Perfidious Non-Catholics?

[Bubba_Switzler]

In a couple other threads, Eugene_v_ said:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pagan:a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.(dictionary.com)

Jew: Person of the Jewish Religion

Heretic - a baptized person who rejects a dogma of the Catholic Church. Heretics are automatically excommunicated from the Church (ipso facto) without any declaration for rejecting an authoritative teaching of the Faith.

Schismatic - a baptized person who refuses communion with a true pope or with true Catholics. Schismatics are almost always also heretics. Schismatics also incur automatic excommunication.

In essence, based on the definition of Heretic and Schismatic, those who are Not Catholic, or outside of the Church of Christ are those whom the Church has Dogmatically defined as “unlinked”

His post went unanswered. This goes against my understanding of post-Vatian II Church teaching, but who am I to argue with a Pope speaking infallibly?

What’s the story?

 

[MarcoPolo]

The Church still believes those outside must be “joined” to it to be saved. The Church still teaches all who are saved are done so through the Church. There is formal joining to the Church, or even informal by Trinitarian baptism of other Christians or by desire, which are ways non-Catholics or those who have never heard the Gospel to be saved. The Pope’s words above are conditional upon “unless they are joined…”

See Catechism #'s 846-848.

 

[ckempston]

The Church still believes those outside must be “joined” to it to be saved. The Church still teaches all who are saved are done so through the Church. There is formal joining to the Church, or even informal by Trinitarian baptism of other Christians or by desire, which are ways non-Catholics or those who have never heard the Gospel to be saved. The Pope’s words above are conditional upon “unless they are joined…”

See Catechism #'s 846-848.

I don’t bring this up very often, because I think most Catholics are of the opinion that most others who are validly baptized and live as Christians are indeed saved. The problem is, most of us fit the description of heretic or schismatic, which are specifically mentioned here as destined for hell. So, whatever wiggle room is available for your stated “condition” would not be applicable to most, would it?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The Church still believes those outside must be “joined” to it to be saved. The Church still teaches all who are saved are done so through the Church. There is formal joining to the Church, or even informal by Trinitarian baptism of other Christians or by desire, which are ways non-Catholics or those who have never heard the Gospel to be saved. The Pope’s words above are conditional upon “unless they are joined…” See Catechism #'s 846-848.

Let me be perfectly frank: I’m having a real hard time squaring that circle. I’ve read the Catechism before and never gave it much thought until I saw Eugene’s quote.

At best, the “unless they are joined” seems like the exploitation of a loophole. The quote explicitly lists those who are not joined. It makes no sense to read the quote as allowing for joining while Jewish, for example.

“Baptism by desire” is usually meant to cover those who drop dead after the decision to baptize but before the actual ceremony (or in the case of infants, where the parents desired).

 

[Genesis315]

It bears pointing out that just being wrong or mistaken does not make you a heretic–a Baptized person who is wrong, but not a heretic is still united to the Church. There has to be a spirit of obstinant resistance or neglect of truth. It also bears pointing out, although it may be obvious, that simply being ignorant does not make one automatically saved.

What we do affirm and what has always been affirmed is that God will not let anyone be left without access to salvation who repents of his sins, loves God above all and truly desires the truth and to be saved–at some time before their death, He will offer them the means of salvation, either by ordinary or extraordinary means. If they accept those means, they are not heretics, schismatics, Jews or pagans, but sons of the Church.

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t bring this up very often, because I think most Catholics are of the opinion that most others who are validly baptized and live as Christians are indeed saved. The problem is, most of us fit the description of heretic or schismatic, which are specifically mentioned here as destined for hell. So, whatever wiggle room is available for your stated “condition” would not be applicable to most, would it?

Actually, most of you do not fit the description of a heretic or schismatic. In order to qualify for those lofty titles, you must know full well what the CHurch teaches and why you should accept it, then deny it.

 

[Binary]

Here’s how one might reconcile the apparent conflict.

Since Vatican II, the Catholic church has come to embrace the idea of the “anonymous Christian,” which may as well be called the anonymous Catholic. By the process of baptism of blood or desire (see catechism passages below), one becomes a member of the church. So the last part of cantate domino becomes superfluous, since when one sheds blood for Christ, one is immediately baptised into the church.

[1257](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1257.htm’) The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
[1258](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1258.htm’) The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
[1259](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1259.htm’) For *catechumens *who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. [1260](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1260.htm’) "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

 

[ckempston]

Actually, most of you do not fit the description of a heretic or schismatic. In order to qualify for those lofty titles, you must know full well what the CHurch teaches and why you should accept it, then deny it.

I guess I better stop studying.

 

[Genesis315]

Shedding of blood for Christ has to be defined. One who obstinately perseveres in his formal heresy, refusing to reconcile with the Body of Christ, who is killed by Muslims, for example, would not be saved.

Baptism by blood presupposes good faith.

 

[ralphinal]

I guess I better stop studying.

Oh heaven’s no. Just keep on studying. Ignorance of the law is no defence. Besides, you may be happy as to where it leads.

 

[Genesis315]

I guess I better stop studying.

Willful neglect of truth causes one to separated just the same as obstinant denial of it. It is that firm desire for the true faith and the unconditional openness to it and to the grace of God that is necessary for everyone.

As with any other objectively grave sin or deviation for the faith, we cannot judge it to be mortal in a particular soul, but we should warn that it is potentially so.

 

[ckempston]

Oh heaven’s no. Just keep on studying. Ignorance of the law is no defence. Besides, you may be happy as to where it leads.

Of course. Just kidding. I can only trust in God, who is both Merciful and Just, to grant me correct understanding.

 

[ckempston]

Willful neglect of truth causes one to separated just the same as obstinant denial of it. It is that firm desire for the true faith and the unconditional openness to it and to the grace of God that is necessary for everyone.

As with any other objectively grave sin or deviation for the faith, we cannot judge it to be mortal in a particular soul, but we should warn that it is potentially so.

I’d agree. Sorry, that was a flippant comment that should have been accompanied by an emoticon.

 

[Binary]

Ignorance of the law is no defence.

I encourage continued study also, but the catechism explicitly disagrees with you here.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Here’s how one might reconcile the apparent conflict.

Since Vatican II, the Catholic church has come to embrace the idea of the “anonymous Christian,” which may as well be called the anonymous Catholic. …

Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Let me be perfectly clear: I am not advocating the narrower view. I’m just pointing out that this is a revision, not an elaboration.

Last I heard, Catholics were told not to prostelitize to Jews because the OT covenant was still valid for them. (And, besides, it annoys them.)

Most Jews are well aware of the Christian beliefs vaguely, if not explicitly, as they are a minority immersed in a Christian world.

Now it is almost certainly the case that virtually all Jews do not actually believe in Christianity. And you would have to be pretty hard-hearted to think that they were not pursuing the truth. But that is no more true today than it was in Pope Eugene’s days when he explicitly declared that Jews were going to hell.

What do modern Catholics know that Pope Eugene didn’t know?

 

[Binary]

Let me be perfectly clear: I am not advocating the narrower view. I’m just pointing out that this is a revision, not an elaboration.

Last I heard, Catholics were told not to prostelitize to Jews because the OT covenant was still valid for them. (And, besides, it annoys them.)

Most Jews are well aware of the Christian beliefs vaguely, if not explicitly, as they are a minority immersed in a Christian world.

Now it is almost certainly the case that virtually all Jews do not actually believe in Christianity. And you would have to be pretty hard-hearted to think that they were not pursuing the truth. But that is no more true today than it was in Pope Eugene’s days when he explicitly declared that Jews were going to hell.

What do modern Catholics know that Pope Eugene didn’t know?

He explicitly declared that Jews were going to hell “unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives.” Since then, Catholic theologians have determined that there are two other, “invisible” ways that people, Jews included, can be baptised into the church.

 

[notself]

Heretic - a baptized person who rejects a dogma of the Catholic Church. Heretics are automatically excommunicated from the Church (ipso facto) without any declaration for rejecting an authoritative teaching of the Faith.

Well I guess the quote clearly refutes the idea that once a Catholic always a Catholic. Heretics are automatically excommunicated. It is more efficient than having an ex-Catholic write a letter to the Bishop to be removed from the rolls.

 

[ralphinal]

Well I guess the quote clearly refutes the idea that once a Catholic always a Catholic. Heretics are automatically excommunicated. It is more efficient than having an ex-Catholic write a letter to the Bishop to be removed from the rolls.

Excommunicated is not the same as removed from the rolls. To be excommunicated is to be denied the sacraments until the issue is resolved. To leave the Church is to CHOOSE to walk away.

Excommunicated people are still Catholic. They just have to clear up the issue. They may be able to just go to confession. They may have to publically recant a teaching.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

He explicitly declared that Jews were going to hell “unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives.” Since then, Catholic theologians have determined that there are two other, “invisible” ways that people, Jews included, can be baptised into the church.

So, basically, the argument is that he was mistaken in his (apparent) belief that Jews were going to hell because he did not take account of the fact that they are mysteriously joined to the Church already (having nothing to do with anything they do during their lives to move toward the Church)?

That does seem a stretch.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

What do modern Catholics know that Pope Eugene didn’t know?

Pope Eugene IV was speaking to an audience in need of motivation to be Catholic, and he used the common tactic of “us versus them”.

Nothing he said is untrue.

But he didn’t tell the whole truth, because what they needed to hear was the simple fact that if they LEAVE the Church they will be damned.

Jews, for example, just like Catholics, who hold to ACTUAL CONTRADICTIONS of (actual and not “imagined”) Catholic dogma are “doomed”.

Jews, if they are truly following “the old covenant” aren’t actually contradicting (even though certainly not affirming) Catholic dogma, and have a “HUGE claim” to massive socially habitual “inertia” which supports their invincible ignorance.

The same COULD be said for moslems, though their “code of conduct” is such a “massive rewrite” of the old testament and quasi-Christianity, and really more simply an elaboration of the “oddly perceived” requirements of natural law, that their case rests more on the incredible “hard-heartedness” inherent in islam.

But, we’re all in the same boat. If you DO willfully and culpably act on beliefs which contradict Catholic dogma (and natural law) and are unrepentantly unforgiven of them “at death”, then you’re toast for eternity, regardless of which “group” you belong to.

:shamrock2: