than the First Way doesn’t prove anything.
Whether motion is eternal or not is a whole different question than the first proof of Aquinas who followed Aristotle in demonstrating the requirement of a first unmoved mover to account for present motion or change in the world. Aristotle thought that motion was eternal but he said that this could not be philosophically demonstrated or proven. It was his opinion that motion was eternal. Aquinas agrees with Aristotle on this point that the eternity or non-eternity of the world cannot be philosophically demonstrated. That the world is not eternal we take as simply a matter of faith since God has told us so. Aristotle’s demonstration concerning the first unmoved mover is not about demonstrating eternal motion but the necessity to account for motion or change at all in the present. Again, Aquinas’ first proof concerns an ordered series of movers per se all of whom must exist in the here and now to account for the present motion or change. If the hand stops moving, the stick is not going to move. An ordered series of movers or causes per accidens concerns causes which stretch back in time and which the current effect is not dependent on the current existence of prior causes. The first proof is not an argument founded upon an ordered series of movers or causes per accidens. Though we have indication in some of Aquinas’ writings that he said a per accidens series could potentially stretch back to infinity, I’m not sure how much he thought that this could be philosophically demonstrated, if at all, since he explicitly says that eternal motion cannot be philosophically demonstrated. Consequently, the first proof is not about whether motion is eternal or not, it is about the necessity of arriving at a first unmoved mover to account for motion or change in the here and now, the present.
 
You can’t say the argument of the first way in a sentence without saying contingency. They are both the same argument, looking at creation first as the chain of motion, than as the world is today.

An infinite line ending at you can’t move up and down, poking you under the chin and than on the knee? That must be must be what you say per se is. But that is saying that it is simultaneous, so why can’t it happen so long as you say motions could have always existed, its infinity going to today?
 
O.K. then, just how does his principles " complicated ragbag? " Surely we have the right do defend not only philosophy but the inappropriate conclusions some modern " cosmoligists " and scientists assert are the logical conclusions of science.

I understand why atheists and skeptics would feel this way but I don’t see how it is a threat to faith that philosophers, at least since Plato, found that God could indeed be found through the philosophical exercise. Even St. Paul said the " …the evidence of Him can be found in the things He has made…" Of course faith is not reason but good reasons can lead to faith and it certainly reinforces it. What is wrong with that? Reason does not eliminate faith, it simply puts it on a firm foundation, or can. Besides we are told by theologians who should know that faith does require reasons. The only exception I think of to that would be a private Divine revelation as happened to St. Paul and that doesn’t happen very often.
AAAARRRRHHHH!!!

I give up. I’ve repeated the same thing five or six times in as many different ways as I can think of, and you’ve not read it once. Never in my life have I met anyone so doggedly determined to completely ignore everything I say and pretend I said entirely different things. It’s amazing. Perhaps you’re smoking wacky tobaccy or have special glasses, I don’t know what to make of it.
 
The quantum or subatomic universe and its workings as science tells us is truly quite amazing, very amazing. God is the creator of all this as well as its preserver. I’ve heard it said from science that the atomic or subatomic world are the building blocks of nature. The builder here is God. God is not blind to the quantum universe, for he is its builder.
Without the activity of the First Mover and First Efficient Cause who is God, no movement, change, or effect would take place in the universe and this includes the tiniest elementary particles in the farthest reaches of space. Indeed, without the constant activity of God, the universe would vanish back into nothingness from which it came. It is actually a wonderful meditation to consider that God is behind all the workings of not only the macro universe but also the micro and quantum universe. What we should gather from a meditating on all this, I think, is how great God truly is, He is infinite while the universe is finite as well as our tiny little minds. The Scripture says: Thus says the Lord, “The heavens are my throne, the earth, my footstool” (Isaiah 66: 1).
When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?” The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

There are trillions of trillions of particles in your body alone, and if God had to constantly micro-manage every one of their motions every picosecond then perhaps God could learn the art of delegation from the centurion. 😃

But no, God said let there be light, he commands, he is not a cosmic plate juggler.
I think I somewhat addressed this in post #28 and #30. The generator of the form in those things which move naturally in the last analysis is God whose universal causal activity in the here and now is the universal cause of whatever effects take place in the universe in the here and now.
I think you’re speaking of the unmoved mover here, rather than God. One is a philosophical invention based on the wrong notion that things return to a state of rest without constant plate-juggling. The other is God.
 
AAAARRRRHHHH!!!

I give up. I’ve repeated the same thing five or six times in as many different ways as I can think of, and you’ve not read it once. Never in my life have I met anyone so doggedly determined to completely ignore everything I say and pretend I said entirely different things. It’s amazing. Perhaps you’re smoking wacky tobaccy or have special glasses, I don’t know what to make of it.
All I am asking is for a specific example that you think illustrates how A/T philosophy complicates or obstructs the scientific enterprise.

Linus2nd
 
AAAARRRRHHHH!!!

I give up. I’ve repeated the same thing five or six times in as many different ways as I can think of, and you’ve not read it once. Never in my life have I met anyone so doggedly determined to completely ignore everything I say and pretend I said entirely different things. It’s amazing. Perhaps you’re smoking wacky tobaccy or have special glasses, I don’t know what to make of it.
I wish I knew how to flag

Richca, I think you missed my point because you didn’t consider directly the supposed infinite line a causes. You are using your imagination as if there is something behind it that must be. Along side it, and even from nothing because of contingency. But not behind it
 
All I am asking is for a specific example that you think illustrates how A/T philosophy complicates or obstructs the scientific enterprise.
But I never said it does. I said what’s complicated is your attempt to explain things using a mixture of modern science and Aristotle.

For example, look at this page from a course in astronomy at U. Tennessee, Knoxville. I imagine this would be fairly typical, although a physics course would include other examples, biology others, and so on.

See how it makes a clear distinction between Aristotle and modern science rather than trying to mix them, for the very good reason that, aside from his many obvious mistakes, he thought there were different sets of laws and different natures, while modern science says there is one universal set of laws for one universal nature.

There might also be some talk of Aristotle when it comes to broader, more metaphysical ideas such as synergy and emergence, but you can see that trying to mix the two systems together to explain things as you do, a bit of inertia here, a dab of potentiality there, is not what happens in scientific enterprise, for very good reasons.
 
I don’t see where any specific idea of physics was used from Aristotle except maybe the First Way. Potentiality is such a easy idea, every scientist believes in it. Why anybody tries to make a big deal about it is beyond me.

Anyway

Hence, if the whole corporeal universe were one animal, so that its movement came from an “intrinsic moving force,” as some in fact have held, in that case movement would really be the life of all natural bodies.
newadvent.org/summa/1018.htm#article1

Aristotle spoke of this two in his Physics. If we imagine the movements of the universe as having always been like that of an animal, one movement exciting the adjacent energy, and so on, like in a circle, forever, there is no need for a First Mover in the sense of physics, except that there is design (5th way), contingency (3rd way), and limitation (4th way).
 
I don’t see where any specific idea of physics was used from Aristotle except maybe the First Way. Potentiality is such a easy idea, every scientist believes in it. Why anybody tries to make a big deal about it is beyond me.
I think potential/actual was a big deal originally. As I understand it, Aristotle synthesized two conflicting schools of thought, one which held that only change exists, the other that change is impossible.

Agreed that this kind of metaphysical argument isn’t an issue in real-life or in science, which would take common sense as the null hypothesis until it is falsified. And it would surely have always been common sense since long before Aristotle, although Aristotle was the first to formalize it.
 
But I never said it does. I said what’s complicated is your attempt to explain things using a mixture of modern science and Aristotle.

For example, look at this page from a course in astronomy at U. Tennessee, Knoxville. I imagine this would be fairly typical, although a physics course would include other examples, biology others, and so on…[snip]…
O.K., I see what you are objecting to. But you are interpreting my treatment incorrectly. The piece you linked is substantially correct except on three points. First Aristotle’s Prime Mover did not act as an efficient cause, it did not apply force to the outer Celestial Sphere. The outer Celestial Sphere was moved by the Prime Mover as by a final cause. In other words, the outer Sphere was moved by the desire to imitate the perfection of the Prime Mover. The Prime Mover of Aristotle did nothing but " think " upon its own perfection.

Secondly, the " laws of the universe " are not simply " bold facts, " they have not always simply existed. Now you can argue that it isn’t the business of science to point out this obvious fact, but I would say that science could at least point out to the student that nothing in the universe happens without a cause and that there are other disciplines ( A/T philosophy, in their modern interpretation ) which may point to these causes.

My objections have not been with science itself but with the unwarranted interpretations of science by some of their modern popularisers. In their interpretation, final cause, material cause and formal cause are rejected, and efficient cause has a limited, time sensitive application only. It also rejects the principles of Aristotelian hylomorphism, substance, accident, nature and essence, and act and potency… All of these, it is my contention, can be useful to science. They are no threat to science at all. But they do tend to show that there is more to the world than science allows its students to imagine.

Finally, Newtons Laws of Inertia illustrate my point. An arrow does not continue to move simply because of a scientific law of inertia, nor do heavenly bodies. They move because of an impetus applied to them by some efficient cause ( Aquinas illustrated this point by using the example of a thrown ball ), which acts as an accidental form or as an accidental modification to the arrow’s substantial form, its nature, in such a way that the arrow ( or heavenly body ) continues to move naturally under the influence of its nature. And the efficient cause of this nature is the generator of its form, whether man as an instrumental cause in the case of artifacts such as space ships and arrows or ultimately God as the generator of the forms of heavenly bodies.

Linus2nd
 
I wish I knew how to flag

Richca, I think you missed my point because you didn’t consider directly the supposed infinite line a causes. You are using your imagination as if there is something behind it that must be. Along side it, and even from nothing because of contingency. But not behind it
I seriously doubt that Aquinas was simply using his imagination in proposing the five proofs for the existence of God. In his view, these proofs are based on metaphysical and demonstrative principles, the denial of which is incoherent.

You seem to want to suggest that an order of per se movers or efficient causes can infinitely regress. Aquinas is very clear that this is not possible. The first proof concerning motion or change and the impossibility of an infinite regress in things moved is a demonstration that stands on its own whether you consider the other proofs or not. However, all the proofs should be considered together if one wants to get a more thorough idea of Aquinas’ view of God’s causal activity in the world.

Concerning the first proof and the principle that whatever is moved is moved by another, for motion is nothing else but the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality, then as Edward Feser points out in his book Aquinas, “as should be evident, such a series can only possibly terminate in something which is not reduced to act or actualized by anything else, but which just is in act or actual, and thus unmoving.” This is the logical conclusion otherwise there would be no motion or change in the world which is contrary to our sense experience. Accordingly, Aquinas writes “the first and more manifest way is the argument from motion.”

I would also recommend reading Aquinas’ Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 1, chapter 15. Here, Aquinas goes into more details concerning the unmoved mover and the impossibility of an infinite regress. One of the arguments in this work, if I’m understanding it correctly, is that if one regresses to infinity in things moved by another all simultaneously existing, you would have one and the same thing moved in both infinite time and finite time which is impossible. For example, suppose I move a stick with my hand right now, it was not previously moving, now it is. This is a new event or motion. If the stick is moved by the hand, the hand by the arm, and so on to infinity; if you consider this infinite number of movers and things moved as one body, so to speak, this one body moves in infinite time whereas the stick moves in finite time, I just started moving it. It appears to me that if you regress to infinity in movers of the stick, I would have had to be always moving the stick for all eternity which is plainly false. We could also ask the question whether or not it is indeed possible to pass through the infinite or infinite time for an effect that is dependent on an infinite number of things all simultaneously existing. I believe I have read that Aquinas, following Aristotle, says that to pass through such an infinite is not possible.
 
O.K., I see what you are objecting to. But you are interpreting my treatment incorrectly. The piece you linked is substantially correct except on three points. First Aristotle’s Prime Mover did not act as an efficient cause, it did not apply force to the outer Celestial Sphere. The outer Celestial Sphere was moved by the Prime Mover as by a final cause. In other words, the outer Sphere was moved by the desire to imitate the perfection of the Prime Mover. The Prime Mover of Aristotle did nothing but " think " upon its own perfection.

Secondly, the " laws of the universe " are not simply " bold facts, " they have not always simply existed. Now you can argue that it isn’t the business of science to point out this obvious fact, but I would say that science could at least point out to the student that nothing in the universe happens without a cause and that there are other disciplines ( A/T philosophy, in their modern interpretation ) which may point to these causes.

My objections have not been with science itself but with the unwarranted interpretations of science by some of their modern popularisers. In their interpretation, final cause, material cause and formal cause are rejected, and efficient cause has a limited, time sensitive application only. It also rejects the principles of Aristotelian hylomorphism, substance, accident, nature and essence, and act and potency… All of these, it is my contention, can be useful to science. They are no threat to science at all. But they do tend to show that there is more to the world than science allows its students to imagine.

Finally, Newtons Laws of Inertia illustrate my point. An arrow does not continue to move simply because of a scientific law of inertia, nor do heavenly bodies. They move because of an impetus applied to them by some efficient cause ( Aquinas illustrated this point by using the example of a thrown ball ), which acts as an accidental form or as an accidental modification to the arrow’s substantial form, its nature, in such a way that the arrow ( or heavenly body ) continues to move naturally under the influence of its nature. And the efficient cause of this nature is the generator of its form, whether man as an instrumental cause in the case of artifacts such as space ships and arrows or ultimately God as the generator of the forms of heavenly bodies.

Linus2nd
A number of things:

I think you’re trying to make a distinction without a difference. Can you give a quote from Aristotle where he says God moved things from the future? God isn’t in time anyway, so what does it even mean to say he moves as an efficient cause vs final cause with regard to each passing moment?

What scientist in the world doesn’t believe in act and potency? Atoms have the potency to be used as bombs. Who denies this?

Finally, I don’t see how the issue of substance has anything to do with science.
 
I seriously doubt that Aquinas was simply using his imagination in proposing the five proofs for the existence of God. In his view, these proofs are based on metaphysical and demonstrative principles, the denial of which is incoherent.

You seem to want to suggest that an order of per se movers or efficient causes can infinitely regress. Aquinas is very clear that this is not possible. The first proof concerning motion or change and the impossibility of an infinite regress in things moved is a demonstration that stands on its own whether you consider the other proofs or not. However, all the proofs should be considered together if one wants to get a more thorough idea of Aquinas’ view of God’s causal activity in the world.

Concerning the first proof and the principle that whatever is moved is moved by another, for motion is nothing else but the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality, then as Edward Feser points out in his book Aquinas, “as should be evident, such a series can only possibly terminate in something which is not reduced to act or actualized by anything else, but which just is in act or actual, and thus unmoving.” This is the logical conclusion otherwise there would be no motion or change in the world which is contrary to our sense experience. Accordingly, Aquinas writes “the first and more manifest way is the argument from motion.”

I would also recommend reading Aquinas’ Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 1, chapter 15. Here, Aquinas goes into more details concerning the unmoved mover and the impossibility of an infinite regress. One of the arguments in this work, if I’m understanding it correctly, is that if one regresses to infinity in things moved by another all simultaneously existing, you would have one and the same thing moved in both infinite time and finite time which is impossible. For example, suppose I move a stick with my hand right now, it was not previously moving, now it is. This is a new event or motion. If the stick is moved by the hand, the hand by the arm, and so on to infinity; if you consider this infinite number of movers and things moved as one body, so to speak, this one body moves in infinite time whereas the stick moves in finite time, I just started moving it. It appears to me that if you regress to infinity in movers of the stick, I would have had to be always moving the stick for all eternity which is plainly false. We could also ask the question whether or not it is indeed possible to pass through the infinite or infinite time for an effect that is dependent on an infinite number of things all simultaneously existing. I believe I have read that Aquinas, following Aristotle, says that to pass through such an infinite is not possible.
It wouldn’t be “both infinite time and finite time” if it was an instantaneous motion. But this hypothetical has nothing whatsoever to do with the first way. Why isn’t an eternal universe the “passing through an infinity”.

Physical things are different than time. If you took only halfsteps and walked towards a door, you would never get there even though you are getting closer to it every 2 seconds. That is a huge paradox. If I divided an apple in half, place one half aside, divided the other half, and did this forever, I would be able to place the largest to the smallest pieces all in a line, because it is still the finite size of the apple. But put your finger to the smallest side: what’s there? If it is anything that it could have been divided further. This is a huge paradox. But time is very different become we live IN time and can understand its nature.

Imagine a river flowing infinity in one direction towards you. That is the infinite series of past motions. There is no way to connect a personal or impersonal force to it. The First Way is back physics, but the Third Way saves it with good philosophy

Finally, how is looking at efficient cause and understanding a universal cause not the same as looking at design and seeing a designer. The 2nd way is the 5th way except that it accept that it argues a per se infinite series of designers is impossible. Again, in the third way he mentions the second way also
 
I seriously doubt that Aquinas was simply using his imagination in proposing the five proofs for the existence of God. In his view, these proofs are based on metaphysical and demonstrative principles, the denial of which is incoherent.

You seem to want to suggest that an order of per se movers or efficient causes can infinitely regress. Aquinas is very clear that this is not possible. The first proof concerning motion or change and the impossibility of an infinite regress in things moved is a demonstration that stands on its own whether you consider the other proofs or not. However, all the proofs should be considered together if one wants to get a more thorough idea of Aquinas’ view of God’s causal activity in the world.

Concerning the first proof and the principle that whatever is moved is moved by another, for motion is nothing else but the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality, then as Edward Feser points out in his book Aquinas, “as should be evident, such a series can only possibly terminate in something which is not reduced to act or actualized by anything else, but which just is in act or actual, and thus unmoving.” This is the logical conclusion otherwise there would be no motion or change in the world which is contrary to our sense experience. Accordingly, Aquinas writes “the first and more manifest way is the argument from motion.”

I would also recommend reading Aquinas’ Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 1, chapter 15. Here, Aquinas goes into more details concerning the unmoved mover and the impossibility of an infinite regress. One of the arguments in this work, if I’m understanding it correctly, is that if one regresses to infinity in things moved by another all simultaneously existing, you would have one and the same thing moved in both infinite time and finite time which is impossible. For example, suppose I move a stick with my hand right now, it was not previously moving, now it is. This is a new event or motion. If the stick is moved by the hand, the hand by the arm, and so on to infinity; if you consider this infinite number of movers and things moved as one body, so to speak, this one body moves in infinite time whereas the stick moves in finite time, I just started moving it. It appears to me that if you regress to infinity in movers of the stick, I would have had to be always moving the stick for all eternity which is plainly false. We could also ask the question whether or not it is indeed possible to pass through the infinite or infinite time for an effect that is dependent on an infinite number of things all simultaneously existing. I believe I have read that Aquinas, following Aristotle, says that to pass through such an infinite is not possible.
(continued from post #94)

Actually, it is in St Thomas’ Summa Theologica, I, q.7, art.4, where St Thomas mentions the impossibility of passing through an infinite number of things that a particular thing is dependent on for its existence. This concerns an order of efficient causes per se all of which are simultaneously existing. The question is about whether an infinite multitude can exist. He writes:
“I answer that, A twofold opinion exists on this subject. Some, as Avicenna and Algazel, said that it was impossible for an actually infinite multitude to exist absolutely; but that an accidentally infinite multitude was not impossible. A multitude is said to be infinite absolutely, when an infinite multitude is necessary that something may exist. Now this is impossible; because it would entail something dependent on an infinity for its existence; and hence its generation could never come to be, because it is impossible to pass through an infinite medium.”

If we continue reading the article in question, St Thomas appears to gives us another reason for the impossibility of an infinite regress concerning an absolute infinite multitude in an order of efficient causes per se. He writes:
"A multitude is said to be accidentally infinite when its existence as such is not necessary, but accidental. This can be shown, for example, in the work of a carpenter requiring a certain absolute multitude; namely, art in the soul, the movement of the hand, and a hammer; and supposing that such things were infinitely multiplied, the carpentering work would never be finished, forasmuch as it would depend on an infinite number of causes. But the multitude of hammers, inasmuch as one may be broken and another used, is an accidental multitude; for it happens by accident that many hammers are used, and it matters little whether one or two, or many are used, or an infinite number, if the work is carried on for an infinite time. In this way they said that there can be an accidentally infinite multitude. "

In the new english translation of the ST by Fr. Thomas Gilby et al.,1963, a footnote concerning the above reads: Notice that St Thomas is perfectly prepared to allow infinite time for the work (an accidental infinite multitude), yet nevertheless complains earlier against an inherently infinite number of causes that “the job will never get finished.” ‘Never’ does not mean ‘at no time finitely distant,’ but ‘at no time even infinitely distant.’ The understanding of this point is vital to St Thomas’ numerous remarks about the impossibility of infinite regress.

An order of efficient causes per accidens concerns causes that are in the same order of things or the order of only one cause. For example, the hammers in question 7 or the generation of one man from another (cf. ST, I, q.46, art. 2). However, in an order of efficient causes per se, for example, if the generation of this man depended upon this man, and on an elementary body, and on the sun, and so on to infinity, this is impossible. The effect would never be realized.
 
A number of things:
I think you’re trying to make a distinction without a difference. Can you give a quote from Aristotle where he says God moved things from the future?

I never said that. I said God moves the First Sphere as an object of desire, as a Final Cause.
God isn’t in time anyway, so what does it even mean to say he moves as an efficient cause vs final cause with regard to each passing moment?
Yes, God moves both as the First Efficient Cause and as the Ultimate Final Cause. That is, our God does, not Aristotle’s.
What scientist in the world doesn’t believe in act and potency?
Only a tiny percentage of scientists would have any philosophical training. So I imagine most of them have never considered these categories.
Atoms have the potency to be used as bombs. Who denies this?
Certainly. I don’t think anyone would who understood what you were talking about? I would imagine that 99.9999% of the people who were asked the question would be very surprised, they might even ask, " Wha’dy mean? " ’ Potency ’ just isn’t in the every day vocabulary of most folks, even scientists.
Finally, I don’t see how the issue of substance has anything to do with science.
So you think they should know what you mean by ’ potency ’ but are ignorant of ’ substance? ’ I think science has everything to do with substance. Except for theoretical physicists they handle all kinds of substances every day. They may not reflect on it, but it is true nevertheless.

Linus2nd
 
It wouldn’t be “both infinite time and finite time” if it was an instantaneous motion. But this hypothetical has nothing whatsoever to do with the first way. Why isn’t an eternal universe the “passing through an infinity”.

It appears to me that it would be both infinite time and finite time which is a contradiction. The idea that a particular motion moves instantaneously with a prior infinite number of movers is not reasonable nor is it consistent with observation. Time is the measure of motion. It takes the earth 24 hours to revolve once on its axis; 24 hours is not instantaneous. According to modern science, the movement of light which is supposedly the fastest moving phenomena is not instantaneous. It travels at a speed of 186,000 miles per second. This idea of instantaneous motion is not even supported by modern science especially if we considered that some particular motion depended on an infinite number of prior movers.
Imagine a river flowing infinity in one direction towards you. That is the infinite series of past motions. There is no way to connect a personal or impersonal force to it. The First Way is back physics, but the Third Way saves it with good philosophy.
 
A number of things:

Finally, I don’t see how the issue of substance has anything to do with science.
It depends on what science we are talking about. If we discuss Aristotlelian/Thomistic philosophy and metaphysics, then substance has a lot to do with this science. If we are talking about modern physics, chemistry, etc., even though modern chemistry uses the concept of substance a lot, if I’m not mistaken, this concept of substance is not understood in the same sense as A/T. Chemistry understands substance in terms of molecules, atoms, protons, electrons, neutrons, etc.; something that can be directly observed, for example, under a microscope. Substance in A/T, is metaphysical, something we perceive and understand through the intellect and only indirectly observed by the senses.

What we can understand or gather through the use of our intellect though not directly observed by the senses, does not make this intellectual perception less real than what we see with our eyes. Do we see truth, or justice, or temperance, or prudence, or wisdom, or goodness, or evil with our senses? Not directly no, but that doesn’t mean they do not exist. We understand these ideas through our immaterial intellects.
 
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