Perhaps my time here is over

[Verisimilitude]

The Book of Mormon should be taught to Catholic kids too, since it is a takeoff of the New Testament.

Nope…sorry.

The New Testament predicts the rise of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and the restoration of the “one true gospel of Jesus Christ” on planet earth.

snark-o-rama

This is a Moslem argument for Mohammed, and why both are wrong.

 

[Lapell]

The Book of Mormon should be taught to Catholic kids too, since it is a takeoff of the New Testament.

The New Testament predicts the rise of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and the restoration of the “one true gospel of Jesus Christ” on planet earth.

snark-o-rama

Before a certain age I don’t think it to be advisable.
Where did you see such predictions in the NT? This is news to me…

 

[Lapell]

This is a Moslem argument for Mohammed, and why both are wrong.

Is this indeed? I don’t think so!

 

[LaMar]

When people who claim to believe in God say Gentiles can follow any religion they want, even Satanism, I disagree.

She can come here and say why Jesus isn’t Messiah, I can say her statement is unsound for someone who claims belief in God.

That’s how it works.

I’m actually not very clear on what Satanism (or neo-Naziism, which was brought up earlier) entails.

A logical person who approaches philosophies like these rationally will have a very different reaction than someone who reacts emotionally.

If I knew someone who was indulging in something that seemed self destructive or overtly negative, I wouldn’t slap him around or berate him. HashemEchad’s reaction is the rational one. She doesn’t become the antithesis in the unhealthy dialectic. She treats her neighbor with respect, even if he is outwardly disrespectful.

Racists (or Satanists, or whatever) are accustomed to getting beat up. They like it. Conflict strengthens their resolve. Refusal to indulge them, in contrast, will eventually reveal these philosophies to be a waste of time, and the adherents will drop them for something more interesting/enjoyable/productive.

If you’ve ever read the Autobiography of Malcom X this is a central theme. When Uncle Malcom was getting his *** kicked by White people on a daily basis, it was easy for him to remain a racist. After he went to Mecca, where he was treated with dignity and kindness by Whites, he saw that this was a time-wasting philosophy, and he had the courage to change. He came back seeing people not as Black or White, but as human beings, and he channeled his energies toward eradicating the real problems which were at the roots of racial conflict.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Is this indeed? I don’t think so!

Sure. Both Mormons and Muslims claim that when Christ spoke of the Holy Spirit coming after Him (Pentecost), He was speaking about another prophet to come.

 

[Lapell]

I originally stumbled upon this forum through a Google search engine, where I was researching to find the origin of something my late mother had once told me about Holy Week. When I saw all the Jewish-related threads here, I decided to stick around to see what it was all about.

Before coming to this forum, I had spent 30 years working to get Jewish kids out of cults, but also, I have been active for almost as long in Jewish-Christian ecumenical dialogue and understanding. I’ve worked with some of the most well-known Christian and Jewish leaders in this area. I also had the great honor and privilege years ago, of corresponding personally for a year, with the late John Cardinal O’Connor, who was a very important man in the field of Jewish-Catholic relations, as well in the pro-life movement (another movement I am active in). I save all his letters, and cherish them. He encouraged me to be the best Jew I could be, and he **never once **tried to convert me to Catholicism. He was a far better human being, and a far better Catholic, than some of what I see on this forum.

But after my experience here, I don’t know what to believe anymore about Catholicism. Until now, I encouraged Jewish-Catholic interaction, believing as I did that the Catholic church was no longer the way it used to be in some ways. But maybe I was wrong: dead wrong.

Maybe the position of the very Orthodox (Jews) is the right one after all: we keep our distance from them, and we hope they will keep their distance from us.

Maybe that is for the best, after all.

Well, after some proper inter-religious dialogue do you consider you should keep your distance from ALL of us? Do you frankly hope that ALL of us should keep our distance from you? Haven’t some of us been found decent and respectful enough in your eyes? Maybe you could keep in touch with some of them in PMs?
Your disappointment makes me sad… Maybe my time here in this thread must be over… Anyhow, God bless you all!
Sincerely,
Denis

 

[Lapell]

HashemEchad’s form or interpretation of Judaism is very different from the one I’m familiar with. But, I’ve asked this question of various relatives (I’m related through marriage to various Hebrews, practicing and not) and I’ll tell you what some Jews believe.

The messiah is not necessarily going to be a human being. The messiah might be an allusion to a sort of golden age. Think of the rennaisance, or maybe Pax Romana in the classical era.

Some liberal Jews feel that “the Messiah” alludes to a specific set of circumstances in which humanity will quit wasting time with warfare, exploitation, environmental destruction, and will work to eradicate class distinctions and inequalities. People will be free to achieve their own potential with education and productive work, and people of every religion (and no religion) will get along together and labor toward common goals.

Thank you for this piece of information, LaMar! I do appreciate it.

 

[LaMar]

(To LaMar: Yes, I have seen The Believer, a very disturbing yet interesting film. Its based on the life of Daniel Burros, so its based on a true story.)

That was an extremely Jungian film (I think you and some others will know what I mean). I’m sorry it didn’t get a good reception with a general audience, but I don’t think it was intended to.

It reminded me of Kubrick’s film Full Metal Jacket, and at the same time it reminded me of Chaim Potok’s book My Name Is Asher Lev, for entirely different reasons.

 

[Lapell]

I’m actually not very clear on what Satanism (or neo-Naziism, which was brought up earlier) entails.

A logical person who approaches philosophies like these rationally will have a very different reaction than someone who reacts emotionally.

If I knew someone who was indulging in something that seemed self destructive or overtly negative, I wouldn’t slap him around or berate him. HashemEchad’s reaction is the rational one. She doesn’t become the antithesis in the unhealthy dialectic. She treats her neighbor with respect, even if he is outwardly disrespectful.

Racists (or Satanists, or whatever) are accustomed to getting beat up. They like it. Conflict strengthens their resolve. Refusal to indulge them, in contrast, will eventually reveal these philosophies to be a waste of time, and the adherents will drop them for something more interesting/enjoyable/productive.

If you’ve ever read the Autobiography of Malcom X this is a central theme. When Uncle Malcom was getting his *** kicked by White people on a daily basis, it was easy for him to remain a racist. After he went to Mecca, where he was treated with dignity and kindness by Whites, he saw that this was a time-wasting philosophy, and he had the courage to change. He came back seeing people not as Black or White, but as human beings, and he channeled his energies toward eradicating the real problems which were at the roots of racial conflict.

Sounds worth a lot of gold to me, this thought, LaMar. Even more, actually!

 

[Lapell]

Well, Shalom aleichem to all of you, Jews and non-Jews…**

 

[LaMar]

Before a certain age I don’t think it to be advisable.
Where did you see such predictions in the NT? This is news to me…

Mormons of the true believer variety point to several places in the King James Version of the bible as a foreshadowing of our religious movement. The “other sheep have I” verse is one. The “stick of judah and stick of joseph” is another I remember.

I was being sarcastic, of course. I wouldn’t presume to tell anyone else what to do, and I think if you guys are happy in your tradition then you shouldn’t change it. I differ from many other Mormons in that respect, who feel that they should turn the whole world into a greater Deseret.

 

[HashemEchad]

You read it or heard it? How are you sure it’s not base propaganda from some quarters? It might be, you know, just to discourage other rabbis to be as foolish as this one to convert to Christianity. I doubt it would be otherwise.

It was fully documented in a book by Louis I Newman, Renascence Press, c 1945, entitled, “The Chief Rabbi of Rome Becomes a Catholic”.

I posted a link to either purchase the book (used; its out of print), or read it online.

 

[HashemEchad]

I certainly admit that there are a few mentally ill Jews who might take religion to an unhealthy extreme. When my grandmother-in-law (rip) went to Israel (mid 1990s) she wasn’t allowed to pray in certain areas, because the ultra-religious (i.e. nutcases) had declared some sites to be “male only”, and women had been assaulted in some cases simply for showing up. Women were allowed in these areas only at certain times of the day, when the IDF and Palestinian Authority police could do joint patrols and ensure the safety of female pilgrims.

So, of course there are some Jews who would probably like to stone people to death, in the same way that some Catholics bomb nightclubs and some Mormons practice blood-atonement. These are a tiny minority in every case, and no rational person would judge all Jews, Catholics or Mormons based upon these extreme examples.

Some mentally unbalanced people will sometimes use religion in ways that are mentally unhealthy. This applies in all religions, unfortunately.

Back in the 1970s, I met a girl (10 years older than me, I was a teen then) who had converted to Catholicism, along with her younger sister. They had lost their parents in a car accident when they were young, and they blamed “the Jewish God” for taking their parents, so they converted to Catholicism (sort of a childish “let’s use the Christian god to spite the Jewish God” kind of thing.)

The younger sister seemed especially mentally unbalanced, and often made anti-semitic comments about Jews (they lived in an area of Brooklyn that was heavily Chasidic).

I don’t know what eventually happened to the younger sister, but I became friends with the older one, and she eventually left Catholicism and when she passed away (2002) from an asthmatic attack, she had only recently returned to Judaism (Orthodox variety). In fact a Satmar Chasidic Jew (who ran a health food store she and I often shopped in) paid for her burial and funeral, since she was very poor.

I often felt sorry for both of them, to have lost their parents so young, and to be shuttled from aunt to uncle constantly. But Thank God the older one, my friend, returned to her faith before she died.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I like short good byes a whole lot better.

CDL

 

[LaMar]

I like short good byes a whole lot better.

CDL

I am very glad she’s still here, and I hope she stays as long as she finds this forum amusing or useful.

I agree with HashemEchad on almost nothing. I’m sure if she had a chance, she’d attempt to proselytize my kids, and my wife, and possibly me too.

She holds views that I find not only regressive but also inconsistent. She has described liberal Jews as “stupid” and conversos as flawed, despite the fact that she talks about her mother and husband converting to Judaism. She talks about a birthright religion, which I find ridiculous (if we were to take that idea to its logical conclusion, we might as well all go back to worshiping the sun, or join cave bear cults, or whatever else prehistoric people did).

All that aside, I’ve found her amiable, reasonable and her arguments are well thought out, which is all any of us can ask in our intellectual opponents.

Most of my personal friends are people who challenge me to explain myself when I disagree with them, and most of them are good humored enough to tolerate personal differences in the pursuit of mutual affection. With that in mind, I’d always consider HashemEchad someone who is misguided, but she’s also someone I’d love to go to Starbucks and argue with.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

If I knew someone who was indulging in something that seemed self destructive or overtly negative, I wouldn’t slap him around or berate him. HashemEchad’s reaction is the rational one.

I wouldn’t tar and feather him, or tie him to a rocket and send him to outer space, or or or…

Look, don’t exaggerate. If you believe in the God of Israel, it’s not rational to tell Gentiles satanism or any religion that excludes belief in that God is ok for them. I don’t care how you spin it or cook it or twist it or whatever.

If you REALLY believe in God it is rational to tell people they need to believe in Him too.

 

[uglygal]

How would you feel if someone took your scriptures and deliberately misused them? And then, to rub salt into the wound, beat you over the head with your OWN scriptures, claiming you are “blind” for not seeing the distortions as ‘truth’?

sounds like Islam

 

[LaMar]

I wouldn’t tar and feather him, or tie him to a rocket and send him to outer space, or or or…

Look, don’t exaggerate. If you believe in the God of Israel, it’s not rational to tell Gentiles satanism or any religion that excludes belief in that God is ok for them. I don’t care how you spin it or cook it or twist it or whatever.

If you REALLY believe in God it is rational to tell people they need to believe in Him too.

That’s the thing. I have yet to see her imply it’s “OK” or “not OK”. She simply witholds judgment (unless she’s criticizing those she feels should follow her own limited interpretation of Judaism). She considers it none of her business. That doesn’t mean she approves or disapproves.

I’m sure HashemEchad doesn’t need me to defend her. I’m just pointing out the fact that many are criticizing her for opinions that I haven’t seen her espouse. If she wants me to, I’ll criticize her, as I just did. When I criticize someone, I like to keep my criticism limited to what s/he actually wrote (and I’d welcome her own criticism of my positions too, and I assume she’d limit this to my actual positions, as opposed to creating strawman arguments).

 

[Righteousone]

The Book of Mormon should be taught to Catholic kids too, since it is a takeoff of the New Testament.

The New Testament predicts the rise of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and the restoration of the “one true gospel of Jesus Christ” on planet earth.

snark-o-rama

This is rather ridiculous…

 

[Righteousone]

Some mentally unbalanced people will sometimes use religion in ways that are mentally unhealthy. This applies in all religions, unfortunately.

Back in the 1970s, I met a girl (10 years older than me, I was a teen then) who had converted to Catholicism, along with her younger sister. They had lost their parents in a car accident when they were young, and they blamed “the Jewish God” for taking their parents, so they converted to Catholicism (sort of a childish “let’s use the Christian god to spite the Jewish God” kind of thing.)

The younger sister seemed especially mentally unbalanced, and often made anti-semitic comments about Jews (they lived in an area of Brooklyn that was heavily Chasidic).

I don’t know what eventually happened to the younger sister, but I became friends with the older one, and she eventually left Catholicism and when she passed away (2002) from an asthmatic attack, she had only recently returned to Judaism (Orthodox variety). In fact a Satmar Chasidic Jew (who ran a health food store she and I often shopped in) paid for her burial and funeral, since she was very poor.

I often felt sorry for both of them, to have lost their parents so young, and to be shuttled from aunt to uncle constantly. But Thank God the older one, my friend, returned to her faith before she died.

So what you are trying to say is people who become Catholics are mentally unstable?? Are 1.5 Billion Catholics mentally ill???