Perplexed Protestant

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The flower analogy gives me an idea.

I suppose if we say that eternal life is a tree of life (like that which Adam & Eve enjoyed in the Garden of Eden), & if we say that what makes it a tree of eternal life is the Holy Ghost (for He is the one who is the seal that shows we have this life), as St. Paul wrote:

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession–to the praise of his glory.” (Ephesians 1:13-14)

If that be true, then this is also:

The good works are the evidence that we have the Holy Ghost & eternal life. For St. Paul writes: “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control…” (Galatians 5:22-23).

For what i’m asking are Scriptures that say that this fruit of the Holy Ghost is more than just mere evidence that we have life. Does the New Testament teach that these good deeds done by God are what merit eternal life for us?
 
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Emmaus:
We are the pots " vessels of clay" and the soil (see the meaning of the root word for man or human as in humus).

Luke 8:15
"But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

2 Cor 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;

1 Cor 3:9
For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
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Good quotes, Emmaus. Thanks!
 
Circular reasoning. The Wisdom of Solomon makes a prediction to the Passion of Christ and is considered part of the Canon by Catholics and Orthodox Christians, but is rejected by the Protestants. Yes the Palestinian Jews rejected this book, but they also reject the New Testament.
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I would also like to add what St. Augustine said that “it is not the Jews who determine what books belong to Sacred Scripture but Christians.” After all, they reject the whole NT so why bother in believing them? They probably deliberately reject the Wisdom book because it contains prophecies pointing to Christ, but they were not successful in any way because much of the OT prophecies refers to Christ.

Pio
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
The flower analogy gives me an idea.

For what i’m asking are Scriptures that say that this fruit of the Holy Ghost is more than just mere evidence that we have life. Does the New Testament teach that these good deeds done by God are what merit eternal life for us?
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Socrates:

Part 1 of 2

Lots of allusions to and quotes from Scripture to answer your question. Chapter and verse supplied upon request. Care to guess the source?

“In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be
understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and
expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning
of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible
to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be
justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or
works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,
as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

…

On the increase of Justification received.

Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing
from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the
members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,
they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating
with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ,
and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be
not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and
not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto
us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.”

…

On the gift of Perseverance.

So also as regards the gift of perseverance, of which it is written, He that shall persevere to the
end, he shall be saved:-which gift cannot be derived from any other but Him, who is able to
establish him who standeth that he stand perseveringly, and to restore him who falleth:-let no one
herein promise himself any thing as certain with an absolute certainty; though all ought to place and
repose a most firm hope in God’s help. For God, unless men be themselves wanting to His grace,
as he has begun the good work, so will he perfect it, working (in them) to will and to accomplish.
Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall, and, with fear and
trembling work out their salvation, in labours, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayers and oblations,
in fastings and chastity: for, knowing that they are born again unto a hope of glory, but not as yet
unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat which yet remains with the flesh, with the world, with
the devil, wherein they cannot be victorious, unless they be with God’s grace, obedient to the
Apostle, who says; We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live
according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall
live.

…
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
The flower analogy gives me an idea.

For what i’m asking are Scriptures that say that this fruit of the Holy Ghost is more than just mere evidence that we have life. Does the New Testament teach that these good deeds done by God are what merit eternal life for us?
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Socrates:

Part 2 0f 2

Lots of allusions to and quotes from Scripture to answer your question. Chapter and verse supplied upon request. Care to guess the source?

"On the fruit of Justification, that is, on the merit of good works, and on the nature of that merit.

Before men, therefore, who have been justified in this manner,-whether they have preserved
uninterruptedly the grace received, or whether they have recovered it when lost,-are to be set the
words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the
Lord; for God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown
in his name; and, do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward. And, for this cause, life
eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto the end, and hoping in God, both as a grace
mercifully promised to the sons of God through Jesus Christ, and as a reward which is according
to the promise of God Himself, to be faithfully rendered to their good works and merits. For this is
that crown of justice which the Apostle declared was, after his fight and course, laid up for him, to
be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. For,
whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into
the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies
and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious
before God,-we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being
accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine
law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in
its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace: seeing that Christ, our Saviour, saith: If
any one shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst for ever; but it shall become
in him a fountain of water springing up unto life everlasting. Thus, neither is our own justice
established as our own as from ourselves; nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated: for that
justice which is called ours, because that we are justified from its being inherent in us, that same is
(the justice) of God, because that it is infused into us of God, through the merit of Christ. Neither
is this to be omitted,-that although, in the sacred writings, so much is attributed to good works,
that Christ promises, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones,
shall not lose his reward; and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and
light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;
nevertheless God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself, and not in the Lord,
whose bounty towards all men is so great, that He will have the things which are His own gifts be
their merits. And forasmuch as in many things we all offend, each one ought to have before his
eyes, as well the severity and judgment, as the mercy and goodness (of God); neither ought any
one to judge himself, even though he be not conscious to himself of anything; because the whole
life of man is to be examined and judged, not by the judgment of man, but of God, who will bring
to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then
shall every man have praise from God, who, as it is written, will render to every man according to
his works.”
 
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hlgomez:
I would also like to add what St. Augustine said that “it is not the Jews who determine what books belong to Sacred Scripture but Christians.” After all, they reject the whole NT so why bother in believing them? They probably deliberately reject the Wisdom book because it contains prophecies pointing to Christ, but they were not successful in any way because much of the OT prophecies refers to Christ.

Pio
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hlgomez:

I really like the quote by the Pope. What does the Wisdom of Solomon say in regard to good deeds & salvation?
 
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Emmaus:
Socrates:

Part 2 0f 2

Lots of allusions to and quotes from Scripture to answer your question. Chapter and verse supplied upon request. Care to guess the source?..
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Emmaus:

My guess is the Roman Catholic Catechism. Am i correct?

The language is a little archaic. Will you tell me what it says in your own words?
 
Soc4u, do you understand the parable of the seed sown on rocky ground?
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SocratesforJesus:
i see the possibility that our Lord was speaking of those who at one time truly did trust in & obey Him, but later walked away from Him. It is not as though He had failed them, rather, they failed to stay with Him. … Whether they were truly children of God before they walked away, i’m not sure.
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Possibility? You can’t twist this parable into something that is impossible to understand unless we first determine if those who received the Gospel with joy “were truly children of God before they walked away.” The parable is perfectly clear – some Christians will not persevere in the faith.

The seed sown on rocky ground is “he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy”. The seed sown on rocky ground are unlike the seed sown on the path."Hear then the parable of the sower. When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
Matt. 13:18-21Note the difference between the seed sown on the path and the seed sown in rocky ground. The seed sown on the path is a person that hears the word of God and don’t understand it. The seed sown on rocky ground is a person that UNDERSTANDS the Gospel and receives it with joy. If someone understands the Gospel, and receives it with joy, then that person is a Christian. But the “rocky path” Christian is a person that “endures for a while”. These “rocky path” Christians are the dogs that return to the vomit.For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
2Peter 2:20-21
Of what i am sure is that anyone, no matter how long he has strayed, may still return, as the Prodigal son, to the bear hug & kisses & tears of joy of the relieved Father.
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The Prodigal son repented of his sins before he reconciled with his Father. The Father tells the older son that his younger brother was dead : “It was fitting to make merry and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.(Luke 15:320”

Obviously the Father wasn’t saying that the prodigal son was physically dead and has been resurrected like Lazarus. The Father is saying that the younger son, was spiritually dead because he had committed deadly sin.

Do you accept that scriptures teach that Christians can become spiritually dead by committing mortal sins?

Soc4u, you have been avoiding answering my question. Do you believe in OSAS? Time to 'fess up.
 
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Matt16_18:
…
“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.”

2Peter 2:20-21

The Prodigal son repented of his sins before he reconciled with his Father. The Father tells the older son that his younger brother was dead : “It was fitting to make merry and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.(Luke 15:320”

Obviously the Father wasn’t saying that the prodigal son was physically dead and has been resurrected like Lazarus. The Father is saying that the younger son, was spiritually dead because he had committed deadly sin.

Do you accept that scriptures teach that Christians can become spiritually dead by committing mortal sins?

Soc4u, you have been avoiding answering my question. Do you believe in OSAS? Time to 'fess up.
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Matt16_18:
…
The question is not: Do good works cause us to earn God’s love? The question is: Can doing evil works bring about our eternal damnation?

Soc4u, it is time for you to tell the Catholics if you believe that a Christian could die unrepentant for doing evil works and bring eternal damnation upon himself. Do you believe in OSAS?
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You’re making sense, Matt. The idea that a person who is once a child of God would walk away from Him is new to me. There are other passages at which i’d need to take a second look, but i am willing to say that, apart from further evidence, i’d accept that what you say is true.

I also agree that repentance is a requirement to receive eternal life, for St. Peter said:

“Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out…” (Acts 3:19)

and St. Paul agrees:

" 'Then i asked, “Who are you Lord?” “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” the Lord replied. “…I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.” ‘So then…I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.’ " (Acts 26:15-20)

Hence, the passages tell me:

Repentance = Turning from darkness (i.e., from a life of sin).

Faith = Turning to light & God (i.e., putting complete trust in, & making a full commitment to, Christ Jesus).

You & i prove to others (& to ourselves?) that we have repented & put our trust in Christ by obeying Him (Acts 26:20; James 2:24).
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
Emmaus:

My guess is the Roman Catholic Catechism. Am i correct?

The language is a little archaic. Will you tell me what it says in your own words?
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Socrates,

It is the Council of Trent on Justification. Did it not answer your questions? The language is not that archaic. You are a bright guy and I am sure you understand it without me having to rephrase it. It addresses in great detail the exact specific questions you have been asking. And it the authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church. So you can say you accept it or reject it, but it would be disingenous to say you do not understand it, just to string the conversation along endlessly.

Your perplexion should be cleared up one way or another at this point.
 
I was hoping you would give me a specific passage of Scripture that i may look it up & read it in context.
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
The idea that a person who is once a child of God would walk away from Him is new to me.
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You have never met a Christian that has fallen away? I find that hard to believe. In any case, the scriptures have plenty to say about Chrisitans that do not endure to the end.And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matt. 24:10-13The prodigal son didn’t quit being a son when he walked away from his father. He became a son that was spiritually dead, and his father rejoiced when the son repented of his sins and came back to life.
You & i prove to others (& to ourselves?) that we have repented & put our trust in Christ by obeying Him (Acts 26:20; James 2:24).
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A one time act of repentance does not give us “eternal security”. What happens if a man sincerely repents of his sins, becomes a Christian, is on fire for a while - and then lets his love grow cold?
I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.
Rev. 3:15-16What else do the scriptures say about Christians that let their love grow cold? Peter says, “if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. “

Did you catch that? Peter says the backslid Christian is in a state worse than he was before he became a Christian. Can a fallen away Christian expect to see Heaven if he is a worse state than he was before he became a Christian? Absolutely not!

Do you believe in OSAS? It is time to give us a straight answer to this question.
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
I was hoping you would give me a specific passage of Scripture that i may look it up & read it in context.
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Socrates,

Here is your stringof pearls. All the citations referenced in the two part post from Trent on Justification.

Rom. 3:24; 5:1.
Heb. 11:6.
Rom. 11:6.
Matt. 10:22; 24:13.
Rom. 14:4.
Phil. 1:6, 2:13.
See 1 Cor. 10:12.
Phil. 2:12.
See 1 Pet. 1:3.
Rom. 8:12f.
See I Cor. 15:58.
Heb. 6:10.
Heb. 10:35.
Matt. 10:22.
Rom. 6:22.
See II Tim. 4:8.
John 15:1f.
Apoc. 14:13.
John 4:13f.
Rom. 10:3; II Cor. 3:5.
Matt. 10:42; Mark 9:40.
See II Cor. 4:17.
See I Cor. 1:31; II Cor. 10:17.
James 3:2
See I Cor. 4:3f.
Ibid., 4:5.
Matt. 16:27; Rom. 2:6; Apoc. 22:12.
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
What i’m still having difficulty believing (& i appreciate your patience & perseverance in trying to help me) is that the Scriptures teach that those good deeds somehow cause you & me to become good enough to receive eternal life.
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Practice makes perfect. The more you practice something the better you become.
 
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Matt16_18:
…Do you believe in OSAS? It is time to give us a straight answer to this question.
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I did answer the question.
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Socrates4Jesus:
…You’re making sense, Matt. …i am willing to say that, apart from further evidence, i’d accept that what you say is true.
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Emmaus:
Socrates,

Here is your stringof pearls. All the citations referenced in the two part post from Trent on Justification.

Rom. 3:24; 5:1.
Heb. 11:6.
Rom. 11:6.
Matt. 10:22; 24:13.
Rom. 14:4.
Phil. 1:6, 2:13.
See 1 Cor. 10:12.
Phil. 2:12.
See 1 Pet. 1:3.
Rom. 8:12f.
See I Cor. 15:58.
Heb. 6:10.
Heb. 10:35.
Matt. 10:22.
Rom. 6:22.
See II Tim. 4:8.
John 15:1f.
Apoc. 14:13.
John 4:13f.
Rom. 10:3; II Cor. 3:5.
Matt. 10:42; Mark 9:40.
See II Cor. 4:17.
See I Cor. 1:31; II Cor. 10:17.
James 3:2
See I Cor. 4:3f.
Ibid., 4:5.
Matt. 16:27; Rom. 2:6; Apoc. 22:12.
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Thank you, Emmaus!

I’ll check those out. Are there any in particular you would like to discuss, or do you want me to take some time out from the forum & do a private study between just me & the Holy Ghost?
 
Socrates4Jesus

Your answer isn’t clear.

Do you believe that the scriptures teach that a Christian that dies unrepentant for deadly sin can be damned to eternity in Hell?

Or do you believe that every Christian has a guaranteed place in Heaven no matter how they live their lives?
 
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