perpetual virginity of Mary..T or F?

[Kliska]

I understand your point that.Jesus, being all knowing, could have foreseen James wonderful conversion, and said to Mary, “Mary, go live with James, though he can not console you know for his unbelief, he will eventually convert and be a solace to you”. Not too catchy or consoling to me. .Blood is not thicker than spirit . If I had young children and were going to die I would give them to a good friend who was a christian brother/sister more than to a blood brother who was not only not christian, but quite “anti-christian”. Faith demands this for Jesus said whoever does God’s will is my brother /mother etc. I am sorry, but Mary being given unto John and not faithless siblings is perfect, for the two hearts loved Jesus more than any two human beings on earth and were "kindred spirit’ about the mission ahead, beyond Calvary. Furthermore, we are all aware of sin and it’s consequences.Though you may be forgiven, sometimes the consequence may hurt (think David and Bathsheba forgiveness yet with consequence of his children would rail against him for years)… You are correct that Mary, by tradition, should have been given to siblings.That it was not was a wake up call to their unbelief. I believe James may have been miffed at the beginning, but when he got saved he was quite humbled and understood it perfectly, and "being passed up’ made the siblings stronger. A bit like Peter’s denial yet his gracious triumphant “rebound”. He would never forget his depravity when in the flesh ,and how gracious it is to be in the spirit, to be set right, to be forgiven. No wonder James rebounded as much as Peter, for we believe he eventually became bishop in Jerusalem and even wrote scripture. Can you imagine being Jesus’s brother and not just totally missing “it”, but being against it. So close to the creator of the universe yet so lost…Quite a story …may it grip you to the heart as it does me.

Well said and well illustrated.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jesus took care of that by making His pronouncement.

There was no command. And if James really thought Jesus was crazy, he would have ignored Jesus’ words as those of loon.

Because of the other reasons for picking John, including his symbolizing the church.

After his conversion, James was also an important person in the early church, no? As Bishop of Jerusalem, he was the center of the community while John left town. This is a stretch, to say the least.

But as you know, the ancient Catholic Church, the Early Church Fathers, and the early Protestant Reformers are all opposed to your novel ideas.

Suit yourself.

 

[Kliska]

There was no command. And if James really thought Jesus was crazy, he would have ignored Jesus’ words as those of loon.

And then contended with all the witnesses including Mary and John himself? Keep in mind James soon came to believe after the crucifixion. Now believing that Jesus is God, do you think James would gainsay Him?

After his conversion, James was also an important person in the early church, no? As Bishop of Jerusalem, he was the center of the community while John left town. This is a stretch, to say the least.

Yes, some of us see him as the head of the whole organizational church since Jerusalem was the main hub. Even that is not enough to gainsay Jesus’ pronouncement nor to take away all the reasons Jesus entrusted Mary to John.

But as you know, the ancient Catholic Church, the Early Church Fathers, and the early Protestant Reformers are all opposed to your novel ideas.

Suit yourself.

As I said, I’m well aware of the reasoning and the teachings and again state that tradition is the strongest argument on the other side.

 

[YADA]

I understand your point that.Jesus, being all knowing, could have foreseen James wonderful conversion, and said to Mary, “Mary, go live with James, though he can not console you know for his unbelief, he will eventually convert and be a solace to you”. Not too catchy or consoling to me. .Blood is not thicker than spirit . If I had young children and were going to die I would give them to a good friend who was a christian brother/sister more than to a blood brother who was not only not christian, but quite “anti-christian”. Faith demands this for Jesus said whoever does God’s will is my brother /mother etc. I am sorry, but Mary being given unto John and not faithless siblings is perfect, for the two hearts loved Jesus more than any two human beings on earth and were "kindred spirit’ about the mission ahead, beyond Calvary. Furthermore, we are all aware of sin and it’s consequences.Though you may be forgiven, sometimes the consequence may hurt (think David and Bathsheba forgiveness yet with consequence of his children would rail against him for years)… You are correct that Mary, by tradition, should have been given to siblings.That it was not was a wake up call to their unbelief. I believe James may have been miffed at the beginning, but when he got saved he was quite humbled and understood it perfectly, and "being passed up’ made the siblings stronger. A bit like Peter’s denial yet his gracious triumphant “rebound”. He would never forget his depravity when in the flesh ,and how gracious it is to be in the spirit, to be set right, to be forgiven. No wonder James rebounded as much as Peter, for we believe he eventually became bishop in Jerusalem and even wrote scripture. Can you imagine being Jesus’s brother and not just totally missing “it”, but being against it. So close to the creator of the universe yet so lost…Quite a story …may it grip you to the heart as it does me.

And this - you are inventing a story that bolsters your position …

There are two James listed in the Scriptures - followers of Jesus and whose parents are named for us [Hint: not Mary and Joseph] - and who by virtue of their faith and discipleship are rightly the brethren of Jesus …

And yet you and others are convinced that the head of the Jerusalem Church is James the blood brother of Jesus who once thought Jesus was a heretic crazy zealot … and who at some later time - though there is no record of this recorded anywhere - had some great conversion to the Truth of their brother’s Godhead - such that during the earliest formation of the Church [before the Council recorded in Acts] this James had risen to be selected the leader of the Jerusalem Church above all the other faithful disciples …

Sorry - it makes for a great creative chapter in a Dan Brown like story - but it is pure fiction

 

[Randy_Carson]

To me, just shows that people aren’t really understanding the depth of teaching of who are our brothers and sisters. There are only 2 types of humans, and the distinction is clear in the NT; believers and non. I’m kind of surprised that anyone thinks that Jesus would leave Mother Mary with an unbeliever anyway, regardless of the other arguments. Not just an unbeliever but one that called Him crazy and didn’t show to the crucifixion.

Only John was present, so many apostles that you regard more highly were also absent, so do not be so quick to judge.

But who did you spend the holidays with, Kliska? People from your church or with your family? Both perhaps?

And if you were to ignore your parents or family for the sake of spending time with TRUE brothers and sisters at church, would you violate a commandment concerning honoring your father and mother?

 

[Randy_Carson]

And then contended with all the witnesses including Mary and John himself? Keep in mind James soon came to believe after the crucifixion. Now believing that Jesus is God, do you think James would gainsay Him?

Again, Jesus did not command John to take Mary into his home for the rest of her natural life. So, Mary was free to live with James later, no? Especially since he was both a son and a believer later.

Seriously, if a Catholic were offering you such tortured reasoning, would you hear it? :nope:

Yes, some of us see him as the head of the whole organizational church since Jerusalem was the main hub. Even that is not enough to gainsay Jesus’ pronouncement nor to take away all the reasons Jesus entrusted Mary to John.

There was no command.

26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman,** here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

Of course, Peter was the actual head of the Church while James was the head of the local congregation…but that will wait for another thread.

As I said, I’m well aware of the reasoning and the teachings and again state that tradition is the strongest argument on the other side.

Tradition you ignore for reasons known to you alone.**

 

[Kliska]

Only John was present, so many apostles that you regard more highly were also absent, so do not be so quick to judge.

Again another point as to why it was specifically John. He and the Lord had a special relationship.

But who did you spend the holidays with, Kliska? People from your church or with your family? Both perhaps?

I am blessed by the fact that my family is a group of believers. But your question is odd, I’m not denying either is important, but if we are looking at Christian belief, a believer is more a sibling than a non-believer, because believers have God as a Father, nonbelievers don’t.

And if you were to ignore your parents or family for the sake of spending time with TRUE brothers and sisters at church, would you violate a commandment concerning honoring your father and mother?

Honoring your parents doesn’t mean I would have to choose them over my family in Christ. Jesus handing Mary into John’s care is an ultimate act of honoring His Mother (and the church). Handing her into a nonbeliever’s care would not have been.

 

[pocohombre]

The Holy Family is subjective? According to 21st century minds? I could see why.

Who said the Holy Family is subjective ? It was said they were NOT a standard family, and i questioned what is a “standard family”…Having said that I suppose anyhting beyond fact is “subjective” and that has been around since the beginning, and up to the 21st century

 

[Kliska]

Again, Jesus did not command John to take Mary into his home for the rest of her natural life. So, Mary was free to live with James later, no? Especially since he was both a son and a believer later.

That’s not what I see in scripture. Jesus is clear in what He says and His wishes would have been honored by these two. No, in essence I don’t think she would have “been free” to live with James after having been presented to John in such a context.

There was no command.

26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman,** here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.**

I think it is clear that they both knew exactly what Jesus wanted. Further, He could have reversed His statement after His resurrection but it is apparent that He didn’t.

Of course, Peter was the actual head of the Church while James was the head of the local congregation…but that will wait for another thread.

Yes, that is what the RCC teaches, and yes, that’s not the topic of this thread.

Tradition you ignore for reasons known to you alone.

Not ignored, but trumped by scripture. I do think the Messianic Psalm quoted in this thread is indeed referring to Mary’s sons. It makes it that much more poignant that Jesus was rejected by His own brothers, and is another apologetic showing fulfilled prophecy. James’ conversion is in and of itself an awesome apologetic.

 

[GaryTaylor]

O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all. O Ark of the New] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides. Should I compare you to the fertile earth and its fruits? You surpass them, for it is written: “The earth is my foostool”. But you carry within you the feet, the head, and the entire body of the perfect God.

If I say that heaven is exalted, yet it does not equal you, for it is writen: “Heaven is My throne”, while you are God’s place of repose. If I say that the angels and archangels are great — but you are greater than them all, for the angels and the archangels serve with trembling the One Who dwells in your womb, and they dare not speak in His presence, while you speak to Him freely.

If we say that the cherubim are great, you are greater than they, for the cherubim carry the throne, while you hold God in your hands. If we say that the serphim are great, you are greater than them all, for the seraphim cover their faces with their wings, unable to look upon the perfect glory, while you not only gaze upon His face but caress it and offer your breasts to His holy mouth.

As for Eve, she is the mother of the dead, “for in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive”. Eve took fruit from the tree and made her husband eat of it along with her. And so they ate of that tree of which God had told them: “The day you eat of it, you shall die”. Eve took fruit from it, ate some of it, and gave some to her husband that he might eat with her. He ate of it, and he died.

In you, instead, O wise Virgin, dwells the Son God: He, that is, Who is the tree of life. Truly He has given us His body, and we have eaten of it. That is how life came to all, and all have come to life by the mercy of God, your beloved Son. That is why your spirit is full of joy in God your Savior!

St Athanasius,

the-american-catholic.com/2013/01/01/saint-athanasius-on-mary-mother-of-god/

It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master who was born of you. For this reason, you are called full of grace. Remember us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, Virgin full of graces

St Athanasius.

You notice he calls Her most Holy Virgin “after” Christ is born.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Again another point as to why it was specifically John. He and the Lord had a special relationship.

Well, of course. But that has no bearing on whether Jesus commended, not commanded, Mary to John. Knowing all things, Jesus would have known that James would eventually believe. You are stretching this far beyond what is reasonable to bolster a presupposition.

Mary had to have had other children because your English translation says so. Everything else must be explained away.

I am blessed by the fact that my family is a group of believers. But your question is odd, I’m not denying either is important, but if we are looking at Christian belief, a believer is more a sibling than a non-believer, because believers have God as a Father, nonbelievers don’t.

Honoring your parents doesn’t mean I would have to choose them over my family in Christ. Jesus handing Mary into John’s care is an ultimate act of honoring His Mother (and the church). Handing her into a nonbeliever’s care would not have been.

If Mary had other children, children whom Jesus either A) knew would eventually become Christians or B) knew needed Mary’s constant prayer; then it seems unlikely that He had to hand her over to anyone.

To the contrary, knowing of her great faith and sinlessness, it seems more likely that He would have sent Mary into the homes of his brothers and sisters to convert them.

Mary would have had a greater impact on the lives of His siblings, nephews and nieces than Monica had on her son, Augustine.

 

[pocohombre]

Well said and well illustrated.

Thank-you…again.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

The perpetual virginity was taught in the early church. There are numerous examples by the Saints through antiquity.

newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

The late dogma part I’m not understanding, could you elaborate and clarify?

 

[Kliska]

Well, of course. But that has no bearing on whether Jesus commended, not commanded, Mary to John. Knowing all things, Jesus would have known that James would eventually believe. You are stretching this far beyond what is reasonable to bolster a presupposition.

I’m sorry, but there is a whole stack of things that are interconnected, even if you don’t believe it in the same way. I’ve laid out my perspective, and have stated I can see the other side even if I don’t agree with it. If my argument is poor, no one has to agree with it.

Mary had to have had other children because your English translation says so. Everything else must be explained away.

You know it isn’t because of my “English translation” as you can find arguments for it in the Hebrew and Greek as well, esp. by looking at the context of the the verses and the word usage in said verses.

If Mary had other children, children whom Jesus either A) knew would eventually become Christians or B) knew needed Mary’s constant prayer; then it seems unlikely that He had to hand her over to anyone.

To the contrary, knowing of her great faith and sinlessness, it seems more likely that He would have sent Mary into the homes of his brothers and sisters to convert them.

Mary would have had a greater impact on the lives of His siblings, nephews and nieces than Monica had on her son, Augustine.

There wasn’t anything stopping Mary from praying for all her family, I’m sure she did. Just because she was with John would not stop her. Further, Jesus chose John apart from all others, there are obviously multiple reasons for this.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That’s not what I see in scripture. Jesus is clear in what He says and His wishes would have been honored by these two. No, in essence I don’t think she would have “been free” to live with James after having been presented to John in such a context.

I think it is clear that they both knew exactly what Jesus wanted. Further, He could have reversed His statement after His resurrection but it is apparent that He didn’t.

We don’t disagree that Jesus wanted Mary to live with John and for him to care for her. At issue is why.

You believe it is because Mary’s other children, despite growing up with a saintly mother and father and a brother who was God, rejected everything that they had seen and heard from the time of their youths. Well, maybe having such unique parents was of no value to them, but I suspect that if God took such pains to provide His son with parents of great faith and personal holiness, He might have given Jesus siblings who were no less faithful and holy.

Clearly, you think otherwise. God allowed the other children in the family to ignore their parents’ guidance and reject the divinity of their brother - and this despite the facts that 1) their aunt, Elizabeth would have supported Mary and Joseph in their accounts of the angels, etc. and 2) that their cousin, John the Baptist, also pointed to him as the Lamb of God.

That’s an amazing tale, Kliska. Who knew that the Holy Family was so completely dysfunctional.

I do think the Messianic Psalm quoted in this thread is indeed referring to Mary’s sons. It makes it that much more poignant that Jesus was rejected by His own brothers, and is another apologetic showing fulfilled prophecy. James’ conversion is in and of itself an awesome apologetic.

No less so if he was near kin.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Further, Jesus chose John apart from all others, there are obviously multiple reasons for this.

Including the ancient belief that Mary had no other children.

But, hey, maybe all those saints who read the same verses you are reading were simply wrong.

 

[YADA]

Not ignored, but trumped by scripture. I do think the Messianic Psalm quoted in this thread is indeed referring to Mary’s sons. It makes it that much more poignant that Jesus was rejected by His own brothers, and is another apologetic showing fulfilled prophecy. James’ conversion is in and of itself an awesome apologetic.

But then - the Scriptures are a fruit of Tradition - … the Church and Traditions existed before the first new testament letter was ever written - and continued to exist during the time that passed before all of the Letters, Acts, the four Gospels and the Book of Revelation …

But then - the real issue is your adding to the scriptures conjectures about what terms mean, who believed what, when they converted and why and how that impacts what is written …

Conjectures [your protestant version of tradition that is only 200 years old +/-], you definition of words and limitations upon those definitions [again, your protestant version of tradition that is only 200 years old +/-] and mere fictional additions to the scriptures …

And pretty soon you will again say … its my opinion, free to hold it and it does not matter anyway because whether Mary was perpetually a virgin does not impact our salvation …

except … it obviously matters to you - you want so hard to educate the ignorant Catholics who obviously cannot read the scriptures for themselves but only adhere to Traditions - even when those Traditions are clearly [in your mind] contradicted by the Bible …

 

[Kliska]

We don’t disagree that Jesus wanted Mary to live with John and for him to care for her. At issue is why.

You believe it is because Mary’s other children, despite growing up with a saintly mother and father and a brother who was God, rejected everything that they had seen and heard from the time of their youths. Well, maybe having such unique parents was of no value to them, but I suspect that if God took such pains to provide His son with parents of great faith and personal holiness, He might have given Jesus siblings who were no less faithful and holy.

Clearly, you think otherwise. God allowed the other children in the family to ignore their parents’ guidance and reject the divinity of their brother - and this despite the facts that 1) their aunt, Elizabeth would have supported Mary and Joseph in their accounts of the angels, etc. and 2) that their cousin, John the Baptist, also pointed to him as the Lamb of God.

What you are describing is what happened to the Lord all along the way, esp. where people knew Him the most. This wasn’t just their brother quietly going about doing His thing, this was apparent when He was speaking out and teaching in public. Some of the people that are the hardest on us are the ones related to us, I’ve seen identical twins with good parents hate each other. As I said, it seems the Psalm spoke of just such an event, we know that it happened with the vast majority of the nation; rejecting their own Messiah. It speaks of great things that His siblings did convert.

That’s an amazing tale, Kliska. Who knew that the Holy Family was so completely dysfunctional.

The siblings apparently thought Jesus Himself was dysfunctional. You could widen the same claims you make to the whole group of chosen people, or even more specific, look what happened with Judas. There is no guarantee in this world who will or will not recognize the Light. Gratefully they didn’t stay in the dark.

Once more it is about examining all pertinent scripture and then putting it in context. Yes, some words can mean similar things, but often the context is enough to narrow down the meaning. We can also see there is a word for “cousin” in the Greek that was not used. Again, I understand tradition doesn’t hold to the perspective I have.

 

[Kliska]

except … it obviously matters to you - you want so hard to educate the ignorant Catholics who obviously cannot read the scriptures for themselves but only adhere to Traditions - even when those Traditions are clearly [in your mind] contradicted by the Bible …

Yada, anyone that has interacted on here with me could hardly accuse me of trying to “educate the ignorant Catholics.” This is the Non-Catholic forum and this particular thread is asking for different protestant perspective. You can accuse me if you like, that’s your right.

 

[batman1973]

Are you familiar with Pope Benedict XVI who also studies scripture? Very smart guy - probably smarter than you, me and Kliska combined. I agree with him on this matter.

Probably smarter? All the man does is read. I’m well certain he is smarter. But, IMHO, he’s still wrong. Scripture will always trump tradition, escpecially where tradition contradicts Scripture.