Perfect Contrition

[Warrior1979]

Again you are wrong. Baptism of Blood is the most perfect contrition that can be made. Dying for their faith the martyrs sins were forgiven so they did NOT die in a state of mortal sin.

Unless the definition of martyr has changed, a martyr is someone that dies. Baptism of the Blood does not occur before one dies, because they aren’t a martyr at that point. You could argue that they are free of sin prior to being in the presence of God, but you can’t argue that they are free of sin at the point of death.

 

[Warrior1979]

Do you reject the Church teaching??

Do you really need to finish off every post with this type of statement?

We can all do it…do you obstenently reject what the Church defines as a martyr?

 

[thistle]

Do you really need to finish off every post with this type of statement?

We can all do it…do you obstenently reject what the Church defines as a martyr?

Catholic Dictionary:

MARTYR. A person who chooses to suffer, even to die, rather than renounce his or her faith or Christian principles. After the example of Christ one does not resist one’s persecutors when they use violence out of hatred or malice against Christ, or his Church, or some revealed truth of the Catholic religion. (Etym. Greek martyros, witness, martyr.)

I agree with the above definition.

However, you are digressing to avoid the point which is not the definition of a martyr.
The intent of the person who is prepared to die for their faith constitutes an act of perfect contrition. Therefore their sins are forgiven before they die and when they die they are not in a state of mortal sin.
Its the same as someone making an act of perfect contrition but dying before they get to Confession. Their sins are already forgiven so when they die they are not in a state of mortal sin.

 

[Warrior1979]

This is what the Catechism states:

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

Note that there is no reference to anything you are talking about.

• There is no reference to one’s state of sin, mortal or otherwise
• There is no mention of perfect contrition
• There is no mention of intent

Interestingly enough, this coincides with Bible references. Christ did not make such distinctions.

Also note that they are baptized by their death. It does not state they are baptized before their death.

Subject’s like this demonstrate the fallacy of taking a general statement and applying it to specific circumstances.

 

[TrueLight]

This is why people say Catholics are legalistic. We are making this more difficult than it is.

All this can be summarized by asking, “Are you really sorry? Are you really, really sorry?”

This is what I ask my kids. Is this lip service, or are you saying sorry to avoid a harsh punishment. Do you understand why you were wrong? Have you resolved to not do this again?

By taking the extra step and going to a priest, you are hit with the gravity of the situation. The fact that you take that extra step makes it more likely that you mean it.

But how many of you know people who confess out of fear and then jump right back into the sin?

Should anyone be obsessing over whether their act of contrition was perfect or not?

Seriously, are we better than the Pharisees?

What would Jesus say if he were a member of this forum?

Act of Perfect Contrition: Are you really, really sorry? Do you understand how your sin has offended God, and have you resolved to not do this again?

Simple.

 

[LeahInancsi]

I cannot say any particular individual has gone to Hell or not. Only God knows that.

You’re right, you don’t know.

What I can objectively say is that the Church teaches with the authority given to it by Christ that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell. Therefore, objectively speaking, anyone who has turned their back on the Church has committed a grave sin and dying unrepentent goes to Hell.

I don’t believe reality is that black and white.

Do you reject the Church teaching??

This statement at the end of all of your replies is very offensive. This is a discussion, not a condemnation.

 

[Will_S]

I don’t believe reality is that black and white.

When the Church defines a dogma, it does so to eliminate all doubt. That is, to make things black and white.

It is a dogma that anyone who dies in mortal sin descends immediately into hell.

For a Catholic to abandon the Church is, objectively speaking, a mortal sin. But there is a gray area when it comes to determining whether a particular lapsed Catholic sinned mortally by abandoning the Church because, although that person has certainly committed what is objectively a mortal sin, no outsider can know the interior state of that person. In particular, in order for that person to have committed a mortal sin they must 1) Know that it is a sin to abandon the Church and 2) Despite that knowledge, and with full consent of the will, choose to do it anyway.

If those conditions have been met, then that person is in the state of mortal sin and certainly (without question) will go to hell upon death unless they repent.

But that brings up a final point. We have no way of knowing if the person in question repented before death. Realistically, when someone persists in mortal sin up until the time of death, they probably didn’t repent before death, but we can never know that for sure, so we can always hope and pray for any soul.

 

[Warrior1979]

This is why people say Catholics are legalistic. We are making this more difficult than it is.

In many cases I tend to agree. The specific circumstance I mentioned makes light of this. Christ discusses the martyr situation very simply. He doesn’t make an issue of one’s state of sin nor their religious background, whereas that Church specifically does. The Church introduces the concept of Baptism of Blood, which basically states the the unbaptized that dies for Christ will go to Heaven. This implies that Catholic martyrs in a state of mortal sin won’t go to Heaven because they can’t receive this type of baptism. The problem with this is that it clearly is contradictory to Christ’s promise, which simply cannot be, because the Church has no authority to change such a promise.

Keeping things simple works best. Christ promises, we receive…very easy to understand.

 

[TrueLight]

This implies that Catholic martyrs in a state of mortal sin won’t go to Heaven because they can’t receive this type of baptism.

I never looked it at that way. Is that the teaching? If a Catholic dies as a martyr for Christ, but is in a state of mortal sin, they don’t automatically go to heaven?

Doesn’t the fact that they made this ultimate sacrifice, blot out their sins, so to speak?

 

[LeahInancsi]

My last word in this thread.

My mother died in August and I don’t one living relative. I feel totally alone. I’m in a very fragile state of mind and take one day at a time with prayer and the hope that I will see my mother (and grandparents) again one day. At this time, that is all the hope I have. Without that hope, I would probably end up in hell with those Catholics who died without Perfect Contrition.

For those of you who doubt my belief in Church teaching, try to imagine how you would feel if all your loved ones were dead. That’s exactly how I feel right now.

 

[Warrior1979]

I never looked it at that way. Is that the teaching? If a Catholic dies as a martyr for Christ, but is in a state of mortal sin, they don’t automatically go to heaven?

Doesn’t the fact that they made this ultimate sacrifice, blot out their sins, so to speak?

According to Christ yes. But it is difficult to reconcile what Christ said with what the Catechism says. The Catechism talks about Baptism of Blood being the mechanism by which non-Catholics will go to Heaven if they are martyred. Since Catholics by definition are already baptized and cannot be baptized again, the obvious followup question is by what mechanism do Catholics go to Heaven if they are martyred. I have no idea, but it just seems to me the way the issue has been addressed made a mountain out of a molehill, and seems to create theological problems.

 

[TrueLight]

According to Christ yes. But it is difficult to reconcile what Christ said with what the Catechism says. The Catechism talks about Baptism of Blood being the mechanism by which non-Catholics will go to Heaven if they are martyred. Since Catholics by definition are already baptized and cannot be baptized again, the obvious followup question is by what mechanism do Catholics go to Heaven if they are martyred. I have no idea, but it just seems to me the way the issue has been addressed made a mountain out of a molehill, and seems to create theological problems.

Where does Jesus say that?

 

[thistle]

According to Christ yes. But it is difficult to reconcile what Christ said with what the Catechism says. The Catechism talks about Baptism of Blood being the mechanism by which non-Catholics will go to Heaven if they are martyred. Since Catholics by definition are already baptized and cannot be baptized again, the obvious followup question is by what mechanism do Catholics go to Heaven if they are martyred. I have no idea, but it just seems to me the way the issue has been addressed made a mountain out of a molehill, and seems to create theological problems.

Baptism of Blood does not apply to those already baptised Catholics. It applies to those who are NOT already baptised Catholics. You fail to understand the difference between Martyr and Baptism of Blood.
An already baptised Catholic who dies for the faith is a Martyr (not baptised in blood) and is saved.
A non-Catholic who dies for the Catholic faith without having been baptised is baptised in blood (hence becomes Catholic and is saved).

CCC 1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that **those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism **are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

 

[Warrior1979]

Baptism of Blood does not apply to those already baptised Catholics. It applies to those who are NOT already baptised Catholics. You fail to understand the difference between Martyr and Baptism of Blood.

Actually, I understand the difference. I also understand that Christ did not make such a distinction.

I would appreciate it you can provide a source in the Catechism that asserts the Catholic martyrs go to Heaven (I haven’t been able to find it).

CCC 1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that **those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism **are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

Can you cite a Scriptural source that distinguishes between Catholic and non-Catholic martyrs?

By the way, I noticed you changed the subject. You still haven’t cited a source that distinguishes the state of sin a martyr is in at the time of death. Don’t bother with the Scriptures when looking for it, because it’s not there.

 

[Warrior1979]

For clarification, I should mention that I brought up the example of the unbaptized martyr, because it is specifically addressed in the Catechism. It specifically states that they are “baptized by their death,” which indicates that there state of sin before death is not relevant. It therefore proves my point about that one can die in a state of mortal sin and still gain entrance to Heaven.

I didn’t get into the example of Catholic martyrs because it doesn’t seem to be addressed in the Catechism (I could be wrong, but I can’t find it). In that case, the argument can devolve into personal opinions and interpretations…though I will believe Christ’s unequivocal words in this matter.

 

[thistle]

Actually, I understand the difference. I also understand that Christ did not make such a distinction.
**
I would appreciate it you can provide a source in the Catechism that asserts the Catholic martyrs go to Heaven (I haven’t been able to find it). **

Can you cite a Scriptural source that distinguishes between Catholic and non-Catholic martyrs?

By the way, I noticed you changed the subject. You still haven’t cited a source that distinguishes the state of sin a martyr is in at the time of death. Don’t bother with the Scriptures when looking for it, because it’s not there.

Its very simple.

A Catholic martyr is a martyr who is already sacramentally baptised into the Catholic Curch and dies for their faith. No Baptism of Blood involved.

A non-Catholic martyr is one who is not already sacramentally baptised a Catholic but who dies for the Catholic faith and becomes Catholic through this act which constitutes a Baptism of Blood.

In both the above cases they are saved.

I notice you keep asking where this and that is in the Bible. So that I don’t misunderstand you are you saying that you only accept a Church teaching if you can find a direct reference in the Bible?

As for your other point ( the one I highlighted in your comments) it is completely ridiculous. Are you seriously suggesting to everyone here that a Catholic martyr is not saved?? Please explain your comment.

 

[Warrior1979]

As for your other point ( the one I highlighted in your comments) it is completely ridiculous. Are you seriously suggesting to everyone here that a Catholic martyr is not saved?? Please explain your comment.

You missed my point.

• Christ stated martyrs are saved
• The Church (not Christ) asserts that non-Catholics are saved by Baptism of the Blood
• Christ made no distinction as to one’s state of sin at the time of death

By what mechanism are martyrs that die in a state of mortal sin saved?

A mechanism must exist, otherwise it would imply that non-Catholics martyrs in a state of mortal sin, by their death, are saved and Catholic martyrs are not. That in and of itself is purely ridiculous and contrary to what Christ said. Christ is clear on the issue, yet the Catechism seems silent.

 

[thistle]

You missed my point.

• Christ stated martyrs are saved
• The Church (not Christ) asserts that non-Catholics are saved by Baptism of the Blood
• Christ made no distinction as to one’s state of sin at the time of death

By what mechanism are martyrs that die in a state of mortal sin saved?

A mechanism must exist, otherwise it would imply that non-Catholics martyrs in a state of mortal sin, by their death, are saved and Catholic martyrs are not. That in and of itself is purely ridiculous and contrary to what Christ said. Christ is clear on the issue, yet the Catechism seems silent.

In case you didn’t know, the Church speaks and teaches with the authority of Christ. In matters of Faith and Morals the Church cannot be in error. When the Church teaches that non-Catholics who die for the Catholic faith are saved through Baptism of Blood that means it is completely supported by the Authority of Christ.

I see your profile is blank on religion. I don’t believe you are a Catholic.

Also “by what mechanism are martyrs that die in a state of mortal sin saved”. First of all there is no “mechanism”. It is the greatest act of faith and not a mechanism. Their sins are forgiven and they do not die in a state of mortal sin.

 

[Warrior1979]

In case you didn’t know, the Church speaks and teaches with the authority of Christ. In matters of Faith and Morals the Church cannot be in error. When the Church teaches that non-Catholics who die for the Catholic faith are saved through Baptism of Blood that means it is completely supported by the Authority of Christ.

I have no problem with it, and my position is the same as the Church’s in this particular matter. You insist that mortal sins are forgiven before death, which is contrary to what the Church teaches.

I see your profile is blank on religion. I don’t believe you are a Catholic.

What is the relevance of this? It’s usually brought up once one can no longer support their view.

Their sins are forgiven and they do not die in a state of mortal sin.

Once again, false. The Catechism appears teaches that non-Catholics are baptized by their death, indicating that death must occur before their sins are forgiven, not after. Do you disagree with the Church on the matter? And why?

Are you really Catholic?

 

[Warrior1979]

In case you didn’t know, the Church speaks and teaches with the authority of Christ. In matters of Faith and Morals the Church cannot be in error. When the Church teaches that non-Catholics who die for the Catholic faith are saved through Baptism of Blood that means it is completely supported by the Authority of Christ.

The Church not being able to be in error means they cannot be contrary to Christ. The introduction in Tradition of Baptism of Blood is fine. However, as noted earlier, Christ made no distinction between Catholic or non-Catholic, or any belief system for that matter. Catholics who die for Christ must also be saved, regardless of their state of sin. The introduction of the Baptism of Blood immediately brings up the followup question of how Catholic martyrs are saved regardless of the state of sin. We know it isn’t the Baptism of Blood which was introduced into Tradition, so what is it…I really want to know.