perpetual virginity of Mary..T or F?

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I’m sure you do but I guess I will go with it.
Among other wonderful fruits 👍
So disbelieving in a Virgin Birth - is a wonderful fruit :confused:
:eek: and how does that relate to TEC?
The Episcopal Church - did they not originally believe in the Virgin Birth and the perpetual Virginity of Mary? That some have moved from that position is not relevant :confused: to you or the topic at hand - especially with the views of one of your well known Bishops ? …
And that is extremely sad. Some Catholics do not believe Pope Francis is a true pope. That is sad as well. Right?
Sad … sure - there are misguided people everywhere - but that is not the topic at hand - nor even on the same theological level 🤷
 
You actually know better than that Randy. You’ve seen the verses already. In the context, usage, and the actual events as recorded point to James and Jesus being siblings. Again, I understand the RCC tradition trumps that view in your eyes. That’s your belief, and I respect it.
🙂

No, it is the ANCIENT belief of the Christian Church that Mary remained ever virgin. The idea that she did not, first broached by Helvidius, was roundly panned by Jerome. It would be another thousand years or so before anyone took up this foolishness again. That is a matter of historical record, Kliska.

And now, just to demonstrate what happens when folks become untied from their moorings:

EARLY PROTESTANTS ON THE PERPETUAL VIRGINITY OF MARY

Martin Luther (1483-1546)


“Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb…This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”

“Christ…was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him…I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”

“A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ…Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity.”

“Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity…When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her…This babble…is without justification…he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”

John Calvin (1509-1564)

Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned. {Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}

Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }

Huldreich Zwingli (1484-1531)

He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . To deny that Mary remained ‘inviolata’ before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting - not prayer - ‘Hail Mary’ . . . God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels - it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow. Prayer, however, must be . . . to God alone . . .
‘Fidei expositio,’ the last pamphlet from his pen . . . There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}

Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on ‘Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.’
{Thurian, ibid., p.76}

I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity. {Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}

Heinrich Bullinger (1504-1575)

“The Virgin Mary…completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all…now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.”

John Wesley (1703-1791)

“I believe…he [Jesus Christ] was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after as she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”
 
So disbelieving in a Virgin Birth - is a wonderful fruit :confused:
Protestantism produces many wonderful fruits. Spong is not one. I’m sure you and I will agree on that. 🙂
The Episcopal Church - did they not originally believe in the Virgin Birth and the perpetual Virginity of Mary? That some have moved from that position is not relevant :confused: to you or the topic at hand - especially with the views of one of your well known Bishops ? …
TEC still believes in the virgin birth of our Lord. If individuals moved to that belief than they are no longer Episcopalian. Simple as that.
Sad … sure - there are misguided people everywhere - but that is not the topic at hand - nor even on the same theological level 🤷
Sure it does…you present Spong as the voice of TEC, or I may be mistaken. 🙂
 
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The texts cited at the beginning of this article show beyond a doubt that there existed a real and near kinship between Jesus and His “brethren”. But as “brethren” (or “brother”) is applied to step-brothers as well as to brothers by blood, and in Scriptural, and Semitic use generally, is often loosely extended to all near, or even distant, relatives (Genesis 13:8, 14:14-16; Leviticus 10:4; 1 Chronicles 15:5-10, 23:21-22), the word furnishes no certain indication of the exact nature of the relationship. Some ancient heretics, like Helvidius and the Antidicomarianites, maintained that the “brethren” of Jesus were His uterine brothers the sons of Joseph and Mary. This opinion has been revived in modern times, and is now adopted by most of the Protestant exegetes. On the orthodox side two views have long been current. The majority of the Greek Fathers and Greek writers, influenced, it seems, by the legendary tales of apocryphal gospels, considered the “brethren” of the Lord as sons of St. Joseph by a first marriage. The Latins, on the contrary, with few exceptions (St. Ambrose, St. Hilary, and St. Gregory of Tours among the Fathers), hold that they were the Lord’s cousins. That they were not the sons of Joseph and Mary is proved by the following reasons, leaving out of consideration the great antiquity of the belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary. It is highly significant that throughout the New Testament Mary appears as the Mother of Jesus and of Jesus alone. This is the more remarkable as she is repeatedly mentioned in connexion with her supposed sons, and, in some cases at least, it would have been quite natural to call them her sons (cf. Matthew 12:46; Mark 3:31; Luke 8:19; Acts 1:14). Again, Mary’s annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem (Luke 2:41) is quite incredible, except on the supposition that she bore no other children besides Jesus. Is it likely that she could have made the journey regularly, at a time when the burden of child-bearing and the care of an increasing number of small children (she would be the mother of at least four other sons and of several daughters, cf Matthew 13:56) would be pressing heavily upon her? A further proof is the fact that at His death Jesus recommended His mother to St. John. Is not His solicitude for her in His dying hour a sign that she would be left with no one whose duty it would be to care for her? And why recommend her to an outsider if she had other sons? Since there was no estrangement between Him and His “brethren”, or between them and Mary, no plausible argument is confirmed by the words with which he recommends her: ide ho uios sou, with the article before uios (son); had there been others sons, ide uios sou, without the article, would have been the proper expression.

The decisive proof, however, is that the father and mother of at least two of these “brethren” are known to us. James and Joseph, or Joses, are, as we have seen, the sons of Alpheus, or Clopas, and of Mary, the sister of Mary the Mother of Jesus, and all agree that if these are not brothers of the Saviour, the others are not. This last argument disposes also of the theory that the “brethren” of the Lord were the sons of St. Joseph by a former marriage. They are then neither the brothers nor the step-brothers of the Lord. James, Joseph, and Jude are undoubtedly His cousins. If Simon is the same as the Symeon of Hegesippus, he also is a cousin, since this writer expressly states that he was the son of Clopas the uncle of the Lord, and the latter’s cousin. But whether they were cousins on their father’s or mother’s side, whether cousins by blood or merely by marriage, cannot be determined with certainty. Mary of Clopas is indeed called the “sister” of the Blessed Virgin (John 19:25), but it is uncertain whether “sister” here means a true sister or a sister-in-law. Hegesippus calls Clopas the brother of St. Joseph. This would favour the view that Mary of Clopas was only the sister-in-law of the Blessed Virgin, unless it be true, as stated in the manuscripts of the Peshitta version, that Joseph and Clopas married sisters. The relationship of the other “brethren” may have been more distant than that of the above named four.

The chief objection against the Catholic position is taken from Matt 1:25: “He [Joseph] knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son”; and from Luke 2:7: “And she brought forth her firstborn son”. Hence, it is argued, Mary must have born other children. “Firstborn” (prototokos), however, does not necessarily connote that other children were born afterwards. This is evident from Luke 2:23, and Ex 13:2-12 (cf. Greek text) to which Luke refers. “Opening the womb” is there given as the equivalent of “firstborn” (prototokos). An only child was thus no less “firstborn” than the first of many. Neither do the words “he knew her not till she brought forth” imply, as St. Jerome proves conclusively against Helvidius from parallel examples, that he knew her afterwards. The meaning of both expressions becomes clear, if they are considered in connexion with the virginal birth related by the two Evangelists.

newadvent.org/cathen/02767a.htm
 
Umm… no, I don’t. I believe it is quite clear from scripture that James was Jesus’ brother.
James the Great (d. AD 44)

James, son of Zebedee (died 44 AD) was one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus. He was a son of Zebedee and Salome, and brother of John the Apostle. He is also called James the Greater to distinguish him from James, son of Alphaeus, who is also known as James the Less.

James the Just, James the Less (d. AD 62)

“Brother of the Lord” – Matthew 13:55, Galatians 1:19
Son of Alphaeus (Clopas) and Mary of Clopas
Author of the Book of James

Saint James the Just (Hebrew: יעקב)Yaakov (Greek Iάκωβος)Iakobos, (died AD 62), also known as James the Righteous, James of Jerusalem, James Adelphotheos, or James, the Brother of the Lord, was an important figure in Early Christianity. The Catholic Encyclopedia concludes that, based on Hegesippus’s account, it is “probable” that James the Just is also James the Less, and in line with “most Catholic interpreters”, that he is therefore James, son of Alphaeus as well as James the son of Mary Cleophas. He is not, however, identified with James the Great.

James the Just was the leader of the Christian movement in Jerusalem in the decades after Jesus’ death, but information about his life is scarce and ambiguous. Apart from a handful of references in the Gospels, the main sources for his life are the Acts of the Apostles, the Epistles of Saint Paul, the historian Josephus, and St. Jerome, who also quotes the early Christian author Hegesippus. The Epistle of James in the New Testament is signed by him, and he is the author of the Apostolic Decree of Acts 15. He is sometimes said to be the first of the Seventy Apostles. In the Epistle to the Galatians, Paul of Tarsus describes his first visit to Jerusalem where he met James and stayed with Cephas (Simon Peter). Hegesippus describes him as a vegetarian.
 
Protestantism produces many wonderful fruits. Spong is not one. I’m sure you and I will agree on that. 🙂

TEC still believes in the virgin birth of our Lord. If individuals moved to that belief than they are no longer Episcopalian. Simple as that.

Sure it does…you present Spong as the voice of TEC, or I may be mistaken. 🙂
Somehow I can’t imaging a Catholic Bishop would remain in place as the Bishop for 8 years after writing that book and holding that view … Can you? …

He wrote many others that are contrary to mainline Christian thought - like denying the resurrection of Jesus in Resurrection: Myth or Reality? A Bishop’s Search for the Origins of Christianity … 1994

Yet Bishop Spong was the Bishop of Newark from 1972 - 2000 … the copyright on that book was 1992 … and as the Bishop Newark - did he not speak for the Episcopal Church - or do I not understand how the Episcopal Church operates … When my Bishop speaks on matters of faith - I listen …
 
Again, I understand the RCC tradition trumps that view in your eyes. That’s your belief, and I respect it.
Will you respect the belief of St. Jerome, also? He wrote:

“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man.”

This quote is taken from chapter 19 of St. Jerome’s work, “Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary—a work written in A.D. 383 in response to the teaching of Helvidius who denied that Mary had remained a virgin throughout her life.

In this passage, Jerome states that Ignatius of Antioch (d. A.D. 107), Polycarp of Smyrna (d. A.D, 155), Justin Martyr (d. A.D. 165) and Irenaeus of Lyons (d. A.D. 202) all held that Mary was ever-virgin. It is especially important to note that both Ignatius and Polycarp were disciples of the Apostles Peter and John—a fact which ties this discussion directly to the original Twelve Apostles of Jesus.

Although the works of these men with which Jerome was evidently familiar do not survive to this day, the fact that Jerome cites them in his refutation of Helvidius provides evidence that belief in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary existed from the earliest days of the Church.

It is interesting to note that Helvidius never responded to Jerome’s refutation.
 
Somehow I can’t imaging a Catholic Bishop would remain in place as the Bishop for 8 years after writing that book and holding that view … Can you? …

He wrote many others that are contrary to mainline Christian thought - like denying the resurrection of Jesus in Resurrection: Myth or Reality? A Bishop’s Search for the Origins of Christianity … 1994

Yet Bishop Spong was the Bishop of Newark from 1972 - 2000 … the copyright on that book was 1992 … and as the Bishop Newark - did he not speak for the Episcopal Church - or do I not understand how the Episcopal Church operates … When my Bishop speaks on matters of faith - I listen …
He spoke and wrote his opinion. Bishop Spong is not the topic of this thread. Although he holds a certain view, that view is not of TEC nor any other Christian faith tradition. 🙂
 
He spoke and wrote his opinion. Bishop Spong is not the topic of this thread. Although he holds a certain view, that view is not of TEC nor any other Christian faith tradition. 🙂
True enough about Spong … though your downplaying his role as Bishop is convenient for you …

However, he is a perfect example of how Christian ‘Truth’ can progress … and is representative of where we are in this discussion …

After all - the Church and Christianity held to the perpetual virginity of Mary for nearly 1800 years - few in dissent of that view … from its antiquity … and the position that she did not remain a virgin being recent and an innovation … one that has caused division and strife - confusion among the faithful [and I can only imagine the confusion in the Episcopal Church your good Bishop caused] … additional discord in a fractured Church -

Is the Perpetual Virginity of Mary True or False … that is a question that deserves and answer … and where is the Christian to turn? Where is that authoritative voice?

As a Protestant - I am sure you will say the scriptures … but as this thread gives testimony to [and the Bishops books - as they relate to the topic of this thread] the Scriptures can lead different people in different directions … and is our God the author of confusion and division or of unity and [one] Truth?

I say he is the author of Truth and Unity … so where do the Scriptures direct us - to the Church … and what does the Church say regarding the question perpetual virginity of Mary…T or F? … the Church states with certainty ***Yes - Mary is Ever Virgin ***…

And if you need more - so does history in the writings of the first Christians, the Early Church Fathers, the Church/Christians through time … and yes - even Luther, Zwingli and Calvin… all in harmony with the scriptures …
 
Will you respect the belief of St. Jerome, also? He wrote:

“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man.”

This quote is taken from chapter 19 of St. Jerome’s work, “Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary—a work written in A.D. 383 in response to the teaching of Helvidius who denied that Mary had remained a virgin throughout her life.

In this passage, Jerome states that Ignatius of Antioch (d. A.D. 107), Polycarp of Smyrna (d. A.D, 155), Justin Martyr (d. A.D. 165) and Irenaeus of Lyons (d. A.D. 202) all held that Mary was ever-virgin. It is especially important to note that both Ignatius and Polycarp were disciples of the Apostles Peter and John—a fact which ties this discussion directly to the original Twelve Apostles of Jesus.

Although the works of these men with which Jerome was evidently familiar do not survive to this day, the fact that Jerome cites them in his refutation of Helvidius provides evidence that belief in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary existed from the earliest days of the Church.

It is interesting to note that Helvidius never responded to Jerome’s refutation.
As usual Randy - you ROCK 👍
 
I do believe there is scripture to support the idea of Mary having children after Jesus. I don’t see anything in scripture that would lead me to believe she didn’t. I believe she and Joseph were actually married, and as such would have had relations after the birth of Jesus. In fact, that was a defining feature in Jewish culture, or so I’ve found in research.

I also think that helps explain James as the head of the organized church in Jerusalem.
I can go either way on this one. The important thing is the virgin birth. After that it really doesn’t matter to me either way. I think she had other kids or raised Joseph’s kids. She will always be my mother and I love her.
 
True enough about Spong … though your downplaying his role as Bishop is convenient for you …
Episcopalian Bishop James Stanton of Dallas said:
First, Spong styles himself a judge of the church, but that is not his actual role. Rather, his continued presence as a bishop in this church constitutes a judgment upon us. While Spong’s published positions are well outside any meaningful definition of the Christian faith, this has not taken him outside the [Episcopal] church. By retaining his office while making a travesty of the faith he was ordained to guard, he has dragged much of the church into darkness with him.

It cannot be said much better than that. This is the last I will speak of Spong on this thread and I hope you can respect that. 🙂
Is the Perpetual Virginity of Mary True or False … that is a question that deserves and answer … and where is the Christian to turn? Where is that authoritative voice?
We can turn to the ECFs. I have never stated it was false. I do not see why it must be a doctrine when it plays no role in the path of salvation. Would Christ still be Christ if Mary was not an ever virgin?
As a Protestant - I am sure you will say the scriptures … but as this thread gives testimony to [and the Bishops books - as they relate to the topic of this thread] the Scriptures can lead different people in different directions … and is our God the author of confusion and division or of unity and [one] Truth?
As an Episcopalian, I subscribe to Scripture and Tradition my friend. 👍
 
I can go either way on this one. The important thing is the virgin birth. After that it really doesn’t matter to me either way. I think she had other kids or raised Joseph’s kids. She will always be my mother and I love her.
We share that same belief. The virgin birth is the main focus! After that? It is really not a major issue for me.
 
Not one word of scripture disagrees with what JRKH wrote.

Feel free to attempt to prove us wrong, of course.
Actually it does. But since Scripture means little to you because your ecclesial community has declared itself above Holy Scripture, so there’s no point in trying to “prove you wrong”.
 
Of course you are allowed to believe that 👍
  • even promote it 😉
In fact - that is exactly the fruit of Protestantism 😃

You [or whomever your current pastor - spiritual Guru is] are your own Pope -

This makes you answerable only to you - and any like minded Christians in your community -

That is - until of course you disagree - then one of you can move along - :doh2: finding other like minded Christians

or - finding none - :newidea: start your own Church … 👍

Because - Scripture - and my interpretation is all I need 😉 to know all the Truth necessary 😛
Look, as much as I understand (maybe even accept) the “Protestants disagree, who’s right?” argument, I do not appreciate your sarcastic tone. It may be entertaining to you and some people here, but it makes it much harder for potential converts like me to appreciate Catholic apologetics. Speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15).
 
James the Great (d. AD 44)

James, son of Zebedee (died 44 AD) was one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus. He was a son of Zebedee and Salome, and brother of John the Apostle. He is also called James the Greater to distinguish him from James, son of Alphaeus, who is also known as James the Less.

James the Just, James the Less (d. AD 62)

“Brother of the Lord” – Matthew 13:55, Galatians 1:19
Son of Alphaeus (Clopas) and Mary of Clopas
Author of the Book of James

Saint James the Just (Hebrew: יעקב)Yaakov (Greek Iάκωβος)Iakobos, (died AD 62), also known as James the Righteous, James of Jerusalem, James Adelphotheos, or James, the Brother of the Lord, was an important figure in Early Christianity. The Catholic Encyclopedia concludes that, based on Hegesippus’s account, it is “probable” that James the Just is also James the Less, and in line with “most Catholic interpreters”, that he is therefore James, son of Alphaeus as well as James the son of Mary Cleophas. He is not, however, identified with James the Great.

James the Just was the leader of the Christian movement in Jerusalem in the decades after Jesus’ death, but information about his life is scarce and ambiguous. Apart from a handful of references in the Gospels, the main sources for his life are the Acts of the Apostles, the Epistles of Saint Paul, the historian Josephus, and St. Jerome, who also quotes the early Christian author Hegesippus. The Epistle of James in the New Testament is signed by him, and he is the author of the Apostolic Decree of Acts 15. He is sometimes said to be the first of the Seventy Apostles. In the Epistle to the Galatians, Paul of Tarsus describes his first visit to Jerusalem where he met James and stayed with Cephas (Simon Peter). Hegesippus describes him as a vegetarian.
This doesn’t detract from my argument, and I think most of us are all aware of the different “James’” in scripture. I do actually know what many of the reformers believed, and I also understand why they believed that, I just don’t agree with them. 😉
 
I can go either way on this one. The important thing is the virgin birth. After that it really doesn’t matter to me either way. I think she had other kids or raised Joseph’s kids. She will always be my mother and I love her.
Yes, the virgin birth is of highest import and the agreement that she and Joseph didn’t have relations prior to Jesus’ birth. It is indeed a matter of opinion after that, and I don’t see it as a “salvific issue” either way. For me, it is just a matter of what I see in scripture and James being His brother connects a lot of dots both scriptural and historic.

Good to see you on the thread, btw. 🙂
 
Look, as much as I understand (maybe even accept) the “Protestants disagree, who’s right?” argument, I do not appreciate your sarcastic tone. It may be entertaining to you and some people here, but it makes it much harder for potential converts like me to appreciate Catholic apologetics. Speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15).
Well said. This kind of thing from YADA, which others have done also, is so unattractive to me; not because it makes me defensive—it doesn’t—but because it makes me sit back and wonder where Christ is in all this…or if we’re just like any other group of squabbling people who might as well be arguing politics or sports teams.

Happy Near Year to all! Let’s grow up this year, eh?
 
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