Perhaps my time here is over

[CarolsDaughter]

CD,
Your objective has been accoplished I assume. Good for you. But you can never approach anyone thinking you can say anything without being called on it. That is just fact, not Catholic or Protestant. Catholics have an obligation to defend the faith. Those of us who’ve been victimized by so called well meaning Protestants have had to climb a very difficult path. It is a tough road. Many of us have lost good friends and family to the proselytizing, even to Messianic Jews.

I always recommend anyone trying to truly learn about Catholicism to avoid these boards. Only someone with an open heart to the truth will patiently approach it. If you bazooka someone they will only put up their guards. The same goes for all of us. No one is other than imperfect here. But your assessment is probabaly correct. This is probably not a place for you if you feel attacked. It’s not always fun, it even makes you angry. Many times it feels unfair. I actually back off with the scripture beating. I’m good at it, but I’m learning not to be Protestant as are many others here. Some of the other Catholics are tired of beig hit over the head. Many of us have non-Catholic famililies that create chaos in our lives.

Be at peace. Praying for you.

Shalom

I suspect you may be the only person here who understands (or could understand) what I am saying, how most Jews feel.

And I’m glad you brought up the issue of Catholics being proselytized by fundamentalist Protestants (notably, those of the Jack Chick ilk).

JUST AS CATHOLICS GET ANNOYED AT THE CHICK PEOPLE PROSELYTIZING CATHOLICS AND SPREADING FALSEHOODS ABOUT CATHOLICISM, WE JEWS GET SIMILARLY ANNOYED AT THOSE WHO TRY TO CONVERT US.

I’m glad you brought that up, and I wish I’d thought to mention it. Because maybe if you focus on that, you will understand how WE ALSO feel.

 

[planter654]

I only found this forum a few days ago, while doing an online Google for customs and legends surrounding Holy Week (I was looking up something my late mother had told me years ago).

That online search led me to this forum, where there was a thread about the subject I was researching.

I have to say that, until I came here, I had never once in my 48 yrs had a Roman Catholic proselytize me. That was a major reason why I have always felt far closer to Catholics than to Protestant fundamentalists (many of whom have disgusted me with their blatant attempts to proselytize me, including a “born again” nurse who had the nerve to try to missionize me in the hospital room where my mother lay terminally ill.)

I really thought Catholics were different, nicer, more respectful of the beliefs of others (at least in more modern times, anyway). And with many of you, that is the case.

What Christians don’t realize is, when you shove your beliefs onto others even after they clearly inform you they are not interested (and in fact, can adequately show why they don’t believe in your faith), you really turn people off.

I have worked with devout Catholics in both the pro-life and homeschool communities, and we have always gotten along so well. We have found much common ground on moral issues. And none have ever tried to proselytize me.

I find I am feeling differently about Catholics since being here, and I don’t like it. I want to believe that (most) Catholics are truly decent people who learned their lessons from the days of the Inquisition, and who believe in the American princple of respect for the religions of others.

But I think for me to return to the feelings I had previously, I need to leave this forum. I wish that were not true, but it seems it is.

I have been a countermissionary for almost 30 years. This means I have done volunteer work to get impressionable young Jews out of cults, and yes, out of mainstream Christian and other non-Jewish groups as well. We have had a very high success rate.

But I am also active in the ecumenical mvmt, which means I work to try to find common ground between Jews and Christians. Because of this, I work to help Jews understand Christianity, and to help Christians understand Judaism. There is too much hate and bigotry on BOTH sides, and I work to help end this.

But it won’t end until the “my religion is better than yours” business stops. I doubt that will happen any time soon here, so I have to say Shalom to you all.

Shalom aleichem/pax vobiscum,

Carol’s Daughter

You are not the only Catholic that feels the way you do. The same thing I thought when I found this site! I was questioning my personal doubts about the Catholic church teachings, so I ask Jesus some questions for he hears and is teaching me. I found this Catholic web site, I could not believe what I was reading! Catholics bashing others exspecial Protesants and others, who do believe in God and Jesus. So sad, so sad. I Ask, seek and knock in simply asking Jesus our Lord. I Trust in God only, he is a living God and always hears and answers prays!

I now call myself a very child of God!!

Goo Bless you

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Jews were created by God with a special holiness in order to be able to keep Torah. Unfortunately, many Jews got away from keeping Torah, and that same Divine spark which was instilled in them for keeping Torah, is now channeled into “isms” which are not very Jewish at all…Communism, Socialism, liberalism, zionism, and the like. Conversion to other religions can be grouped in with that as well.

I agree that Jews need to rediscover faith in God. That is something religious Jews work on, which is why groups like Chabad reach out to the nonreligious Jews.

What saddens me are nonreligious Jews who are searching for spirituality, but instead of first discovering their birthright faith, they go lusting after the fleshpots of Egypt, so to speak.

It makes sense to start at home first. Its comparable to a person raised Catholic who is lapsed, and when they seek spirituality, go to Zen Buddhism first.

Why not go home to their first faith and give it a fair chance, before going elsewhere?

I would agree with you here. I would first take a Jewish born person through the OT to understand their covenant with God. Then I would take them through the prophesies of the OT and show them EXACTLY where they were fulfilled in the NT and prove to them that their Messiah did come in the form of Christ. I cant think of a more wonderful experience(IMHO)then to see a Jew become a fulfilled Jew.
The Messiah came for you guys first and you rejected Him and by God’s grace we(gentiles)were grafted in to the plan of salvation.

Im not sure if you have read Romans but if not please do. You can see the anguish Paul had for his fellow jews not believing Christ was the Messiah.

Anyway, you are right one should start where a person is in their spiritual life or lack of and go from there.

AMEN!!

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You’re basically telling us to not observe our religion because it offends you.

Yep. Christians have no choice but to convert where possible.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

To do otherwise is leaving people to Hell.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Maybe because Judaism has become so secular saying it’s ok not to observe Torah, or even believe in God. A lot find more spirituality in Christian beliefs.

Maybe you should clean up Judaism first so they have a fit home to come back to before you drag them away from Jesus.

Judaism has no need to be ‘cleaned up’, if by Judaism you mean Torah observant Judaism. Its just waiting for Jews to discover it.

And some do, including Jews who were raised as Catholics. Has anyone read TURBULENT SOULS by Stephen Dubner? His parents were nonreligious Jews who converted to Catholicism and had 8 children…yet their youngest discovered his Jewish birthright and returned to Orthodox Judaism.

 

[LaMar]

Hi Carol’s Daughter,

Thanks for responding.

Like you, I think converting to anything is silly, because I believe we’ll all end up in the same place (in the ground) and the important things (being good people) are found in all traditions.

You misunderstand. I NEVER said Judaism is better than Christianity. I said Judaism is the only religion FOR JEWS.

Minor, but important point here. What you really mean is that your own narrow interpretation of Judaism is the one-true-way for Jews. Reform and Reconstructionist (and apparently conservative and secular types too) are wrong. Only those who agree with you and your small group are “OK”.

In that, we’ll have to agree to disagree. but I appreciate your civil response and wish you well just the same.

Take Care,

LaMar

 

[BeeSweet]

There is too much hate and bigotry on BOTH sides, and I work to help end this.

But it won’t end until the “my religion is better than yours” business stops. I doubt that will happen any time soon here, so I have to say Shalom to you all.

Jews, unlike Gentiles, have a DIVINE COVENANT with God, which is eternal. It is not the same as a “religion”, though it is seen that way by others.

Gentiles are free to adopt any religion they wish; this is because they do not have a Divine Covenant with God.

You don’t feel that by saying no one but a Jew has a divine covenant with God is in effect saying Judaism is superior?

If a Gentile TRULY loves the Jewish people as they often claim to, they will encourage all Jews to STAY JEWISH and keep Torah.

We pray for the conversion of Jews and of all people to know the Love of God through His Son Jesus Christ, and we do this because we love them.

Romans Chapter 11

And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a pitfall and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs for ever.”
So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

Leave this forum if you must, but know that your participation here or lack thereof has no effect on our prayers for your conversion and the conversion of all Jews and non-Christians. Our prayers for your conversion are done out of love.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Judaism has no need to be ‘cleaned up’, if by Judaism you mean Torah observant Judaism. Its just waiting for Jews to discover it.

I mean Judaism in general. Do you think Humanistic Judaism should be considered a valid form of Judaism, when it says belief in God isn’t important?

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Hi,
I am not sure why it would seem unusual to have Catholics to be a bit more agressive on a Catholic forum than in your normal daily dealings with Catholics. True, most Catholics do not proselytize ‘strangers’ but this is ‘our’ house if you get my meaning. If I were on a Jewish forum I might expect the same from you but I doubt it would upset me as I would be cognizent of where I was standing. I have not read your post history, but if you are challenging belief systems what do you expect?

I am NOT challenging the Catholic belief system, as I have stated elsewhere here, I have DEFENDED the Catholic church to Jews, Protestants and even to bitter ex-Catholics, when I felt the church should be defended. I have had other Jews and some protestants give me strange looks at times, because I defended the Catholic church over certain historical issues (Galileo, the Inquisition) where I felt the church had been wronged.

I did not say anything about the Christian religion until AFTER some tried to proselytize me. I am in the same unfortunate situation as rabbis in the Middle Ages were…they were blatantly proselytized when they were minding their own business theologically, and in order to show WHY they cannot accept Christianity, they basically have to disprove Christianity, and then they are accused of trying to badmouth Christianity! Its a lose-lose situation .

If a Christian is going to try to compel me to accept their religious views, then they must also accept that I am more than able to explain why I don’t believe in Christianity, and they will just have to deal with the fallout from something THEY STARTED.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

They can observe Torah and believe in Jesus too.

I guess then, following that logic, that a person can be a good Catholic and worship Krishna?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I guess then, following that logic, that a person can be a good Catholic and worship Krishna?

I believe Jesus is human Messiah, but not born a God or deity. Something like the Muslims, as I told you before. So there is no conflict there with Jewish belief.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

You are not the only Catholic that feels the way you do. The same thing I thought when I found this site! I was questioning my personal doubts about the Catholic church teachings, so I ask Jesus some questions for he hears and is teaching me. I found this Catholic web site, I could not believe what I was reading! Catholics bashing others exspecial Protesants and others, who do believe in God and Jesus. So sad, so sad. I Ask, seek and knock in simply asking Jesus our Lord. I Trust in God only, he is a living God and always hears and answers prays!

I now call myself a very child of God!!

Goo Bless you

I’m not a Catholic or a Protestant, I thought my initial post made that clear?

 

[jmcrae]

I guess then, following that logic, that a person can be a good Catholic and worship Krishna?

Torah isn’t a belief system; it’s a lifestyle. No eating of pork, cheese, shellfish, etc.

You can live the lifestyle, and believe in Jesus. After all, it is Jesus who gave the Torah to Moses in the first place.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

I believe Jesus is human Messiah, but not born a God or deity. Something like the Muslims, as I told you before. So there is no conflict there with Jewish belief.

I didn’t realize you believed that. I’m going to say something that will shock you.

You are right: there is no real conflict with Judaism if you regard Jesus as a mortal man and not deity. The PRIMARY problem Judaism has with Christian belief in Jesus is their claim for his deity. This is rooted in Deut. 4 and many other portions of Torah.

Have you ever read the books about Jesus, Mary and Paul written by the Yiddish writer, Sholom Asch? I think you’d find them very interesting, since he wrote them from the same perspective (i.e., Jesus, Mary and Paul as historical figures with no deity involved.)

I remember discussing this with an Orthodox (!) rabbi, and he agreed with me that if a Jew believes in Jesus as messiah b ut not divine, he is not transgressing Jewish law.

Jesus cannot be the JEWISH Messiah because he did not qualify (genealogically or prophetically), BUT there is nothing in Jewish law that says a Jew cannot believe in him as messiah anyway.

As the rabbi said to me, “A Jew would be a fool to think Jesus was the messiah when he did not fulfill the prophecies, but there is nothing in Jewish law against being a fool”.

Its the DIVINITY that is the problem, more than anything else. because Jews know that God does not adopt human form, that was something pagans in ancient times believed about their deities and rulers.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I am NOT challenging the Catholic belief system, …

OK

I did not say anything about the Christian religion until AFTER some tried to proselytize me. …

Ignore them if you don’t want to debate.

If a Christian is going to try to compel me to accept their religious views, then they must also accept that I am more than able to explain why I don’t believe in Christianity, and they will just have to deal with the fallout from something THEY STARTED.

How someone is compelled to do anything on-line is funny to me, but then I am funny that way.

I have a question if you will. Do you have any opinion on the Wisdom book by Ben Sira (Ecclesasticus) included in the Catholic cannon? I understand it is not accepted by Jewish scholars for some reason…I think. I know it is not included in other Christian bibles but I am unsure at how Jews view it. It is one of my favorites and was just curious.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Jesus cannot be the JEWISH Messiah because he did not qualify (genealogically or prophetically), BUT there is nothing in Jewish law that says a Jew cannot believe in him as messiah anyway.

Its the DIVINITY that is the problem, more than anything else. because Jews know that God does not adopt human form, that was something pagans in ancient times believed about their deities and rulers.

Well then you know you can accept Jesus as human Messiah, so there is no problem there.

As for lineage, I say Jesus is the son of David and Bathsheba who God killed for David’s sin. Then he was resurrected into Mary and was killed for sins of all Jews. So he was born of a miracle like Isaac was. And he was the real Messiah, not his younger brother Solomon whose reign ended in failure for following other gods.

As for fulfilling ALL the prophecies, Jesus is the light of the Gentiles when it comes to a human Messiah of Israel. And as Suffering Servant he must be rejected first before he can prevail in the end to complete his job, just like Elijah must also return.

So there is precedence for everything about Jesus, if you study enough. And no really good reason to argue against him as Messiah.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

OK

Ignore them if you don’t want to debate.

How someone is compelled to do anything on-line is funny to me, but then I am funny that way.

I have a question if you will. Do you have any opinion on the Wisdom book by Ben Sira (Ecclesasticus) included in the Catholic cannon? I understand it is not accepted by Jewish scholars for some reason…I think. I know it is not included in other Christian bibles but I am unsure at how Jews view it. It is one of my favorites and was just curious.

The works of Ben Sira are very interesting, and I always liked them too. Its funny you mention it, because at my mother’s burial earlier this week, the rabbi read from the works of ben Sira. Its actually traditional at Orthodox Jewish funerals!

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Well then you know you can accept Jesus as human Messiah, so there is no problem there.

As for lineage, I say Jesus is the son of David and Bathsheba who God killed for David’s sin. Then he was resurrected into Mary and was killed for sins of all Jews. So he was born of a miracle like Isaac was. And he was the real Messiah, not his younger brother Solomon whose reign ended in failure for following other gods.

As for fulfilling ALL the prophecies, Jesus is the light of the Gentiles when it comes to a human Messiah of Israel. And as Suffering Servant he must be rejected first before he can prevail in the end to complete his job, just like Elijah must also return.

So there is precedence for everything about Jesus, if you study enough. And no really good reason to argue against him as Messiah.

Wow, that’s a pretty wild belief about Jesus, if you don’t mind me saying so.

How did you arrive at it?

 

[Kaninchen]

If a Christian is going to try to compel me to accept their religious views, then they must also accept that I am more than able to explain why I don’t believe in Christianity, and they will just have to deal with the fallout from something THEY STARTED.

You have been rather lecturing them you know (including on Shabbat with other things going on as well?). I realize that I don’t have much room to talk (given my “it’s all just ‘Harry Potter/Lord of The Rings’ to me” approach) but I don’t spend much time on this part of CAF.

Any non-Catholic, never mind non-Christian (you should see, week in and week out what the Muslim posters have to contend with) has to be pretty philosophical here, no matter how experienced. I’ve not got your experience, only the experience of too many years than I like to think about on message boards (including the ‘good old days’ of unmoderated boards with numbers of hard-line anti-Semites) and I have to say that CAF can be rather good fun if you just sit back a bit and, without giving an inch, join in when there’s something you’re particularly interested in or know something about.

 

[jmcrae]

As for lineage, I say Jesus is the son of David and Bathsheba who God killed for David’s sin. Then he was resurrected into Mary and was killed for sins of all Jews. So he was born of a miracle like Isaac was. And he was the real Messiah, not his younger brother Solomon whose reign ended in failure for following other gods.

This is definitely not a Christian belief. We don’t believe in reincarnation at all.

As for fulfilling ALL the prophecies, Jesus is the light of the Gentiles when it comes to a human Messiah of Israel. And as Suffering Servant he must be rejected first before he can prevail in the end to complete his job, just like Elijah must also return.

So there is precedence for everything about Jesus, if you study enough. And no really good reason to argue against him as Messiah.

This part is Christian.