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fhansen
Guest
From God. Our ability or inability to control them come from us, even if control requires the choice to partner with Him.
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STT
Guest
Greate. We however have good and evil appetie, love and hate for example. Isn’t God the creator of the both?
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OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
Because God respects freedom- and he has to, because he is all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful. It would be abuse of power if he stopped us from being evil. He also only tolerates evil temporarily. We, humans, are not all-powerful neither all-knowing. Humans stopping humans makes sense because we are equal. Also, if God really wanted to stop sin then no one would have any meaning in sinning- any murderer would just give up on entire murder thing if he knew it can’t work because God will stop him. Removing sin itself means removing motivations behind sins, which is in turn denial of our freedom. It is just that any effects of sin are temporary except effects of our sins on ourselves. If I kill someone he will be resurrected anyway- but I am the one whose soul will be damaged and that can lead to permanent consequence of Hell. It is same concept as with “Why doesn’t God just show to everyone and show them that He exists?” thing.
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OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
That comes from wrong assumption that without God’s creation there would be nothing- or rather from definition of nothing…
Perhaps without God creating anything there would have been only hate and evil things. After all, God is what is good. Definition of good is “comes from God”, not vice-versa. Therefore if God allows us to separate from himself he allows us to bring on the world everything bad, and to have everything bad. Default state without God is not neutral, but evil.
S
STT
Guest
So you think that we bring bad into the world? How we could if we had only good nature? How could we possibly experience bad if everything including our nature was good? We need to have evil nature to feel hate. We are not creator of our nature.
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OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
No, but we are allowed to choose. Our nature was good by default until we chose to deny it, and hence it transformed. That is original sin- though Sin did exist through Satan even before.
I am saying that without God, universe is evil, not neutral. We can choose to either bring out bad or good. Freedom is good but can be abused. Heat is good thing- without it, life is almost unimaginable… though burning people is a bad thing. Good things can be abused- that is essentially freedom.
S
STT
Guest
Are you saying that the origion of sin returns to Satan? Did He feel the pride before commiting the promise to become enemy of human? Where the feelings come from?
So you think that our nature is pure evil?
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fhansen
Guest
Not in the Christian scenario. For example, there’s a righteous, healthy kind of anger that we can exhibit: moral outrage, for example, that detests evil when we see it; this anger comes from the right place and can result in good. There is also a more common underlying anger in this world that hates goodness, or just hates, and that causes harm. They may both be based on an innate good desire and faculty but the human will can distort those desires and faculties and use them for it’s own purposes, seeking some lesser perceived good.
We can look and aspire towards something higher, a higher level of righteousness, or not. We can choose to gossip about some person and their failures, to make ourselves feel better about ourselves, perhaps, or we can take the higher moral road and choose not to gloat over such things and desire a better future for the person. We can choose-whether to express virtue or not. In any case all evil is committed in the pursuit of some perceived good.
We can look and aspire towards something higher, a higher level of righteousness, or not. We can choose to gossip about some person and their failures, to make ourselves feel better about ourselves, perhaps, or we can take the higher moral road and choose not to gloat over such things and desire a better future for the person. We can choose-whether to express virtue or not. In any case all evil is committed in the pursuit of some perceived good.
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Vico
Guest
Moral good, moral evil, physical good, physical evil.Vico:
Does good is existence?
Catechism
[175] Summa Contra Gentiles (Aquinas) III, 71
https://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraGentiles3a.htm#71
K
Kullervo
Guest
It wasn’t just a choice between ignorance and free will. It was a choice between God and sin. God didn’t want us to eat of the apple, so it was a sin. The first sin which started history and the world as we know it today.
If you choose the apple you choose knowledge which is a good thing, but with it comes evil, sin, natural disasters and everything bad we experience.
Was it really a good idea to eat the apple?
If you choose the apple you choose knowledge which is a good thing, but with it comes evil, sin, natural disasters and everything bad we experience.
Was it really a good idea to eat the apple?
T
thistle
Guest
There was no apple. That is not in the Bible.
Also the sin was not eating the fruit. The sin was disobedience.
K
Kullervo
Guest
Ok, not apple but fruit. Tradition staytes it was an apple because in medieval Europe almost all fruit could have been called apple.
Sure, eating it wasn’t a sin, but being disobedient God was. Since God forbid eating of the fruit we can be pretty sure that the knowledge of good and evil wasn’t something God wanted us to have.
Sure, eating it wasn’t a sin, but being disobedient God was. Since God forbid eating of the fruit we can be pretty sure that the knowledge of good and evil wasn’t something God wanted us to have.
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STT
Guest
Can you deny the existence of evil nature which creates the feeling of anger which is not due to righteousness?
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STT
Guest
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STT
Guest
Is existence good? Sorry for mistype.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
It seems to be an unspoken assumption that we ought to know why God does things. That is an arrogant position to take. God is God. We are not. No one on earth knows fully the mind of God. On some questions God has revealed why He does something. But on many other things He has not. It is arrogant to assume we even could understand the mind of God. Inevitably such speculations lead to drawing bad conclusions. For those who value the love of God toward them, be willing to say on some questions “I don’t know.” Speculation is fine, as long as it is admitted to be only that.
J
Jen7
Guest
“For freedom we have been set free”… but because freedom is what it is, the possibility of abusing it hangs in the balance. It is the risk God takes for the possibility of a personal, loving relationship with you and me.
Have you read the Grand Inquisitor story in Dostoyevsky’s “The Brothers Karamazov”? It raises a similar question. You may find it food for thought!
L
Latin
Guest
THE HUMAN RACE ARE GOD’S BUILDERS AND GOD CAUSES THE HUMAN RACE TO COMPLETE HIS CREATION.
307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, … “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
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WITHOUT WE EVEN KNOW, GOD CONTROLS/ CAUSES OUR WILING AND ACTIONS.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will WITHOUT FORCING IT.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.
“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.”
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St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin.
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311 For almighty God, . . . because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself. 177
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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God bless
307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, … “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
.
WITHOUT WE EVEN KNOW, GOD CONTROLS/ CAUSES OUR WILING AND ACTIONS.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will WITHOUT FORCING IT.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
.
308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.
“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.”
.
St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
.
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin.
.
311 For almighty God, . . . because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself. 177
.
324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
.
God bless
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