perpetual virginity of Mary..T or F?

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SUMMARY OF THE PROTESTANT ARGUMENT SO FAR
  1. Protestant translations of the Bible say that Jesus had “brothers” and “sisters”.
  2. I am not comfortable with or disagree with the Catholic position because this is not what I grew up with; therefore, I refuse to believe it.
Statement 2. is an assumption that in some cases, is totally untrue. I was born and raised Catholic, including 12 years of Catholic school. I did grow up being taught PV. What we are taught growing up does not make something automatically true or false.

Luke 2:7 (DRA)
And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him up in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Notice the 6th word in the Douay Rheims version and many other versions. It is firstborn. Why would the distinction of firstborn be made if there were no subsequent children born? Wouldn’t it just say her son? or her only son? and yet, it says her firstborn son. Hmmmm. It just makes me wonder………

Marilyn
 
pocohombre said:
May we both should defer to each other with this possibility: to err for sure, but also, “there is a spirit in a man, and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding” Job 32 and “multitude of wisdom should teach wisdom” but didn’t with Job’s older friends but the young Elihu was “correct” and in line with God. Whoever is right has* the* authority.
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Right, the Catholic Church. Amen.
 
forever47 said:
Luke 2:7 (DRA)
And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him up in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Notice the 6th word in the Douay Rheims version and many other versions. It is firstborn. Why would the distinction of firstborn be made if there were no subsequent children born? Wouldn’t it just say her son? or her only son? and yet, it says her firstborn son. Hmmmm. It just makes me wonder………

Marilyn
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4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, “first, pre-eminent” and 5088 /tíktō, “bring forth”) – properly, first in time (Mt 1:25; Lk 2:7); hence, pre-eminent (Col 1:15; Rev 1:5).

4416 /prōtótokos (“firstly”) specifically refers to Christ as the first to experience glorification, i.e. at His resurrection (see Heb 12:23; Rev 1:5). For this (and countless other reasons) Jesus is “preeminent” (4416 /prōtótokos) – the unequivocal Sovereign over all creation (Col 1:16).

[4416 (prōtótokos) refers to “the first among others (who follow)” – as with the preeminent, glorified Christ, the eternal Logos who possesses self-existent life (Jn 5:26).]

“Verse 7. - Her firstborn Son. This expression has no real bearing on the question respecting the relationship of the so-called brethren of Jesus to Mary. The writer of this commentary, without hesitation, accepts the general tradition of the Catholic Church as expressed by the great majority of her teachers in all ages”:
Pulpit commentary
 
cmodrmac said:
I agree that the doctrine of Perpetual Virginity of Mary is not central or relevant to salvation-

In this life we will never know will we-I agree the biblical texts can be viewed as supporting
the concept that Jesus had brothers and sisters-even Paul refers to James as the Brother of the Lord-

For Roman Catholics it is dogma-I have never heard one teaching on this issue at our Parish-nor anyone request it

Is it really important -?-
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TEC has no doctrine about the PV Mary. The parish I am a member of is a high church parish with a tough of Anglo-Catholicism. Some view the PV as truth while others, like myself, do not see it as a major belief one should have but do not have an issue with it either. A few more Protestant minded folks do not believe in it.

Many of the first Anglican leaders of the Church did believe in the PV, yet their belief is such was not binding on the faithful. The virgin birth is binding as it is in the Creed.

So I came away with the thought that one can believe or not.It does not matter as far as salvation is concerned.
 
icamhif said:
Look, as much as I understand (maybe even accept) the “Protestants disagree, who’s right?” argument, I do not appreciate your sarcastic tone. It may be entertaining to you and some people here, but it makes it much harder for potential converts like me to appreciate Catholic apologetics. Speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15).
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You really should say that to your Catholic brothers and sisters. I have been shredded and abused and called names and then blamed because it is “good for me” so that I will line up and obey their interpretation of their faith. So it needs to go both ways.
 
Irishgal49 said:
You really should say that to your Catholic brothers and sisters. I have been shredded and abused and called names and then blamed because it is “good for me” so that I will line up and obey their interpretation of their faith. So it needs to go both ways.
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:hug3:
 
Irishgal49 said:
You really should say that to your Catholic brothers and sisters. I have been shredded and abused and called names and then blamed because it is “good for me” so that I will line up and obey their interpretation of their faith. So it needs to go both ways.
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Couple decades ago a movie was released called “Agnes of God” Jane Fonda was an investigator for the DA and was sent to a Catholic convent. Of course the Mother Superior immediately asked her is she was Catholic to which she replied she left the Church. The Mother Superior then asked her why.

She left because the Catholic boys in school teased her about her freckles and told her she would never be a Saint like her sister. She left because of freckles.

The moral of the story is that she forgot to count how many times she was blessed.

We have found consistently that those who walk closest to the Lord suffered the greatest trials.
 
cmodrmac said:
In this life we will never know will we
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This statement might be a good illustration of how trying to please everyone can end up pleasing no one. 🙂

That is, some say that they know that Mary had other children, and some say that they know that she didn’t.
 
pocohombre said:
No more than twisting of children from another marriage or “cousins” or vow of perpetual virginity from mary and joseph.
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The burden of proof is on you to prove that those are not applicable or logical. I’m waiting.
So many prophecies of Christ were not literal ?
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Let’s stay on topic, here.
 
forever47 said:
Notice the 6th word in the Douay Rheims version and many other versions. It is firstborn. Why would the distinction of firstborn be made if there were no subsequent children born? Wouldn’t it just say her son? or her only son? and yet, it says her firstborn son. Hmmmm. It just makes me wonder………

Marilyn
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Jesus IS her first-born son. You don’t need other siblings to be first-born. The distinction is important in historical, Jewish tradition, regardless of any sibling that may or may not exist, and is mentioned as such; but you probably didn’t think of that in your eagerness to side with a preconceived agenda, did you? 🤷
 
What I find absolutely astounding in this thread is some peoples’ apparent lack of ability to recognize that the Holy Family was NOT A STANDARD FAMILY.

You can’t take everything that we consider normal and expect to apply it to them; different historical and cultural setting, plus GOD MADE FLESH.

This is a rather simple idea that people need to wrap their heads around; stop trying to take the mystery and majesty away from God that is His due.
 
Want to ask a question to all the Men here

If you are Saint Joseph, and you know that Mary was choose By God, to be the mother of His Only Son, If you Know that the Holy Spirit take her as a Wife, did you will ever consider touch her? did you will even think to have sex, with the sanctuary where the King of all Human kind took his human form? just asking. Did the angel over tell took your women and the child, or he say take the child and her mother? Mary was never Saint Joseph women, It was her wife, that does not mind they have relations.
 
Amo_a_Jesus said:
Want to ask a question to all the Men here

If you are Saint Joseph, and you know that Mary was choose By God, to be the mother of His Only Son, If you Know that the Holy Spirit take her as a Wife, did you will ever consider touch her? did you will even think to have sex, with the sanctuary where the King of all Human kind took his human form? just asking. Did the angel over tell took your women and the child, or he say take the child and her mother? Mary was never Saint Joseph women, It was her wife, that does not mind they have relations.
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I think I understand what you are asking.

As I wish not to speak for Joseph, I personally would not have if I were him.

Bride of the Holy Spirit will be the big issue with many.
 
I apologize for my English, is not my first language …I think you noticed that already :)🙂

I can change wife or bride of the Holy Spirit, by saying that the Holy Spirit came in to her to give life to Jesus.
 
Amo_a_Jesus said:
I apologize for my English, is not my first language …I think you noticed that already :)🙂

I can change wife or bride of the Holy Spirit, by saying that the Holy Spirit came in to her to give life to Jesus.
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Personally, the bride of the Holy Spirit is really something that is not needed. One could believe Mary to be a PV while not believing in her being the bride of the Holy Spirit.
 
aidanbradypop said:
Personally, the bride of the Holy Spirit is really something that is not needed. One could believe Mary to be a PV while not believing in her being the bride of the Holy Spirit.
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Dustin

Can you accept Luther’s statement that Mary comes right after the Holy Trinity and is second only to Christ?
 
aidanbradypop said:
Or how about this…Mary is the first among the Saints and the Mother of God.
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The problem with Lutherans and Episcopalians is we never disagree :rolleyes:

I wish Itwin/ AbideWithMe & others would help us understand the evolution of rejecting the PV of Mary among many Protestants.
 
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