Perfect + Imperfect = ??

[Emad]

Tantum ergo:

Yes, He would.

I would actually EXPECT not to fully understand God. How can I, a mere human being, be capable of the OMNISCIENCE of GOD? I can only understand on a human level, not a God level, since I am not a god.

This does not make me “imperfect”, it makes me human. A creator understands ALL about his creations; but creations cannot understand ALL about their creator.

ok this is a different topic in and of itself. I want to stay on topic on this thread. Thank you for your efforts though!! :clapping: I appreciate it! Does everyone else also believe it is a mystery or is there an explanation?

 

[Tonks40]

Emad:

ok this is a different topic in and of itself. I want to stay on topic on this thread. Thank you for your efforts though!! :clapping: I appreciate it! Does everyone else also believe it is a mystery or is there an explanation?

Yes, I believe it’s a mystery, and I’m sure you’ll find tons of Christians who believe this, too.

Just because it’s a mystery, and defies human logical explanation doesn’t dispute the fact that it’s true.

 

[Emad]

Tonks40:

Yes, I believe it’s a mystery, and I’m sure you’ll find tons of Christians who believe this, too.

Just because it’s a mystery, and defies human logical explanation doesn’t dispute the fact that it’s true.

Great, to you your belief and to me mine. I choose to not base my faith on any mystery, certainly not anything so basic as the common view of God. You are free to believe whatever you want. However it doesn’t mean we can’t be friends and still love each other as humans. I was just looking for an explanation and I thank you for your efforts.

 

[MariaG]

Emad:

Great, to you your belief and to me mine. I choose to not base my faith on any mystery, certainly not anything so basic as the common view of God. You are free to believe whatever you want. However it doesn’t mean we can’t be friends and still love each other as humans. I was just looking for an explanation and I thank you for your efforts.

I am slightly confused.

In a discussion with other Muslims, they said that God’s nature can not be fully understood. Yet here you seem to be claiming that we can understand everything about God, (at least that is the implication since we say this is a mystery and you seem to wish to have everything explained about the nature of God)

What is official Muslim teaching in regards to this?

Or do I misunderstand what you are saying?

From this side of the fence, either you are wrong, the other Muslims I talked to were wrong, or there seems to be some hyposcrisy (Islam does not need to explain the nature of God because we can’t fully understand, Christianity must because…)

I mean no disrespect. I don’t understand.

God Bless,
Maria

Note: I am looking for the exact quote. I believe it was either on this thread about the Trinity, or this one about why Islam sees Jesus as a prophet. Possibly this one on Jesus’ Crucifixion

I also acknowledge the possibility I just did not understand the position the Muslim was taking. I am still looking for the original converstation to help put things in context.

I can’t remember who said that the nature of God cannot be fully understood, I just know it was with a Muslim and on a thread I participated in. I will keep looking. I don’t like to make unsubstantiated claims of things people said.

 

[rlg94086]

Emad:

Great, to you your belief and to me mine. I choose to not base my faith on any mystery, certainly not anything so basic as the common view of God. You are free to believe whatever you want. However it doesn’t mean we can’t be friends and still love each other as humans. I was just looking for an explanation and I thank you for your efforts.

Wow! I did not know that muslims know everything there is to know about Allah. No mysteries at all. I’m impressed. They must be omniscient then.

Allah, on the other hand, is apparently limited in His abilities…can not become human.

 

[Emad]

Wow! I did not know that muslims know everything there is to know about Allah. No mysteries at all. I’m impressed. They must be omniscient then.

I never claimed that, our basic concept of God is understandable and not a mystery. This thread isn’t about Muslim beliefs, so please don’t throw it off topic.

Allah, on the other hand, is apparently limited in His abilities…can not become human.

Again this thread is not about Islamic belief.

 

[Emad]

I am slightly confused.

In a discussion with other Muslims, they said that God’s nature can not be fully understood. Yet here you seem to be claiming that we can understand everything about God, (at least that is the implication since we say this is a mystery and you seem to wish to have everything explained about the nature of God)

What is official Muslim teaching in regards to this?

Or do I misunderstand what you are saying?

This thread isn’t about Muslim beliefs, please if you can’t answer the question don’t try to throw it off topic. Muslims basic understanding of God is easy to be understood by anyone. Not everything about God, but the basics atleast.



Back to topic please, if you wish to discuss Islam’s view of God open a new thread. This thread is about how God can be Perfect and Imperfect at the same time.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

But I thought we had already said that God made Man, Jesus Christ, is NOT both perfect and imperfect.

He is perfect God and perfect man.

To be “man” does not mean to be imperfect.

A human being is not omnipotent because human beings were not created to BE omnipotent. Saying that a human’s “lack” of omnipotence makes him “imperfect” is like saying that because a human is not God Almighty a human is not perfect. And thus it is saying that because God supposedly then “created imperfection” that GOD is not perfect.

Have you ever seen a perfect flower? Size, color, fragrance, all combined into the best possible flower. But that flower is not omipotent. . .so I guess it’s “imperfect” acording to you.

Or, to go to sentient creatures–ever seen a perfect dog–(I like watching dog championships)? Coat, proportions, temperament, obedience, size, health. . .just perfect. But again, I guess since the dog is not omniscient, it is imperfect according to you.

God created perfect humans–Adam and Eve. But even perfect people have the capacity to do imperfect things. Why? If a person could ONLY DO ONE THING–perfection–that person is NOT FREE. The person must be free to do both good and evil. .

Jesus and Mary, perfect beings, had the capacity to do imperfect things. . .but freely chose not to do so.

All human beings, thanks be to God, who delivered us from sin and death, have likewise the capacity to choose good, to “be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” (these words are addressed not to Jesus but FROM Jesus to his disciples and thus to all of us). JESUS, our brother, firstborn of the redeemed, has given us through His death and resurrection salvation from sin and evil. Because of His PERFECT sacrifice, we are all justified and saved, through His Holy name. Blessed be God.

 

[MariaG]

Emad:

I am slightly confused.

In a discussion with other Muslims, they said that God’s nature can not be fully understood. Yet here you seem to be claiming that we can understand everything about God, (at least that is the implication since we say this is a mystery and you seem to wish to have everything explained about the nature of God)

What is official Muslim teaching in regards to this?

Or do I misunderstand what you are saying?

This thread isn’t about Muslim beliefs, please if you can’t answer the question don’t try to throw it off topic. Muslims basic understanding of God is easy to be understood by anyone. Not everything about God, but the basics atleast.



Back to topic please, if you wish to discuss Islam’s view of God open a new thread. This thread is about how God can be Perfect and Imperfect at the same time.

Respectfully Emad, no matter what the the subject of the thread is, when you challenge teachings of the Catholic Church, they need to be consistent with your own teachings. You can certainly critique and criticize Catholic Christian beliefs, disagree with but to critique them with a standard that is different than what is applied to Islam, you will be challenged. By challenging the statements that say complete understanding of the nature of God is a mystery, your inconsistent position will be pointed out to you.

The disagreement, then would not be whether or not some of the nature of God is a mystery, but what is a “basic” and what is not.

The nature of Christ, God the Son, the BASICS, are that He is fully God and fully human. The nuts and bolts of HOW that is possible, are a mystery since the full nature of God can never be fully understood although we attempt to do so in our finite way.

originally posted by Emad
Ok, that’s all you needed to say. It’s a mystery, thus there is no explanation. Why base your eternal destiny on a mystery? Is it better to base it on something logical and understandable or a mystery? Would God really make such basic teachings about Himself a mystery?

To Catholic christians “basics” are understood. The HOW of the basics are not always as easy to understand.

And as has been so skillfully pointed out by Tantum Ergo, Jesus was not imperfect Man. To imply that otherwise is to somehow say that God made an imperfect creation in Adam and Eve. He did not. They were perfect until they sinned.

Jesus is referred to as the “New Adam” in the New Testament and the Early Church fathers. He was a perfect man just as God’s original creation was also perfect.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[rlg94086]

I have no interest in learning about Islam now that I know that Allah has limitations. Obviously, I was incorrect in thinking that Allah and God are the same. A God with limitations can not be the one, true God.

Others have explained very clearly that God was able to become human as Christ. Fully divine and fully human. How He did it, we don’t know. There are a lot of things we don’t know regarding how God does things, just as there are a lot of things you don’t know about Allah’s method of doing things.

Emad:

Wow! I did not know that muslims know everything there is to know about Allah. No mysteries at all. I’m impressed. They must be omniscient then.

I never claimed that, our basic concept of God is understandable and not a mystery. This thread isn’t about Muslim beliefs, so please don’t throw it off topic.

Allah, on the other hand, is apparently limited in His abilities…can not become human.

Again this thread is not about Islamic belief.

 

[Emad]

Tantum ergo:

But I thought we had already said that God made Man, Jesus Christ, is NOT both perfect and imperfect.

He is perfect God and perfect man.

To be “man” does not mean to be imperfect.

A human being is not omnipotent because human beings were not created to BE omnipotent. Saying that a human’s “lack” of omnipotence makes him “imperfect” is like saying that because a human is not God Almighty a human is not perfect. And thus it is saying that because God supposedly then “created imperfection” that GOD is not perfect.

Have you ever seen a perfect flower? Size, color, fragrance, all combined into the best possible flower. But that flower is not omipotent. . .so I guess it’s “imperfect” acording to you.

Or, to go to sentient creatures–ever seen a perfect dog–(I like watching dog championships)? Coat, proportions, temperament, obedience, size, health. . .just perfect. But again, I guess since the dog is not omniscient, it is imperfect according to you.

God created perfect humans–Adam and Eve. But even perfect people have the capacity to do imperfect things. Why? If a person could ONLY DO ONE THING–perfection–that person is NOT FREE. The person must be free to do both good and evil. .

Jesus and Mary, perfect beings, had the capacity to do imperfect things. . .but freely chose not to do so.

All human beings, thanks be to God, who delivered us from sin and death, have likewise the capacity to choose good, to “be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” (these words are addressed not to Jesus but FROM Jesus to his disciples and thus to all of us). JESUS, our brother, firstborn of the redeemed, has given us through His death and resurrection salvation from sin and evil. Because of His PERFECT sacrifice, we are all justified and saved, through His Holy name. Blessed be God.

Ok then lets forget the word perfect. Humans sleep God doesn’t sleep. How can God do both at the same time? Humans relieve themselves God doesn’t, how can both exist at the same time? The nature of man and God are different.

 

[Emad]

MariaG blue
Emad black

The nature of Christ, God the Son, the BASICS, are that He is fully God and fully human. The nuts and bolts of HOW that is possible, **are a mystery ** since the full nature of God can never be fully understood although we attempt to do so in our finite way.

That’s all you had to say, it’s a mystery thus there is no explanation.

To Catholic christians “basics” are understood. The HOW of the basics are not always as easy to understand.

Explain some more please. So you can understand something as long as you don’t think about it?

You can certainly critique and criticize Catholic Christian beliefs, disagree with but to critique them with a standard that is different than what is applied to Islam, you will be challenged. By challenging the statements that say complete understanding of the nature of God is a mystery, your inconsistent position will be pointed out to you.

In Islam we don’t understand everything about God, however there is nothing contradictory about Him. We don’t say He is One and then break Him into 3. We don’t say He doesn’t need anyone or anything, then say He eats. We don’t say He wasn’t born, then say He was born. Get what I mean?

 

[Emad]

rlg94086:

I have no interest in learning about Islam now that I know that Allah has limitations. Obviously, I was incorrect in thinking that Allah and God are the same. A God with limitations can not be the one, true God.

Others have explained very clearly that God was able to become human as Christ. Fully divine and fully human. How He did it, we don’t know. There are a lot of things we don’t know regarding how God does things, just as there are a lot of things you don’t know about Allah’s method of doing things.

Ofcourse God has limitations. As a human you have your limitations because you are human, you can’t become another creature, if you did you would no longer be human, but you would be that other creature. If God were to be human, He would no longer be God but human. God doesn’t sleep, so if He sleeps, He is no longer God. You are a human, if you transform into a car, your not human anymore. If you have four legs, a tail, and bark your definitely not human are you? You are a human and limited to being a human. God is God and limited to being God, He can’t be anything else but the best and perfect in EVERY way. Anything description that denies him that isn’t part of Him and is man made.

 

[Faith101]

I have no interest in learning about Islam now that I know that Allah has limitations. Obviously, I was incorrect in thinking that Allah and God are the same. A God with limitations can not be the one, true God.

Would a god who goes to the bathroom be the one true God?

Allah does not do what does not befitt the majesty of a divine being, which He is. THis includes eating, sleeping, being scared, being tempted by the devil, etc.

Others have explained very clearly that God was able to become human as Christ. Fully divine and fully human. How He did it, we don’t know. There are a lot of things we don’t know regarding how God does things, just as there are a lot of things you don’t know about Allah’s method of doing things.

No Muslim can tell you more about God then what is revealed in the Quran and the sunnah of the prophet. We only have the basic knowledge…we dont know everything, and no one can claim they know everything about God.

 

[MariaG]

Emad:

MariaG blue
Emad black response back in by Maria in green

The nature of Christ, God the Son, the BASICS, are that He is fully God and fully human. The nuts and bolts of HOW that is possible, **are a mystery **since the full nature of God can never be fully understood although we attempt to do so in our finite way.

That’s all you had to say, it’s a mystery thus there is no explanation.

The explanation is that Christ while fully God is also fully human.

The “How” can be somewhat of a mystery. The Catholic Church has attempted to explain. Some understand it better than others.

I know you said you do not like links, but this is a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The section it will take you to is specifically about the incarnation of Christ.

To Catholic christians “basics” are understood. The HOW of the basics are not always as easy to understand.

Explain some more please. So you can understand something as long as you don’t think about it?

I advise you to look at the link. It can explain it more succintly, and then you could ask further questions from there.

You can certainly critique and criticize Catholic Christian beliefs, disagree with but to critique them with a standard that is different than what is applied to Islam, you will be challenged. By challenging the statements that say complete understanding of the nature of God is a mystery, your inconsistent position will be pointed out to you.

In Islam we don’t understand everything about God, however there is nothing contradictory about Him. We don’t say He is One and then break Him into 3. We don’t say He doesn’t need anyone or anything, then say He eats. We don’t say He wasn’t born, then say He was born. Get what I mean?

Yes, I understand what you are saying while disagreeing with what you say.

We don’t break God into 3. God is one. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

**253 **The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”​

I was going to try and tackle the next one, about eating, but I will confess to you that I am not an exact enough person when it comes to language use. What you are asking for requires a great attention to word choice. I feel I would simply make things more confusing as well as inadequately represent the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I will chime in, but I feel I need to bow out for the most part here. My apologetics are not at the level you need to explain this accurately.

I would however encourage you to go and read some of the Catechism online, (or buy a hardcopy). It can help to at least understand the Catholic teachings more easily. (notice I said understand, not agree )

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

May God bless you and keep you safe,
Maria

 

[Emad]

MariaG thanks for your efforts. I realize now that there is no reasonable explanation to it. I will however read those links if I have time.

 

[Emad]

Faith101:

Would a god who goes to the bathroom be the one true God?

I certainly don’t think so, but others are free to believe as they wish and that is perfectly fine.

 

[Scholastic17]

Emad:

I opened a thread about this issue before and I would like to discuss it again. How can God be God (perfect) and man (imperfect) at the same time. Can something be completely black and completely white at the same time? Can someone be blind and see at the same time? Also do Catholics believe God is in everything or can become anything?

A) Jesus was without sin, including Original Sin.

B) The Athanasian Creed explains all of this pretty well.

ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

1. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

1. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

1. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

1. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

1. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

1. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

1. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

 

[Emad]

Scholastic17:

A) Jesus was without sin, including Original Sin.

B) The Athanasian Creed explains all of this pretty well.

ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

You didn’t explain anything at all, you only repeated the part I was confused about. You are posting in the end of this thread. Others have made similar comments to yours. Please go back and read through the thread.

 

[Scholastic17]

Emad:

You didn’t explain anything at all, you only repeated the part I was confused about. You are posting in the end of this thread. Others have made similar comments to yours. Please go back and read through the thread.

Ok. Well i have a question for you. You seem baffled by Christ being God and Man. I am baffled by your disbelief. Answer me this: Do you believe in the sin of Adam?