Perhaps my time here is over

[Jerusha]

There should be no value judgment placed on it??

 

[jmcrae]

If you had truly been reading my posts, you’d know I’m a she, not a “sir”,

I’m not angry in general, but when people in ignorance try to tell me I have to join their religion, it tends to be annoying (even though I should be used to it by now.)

How would you feel if a fundamentalist Protestant where you work kept leaving “Are Roman Catholics Christian?” or “The Jesus Cookie” tracts on your desk, and kept telling you you were going to a Christless eternity in hell because you are a “Papist”?

Is anybody here doing anything at all similar to that?

You have to log on to see the comments here, and it’s a Catholic web site; it’s natural that the Catholic point of view, along with the individual points of view of the members, would be posted here.

This is incredibly mild stuff, compared to what you find in a Chick tract, first of all, and secondly, nobody is sticking this stuff on your desk or on your windshield or anyplace else where you would run into it by accident.

 

[happyseppy]

I originally stumbled upon this forum through a Google search engine, where I was researching to find the origin of something my late mother had once told me about Holy Week. When I saw all the Jewish-related threads here, I decided to stick around to see what it was all about.

Before coming to this forum, I had spent 30 years working to get Jewish kids out of cults, but also, I have been active for almost as long in Jewish-Christian ecumenical dialogue and understanding. I’ve worked with some of the most well-known Christian and Jewish leaders in this area. I also had the great honor and privilege years ago, of corresponding personally for a year, with the late John Cardinal O’Connor, who was a very important man in the field of Jewish-Catholic relations, as well in the pro-life movement (another movement I am active in). I save all his letters, and cherish them. He encouraged me to be the best Jew I could be, and he **never once **tried to convert me to Catholicism. He was a far better human being, and a far better Catholic, than some of what I see on this forum.

But after my experience here, I don’t know what to believe anymore about Catholicism. Until now, I encouraged Jewish-Catholic interaction, believing as I did that the Catholic church was no longer the way it used to be in some ways. But maybe I was wrong: dead wrong.

Maybe the position of the very Orthodox (Jews) is the right one after all: we keep our distance from them, and we hope they will keep their distance from us.

Maybe that is for the best, after all.

I am not sure how my post (that you respoded to here) may have offended you, it was not intended to do so.

Peace,

Kelly

 

[Lapell]

Lapell analogized religion to radical politics earlier, but this isn’t directed at him specifically. S/he is a good example of a rather pervasive phenomenon which doesn’t seem particularly productive.

Peace,

LaMar

Maybe you should show me in which post(s) I did such a thing? It certainly wasn’t and isn’t my intention, whatever you may think.

 

[Lapell]

Whoever said that was WRONG. We do not single out Christianity, it would be just as wrong for a Jew to join ANY other religion, other than that of Torah observance.
Its not only Christianity, but Christianity is the dominant religion in the West, so most people probably focus on that one.

I did have somebody in mind but thought it to be better not to name that person.

 

[Lapell]

Zoller (his REAL name) was a liar and deceiver. He converted to Catholicism because the Jewish community rejected him. Why did they reject him?
He abandoned them at their hour of greatest need, to hide in the Vatican while the Nazis were rounding up his people. A rabbi is supposed to stay with his people, as a shepherd stays with the sheep. He abandoned them, and then had the nerve to try to weasle his way back into their good graces after the war, but they would have none of it.
THAT was the REAL reason why he became a Catholic. Why do you think his baptism was so PUBLIC? He was a meshumad le’hakhis, or apostate for spite, one of the worst reasons a Jew can go shmad.
He did it to tick off his former co-religionists. Because of his deceitful nature and tendency to abandon his people, that frankly, is one Jew I am glad converted out. The Catholics did not get a prize with him, even though Pius XII felt he did.

You read it or heard it? How are you sure it’s not base propaganda from some quarters? It might be, you know, just to discourage other rabbis to be as foolish as this one to convert to Christianity. I doubt it would be otherwise.

 

[Lapell]

Moreover, even if converts from Judaism seem to you to be especially welcome, it has nothing to do with some trophee of any sort. You don’t need it to be admitted in Heaven even according to Christian (including Catholic) standards…
It might be that some among us in the past had an idea of such kind, but it has nothing to do with actual Catholic doctrine.

 

[Lapell]

THey all came at a time when Jews were desperate for a leader who could return them to self-rule. I’m not sure where you are going with this. Akiva would have relied on the scripture and Mishna, (which although not written, actually quotes him at some length. )

Well, didn’t a good number of people believe Bar Kochba to be HIM, the Messiah?

 

[Lapell]

THey all came at a time when Jews were desperate for a leader who could return them to self-rule. I’m not sure where you are going with this. Akiva would have relied on the scripture and Mishna, (which although not written, actually quotes him at some length. )

I meant to say that when “the Messiah” comes, I am quite sure the Jews will want to check out for sure that it’s not a false Messiah, but the real one!
How Rabbi Akiva was fooled, I don’t know. Errare humanum est, and he was human, of course. Maybe a desperate need for a Jewish leader having the upper hand over the invaders and a growing eagerness about this bar Kochba’s deeds (which ones, i don’t know) made examination of the signs of the promised Messiah not careful enough? It’s possible, maybe even likely…

 

[Lapell]

But when the Messiah comes, how will you be absolutely sure that this time, it’s really him? How will you tell the true one from a false one? For I think Maimonides made it clear that waiting for the Messiah (“the” Messiah!) is an essential part of Judaism.

 

[Lapell]

Maybe you haven’t read all my posts (chuckle) ALL of this is old hat to me. See previous posts for the reason why.

You don’t need to trot out your parade of trophy Jews, I already know ALL about them, have read their works, and even have read works by some you probably don’t know of (like Ronda Chervin and the Drogins, not to mention the late Arthur Klyber.)

Jews who become Catholics are not trophy! Not any more than a Catholic who would become a Jew would be a trophy you would display!

 

[LaMar]

But when the Messiah comes, how will you be absolutely sure that this time, it’s really him? How will you tell the true one from a false one? For I think Maimonides made it clear that waiting for the Messiah (“the” Messiah!) is an essential part of Judaism.

HashemEchad’s form or interpretation of Judaism is very different from the one I’m familiar with. But, I’ve asked this question of various relatives (I’m related through marriage to various Hebrews, practicing and not) and I’ll tell you what some Jews believe.

The messiah is not necessarily going to be a human being. The messiah might be an allusion to a sort of golden age. Think of the rennaisance, or maybe Pax Romana in the classical era.

Some liberal Jews feel that “the Messiah” alludes to a specific set of circumstances in which humanity will quit wasting time with warfare, exploitation, environmental destruction, and will work to eradicate class distinctions and inequalities. People will be free to achieve their own potential with education and productive work, and people of every religion (and no religion) will get along together and labor toward common goals.

 

[Righteousone]

If you had truly been reading my posts, you’d know I’m a she, not a “sir”,

I’m not angry in general, but when people in ignorance try to tell me I have to join their religion, it tends to be annoying (even though I should be used to it by now.)

How would you feel if a fundamentalist Protestant where you work kept leaving “Are Roman Catholics Christian?” or “The Jesus Cookie” tracts on your desk, and kept telling you you were going to a Christless eternity in hell because you are a “Papist”?

I know Catholics who have had that done to them, and they got even more annoyed than I have been when Christians try to convert me.

Well, after reading and RESEARCHING my Catholic faith, I know where the truth lies, therefore I would not listen to any one of these people. There are 30,000 denominations with contradictory beliefs and only one Catholic church. Hello???

 

[Lapell]

Maybe you haven’t read all my posts (chuckle) ALL of this is old hat to me. See previous posts for the reason why.

You don’t need to trot out your parade of trophy Jews, I already know ALL about them, have read their works, and even have read works by some you probably don’t know of (like Ronda Chervin and the Drogins, not to mention the late Arthur Klyber.)

I don’t know if they were mentioned to you in an attempt to convert you or in an attempt to show you that there are Jews who become Catholics out of personal conversion. Given that awful things can be said about people of Jewish families, especially eminent people like rabbi Israel Zolli (or Zoller), it sometimes calls for accounts like those in Honey From The Rock, it could be either. It might not stop you believing that these stories are not faithful to the true truth, but they are not meant to make you believe them, but to be told, like Bernadette Soubirous said to a cure who thought she was making people believe false things.

 

[LaMar]

I have a copy of a book titled “Le livre des 613 commandements” which I found in a bookshop of used books in Quebec City about 10 years ago. If nowadays Jews don’t stone some categories of people any more, I can tell you that it’s not thanks to that book, except maybe for the fact that the law of the land prevails, and in Western Europe and in the Americas stoning would certainly look bad and wrong. Maybe even without the law of the land Jews would choose not to apply this any more. But it was still there in that book, though! Which 1930s propaganda are you referring to?
But I mostly had in mind the case of the adulterous woman in the Gospel according to John, and then the deacon Stephen was stoned by a group including the young Saul of Tarse, who later converted to “the Way”, as Christianity was called then (some portray him as having been the leader, but there were people older than him among them!); also, the Apostle Paul of Tarse himself was stoned in Lystra according to the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 14, verse 19. He did not die then though…
So stoning might not be in use nowadays, but it still happened in the first century of what Jews call the Common Era… I don’t believe the Jews would stone anyone nowadays, let this be clear!
I don’t think that because some Jews did stone some people that the whole Jewish people should pay for it. Like Tevye said in “Fiddler On The Roof”, if “a tooth for a tooth” and “an eye for an eye” necessarily had to be applied strictly, “then everyone would be one-eyed and toothless!”

I certainly admit that there are a few mentally ill Jews who might take religion to an unhealthy extreme. When my grandmother-in-law (rip) went to Israel (mid 1990s) she wasn’t allowed to pray in certain areas, because the ultra-religious (i.e. nutcases) had declared some sites to be “male only”, and women had been assaulted in some cases simply for showing up. Women were allowed in these areas only at certain times of the day, when the IDF and Palestinian Authority police could do joint patrols and ensure the safety of female pilgrims.

So, of course there are some Jews who would probably like to stone people to death, in the same way that some Catholics bomb nightclubs and some Mormons practice blood-atonement. These are a tiny minority in every case, and no rational person would judge all Jews, Catholics or Mormons based upon these extreme examples.

 

[Lapell]

Point being Edith Stein was from a STRICT Jewish family. The NT should be taught in Hebrew school because it is part of the bible. Your right, Christianity came out of Judiasm, as Christ came right from the OT. Your arrogance in saying “your faith comes from mine” is really ridiculous because it shows how the OT foreseen Jesus Christ.

Hum!.. New Testament is not meant just for insiders of the Christian faith, but it’s not part of Judaism per se!

 

[Lapell]

What is sad here is Jesus was “rejectd” 2,000 years ago by his own people, things never change. I don’t think the Jews are still “God’s chosen people”. They use to be, but not any more.

Then you are in disagreement with our Church’s Vatican II document Nostra Aetate? It states that they still are God’s chosen people, and so says saint Paul in Rm 9 - 10 - 11 !!

 

[sarah_anne_628]

Don’t be sorry, I appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut.

It would be easy to deconstruct Judaism (or Islam, which is another popular scapegoat on this forum) and make valid points based upon what Judaism actually is. It doesn’t seem to be happening here. The critics seem to be deconstructing a caricature of what they imagine Judaism (Islam, etc.) to be, rather than what it actually is.

Lapell analogized religion to radical politics earlier, but this isn’t directed at him specifically. S/he is a good example of a rather pervasive phenomenon which doesn’t seem particularly productive.

I would love to see a valid critique of Judaism (or Islam, or Mormonism) written by Catholic intellectuals here. I’d learn a lot from it and I hope it appears at some point.

Peace,

LaMar

I agree that many people do try and make their points without knowing enough about the “other side” to be able to have impact. I know next to nothing about Judaism (other than what is outlined in the Bible-and still there-my knowledge is lacking) or Islam or Buddhism…so I don’t even try to make comparisons…I would look like an idiot.

I am actually running into the “lack of information” stuff alot since becoming Catholic. My friends, family and other Christians make the same arguments that I used to make against Catholicism…and they, like I was, are misinformed or misunderstand.

 

[LaMar]

Point being Edith Stein was from a STRICT Jewish family. The NT should be taught in Hebrew school because it is part of the bible. Your right, Christianity came out of Judiasm, as Christ came right from the OT. Your arrogance in saying “your faith comes from mine” is really ridiculous because it shows how the OT foreseen Jesus Christ.

The Book of Mormon should be taught to Catholic kids too, since it is a takeoff of the New Testament.

The New Testament predicts the rise of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and the restoration of the “one true gospel of Jesus Christ” on planet earth.

snark-o-rama

 

[Lapell]

The ignorance in this thread is astounding to me.

“The NT is part of the Bible”, and so must be taught in Jewish schools? REALLY? Its only “part of the Bible” to Christians, and last I checked, Christians are not the only people in existence who follow a Bible.

As (I think) LaMar said, there are Catholics on this thread/forum who sound very tense and hostile; and he’s right, to me it does not sound like a religion that would give someone inner peace.

Traditional Judaism has given me true inner peace; I have a personal relationship with the God of Israel, and He has done many miracles for me, both on a small and large scale, that I would rather die a horrible death than betray Him by joining another faith. I told this as well to the bornagain nurse who had the audacity to blatantly try to convert me in the hospital room where my mother lay terminally ill (this was in early March 2008) She responded with, “Well, I can see your mind is not open”. “Open” to dialogue and mutual understanding, YES. But not “open” to apostasizing and betraying the God of Israel!

But the ignorance and hostility as we’ve seen in this thread is what happens when you have religions (Islam, Christianity) that believe “our way is the only way, and everyone had better believe it too!”

How very sad.

(To LaMar: Yes, I have seen The Believer, a very disturbing yet interesting film. Its based on the life of Daniel Burros, so its based on a true story.)

HashemEchad, according to you did I post anything that sounded to you like “our way is the only way, and everyone had better believe it too” ? Which post(s)? I am willing to examine it and acknowledge it if I ever did, even though in my conscience I don’t think I ever wrote something in such spirit…