Perplexed Protestant

[Matt16_18]

Socrates4Jesus:

Matt:

You misunderstand me. What i wrote was that good works are essential to living the Christian life, but they are not a cause of salvation.

Have I ever said that we receive eternal life by earning it with good works? Eternal life is a free gift from God. We are saved by grace. What you need to acknowledge is that the wages of sin is DEATH, and that a Christian can earn his eternal damnation by committing deadly sin.For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

I must admit that even though i believe that we have the freedom accept or reject Christ, i cannot fathom how i would now turn away from Him after all He did & is doing for me. You may be correct that it is possible, but “there, but for the grace of God go i.”

You have committed the mortal sin of forsaking the brethren and leaving the Church that Jesus founded. That is a turning away from Jesus. The true church is both the vine and the branches attached to the vine.
I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.
John 15:1-10

This idea of being able to live a sinless life with God’s help, i hear, is similar to what Catholic Thomists teach.

Catholic Thomists? You know very well that Jesus taught that we are to be perfect:You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matt. 5:48

“If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Matt. 19:21

So tell us Soc, do the scriptures teach that a Christian can lose eternal life by committing deadly sin? Does Jesus tell us to be perfect? Who gets to decide who lived a perfect life? Do YOU get to set the standards of perfection?

 

[Philthy]

Well done Matt16_18…

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Matt16_18:

Catholic Thomists? You know very well that Jesus taught that we are to be perfect:You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matt. 5:48

“If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Matt. 19:21

So tell us Soc, do the scriptures teach that a Christian can lose eternal life by committing deadly sin? Does Jesus tell us to be perfect? Who gets to decide who lived a perfect life? Do YOU get to set the standards of perfection?

Matt:

Yeah, i heard on the Catholic Answers radio program that Thomists believe that a person may reach a state of sinless perfection on this side of eternity, but that this is a matter of debate within the Catholic church. I’m assuming that Thomists are those who hold to the teachings of Thomas Aquinas.

So Matt, are you saying you agree with the Thomists that a person may reach a state of spinelessness prior to death & resurrection?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Matt16_18:

There is no salvation outside the church:… the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk. 16:16; Jn. 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.

Lumen Gentium, 14

Matt:

Do you disagree with the decision of Vatican II that some Protestants may be saved from hell?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Philthy:

Socrates4Jesus = black

Philthy = blue

If you try to see things from my point of view, you may begin to empathize with my reluctance to accept the Roman Catholic way of salvation. Yes and no Soc. You’ve articulated a very subtle difference between RCC and yourself which amounts very little in the lives of believers. You have basically stated that your belief in Jesus saves you and that it is predicated upon first repenting of sin and living apart from sin. So far your still orthodox. Steve, you said i should trust that the good works God does in me will be rewarded with eternal life. But i see Jesus saying that i should trust in him alone to give me eternal life as an absolutely free gift.
How do verses like “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow me.” fit into this theology? They don’t really, because the Christian life is a struggle requiring perseverance. You try to separate the works which you will do from the trust in Christ that allows you to do them and that is where I think you are wrong. Remember, John 14-21 “Whoever has my commands and observes them is the one who loves me…and I will love him”? I think that loving Jesus is when “belief” becomes something more than “intellectual assent.” In addition to “trusting” Jesus for your eternal salvation do you trust him with every day of your life here on earth as well?
Who should i obey? God or men? BOTH!
Proverbs 3:5-6: Trust in the Lord with all your heart on your own intelligence rely not; in all your ways be mindful of him and he will make straight your paths.
1Peter 5:5 Likewise you younger members be subject to the presbyters…

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Good food for thought, Philthy. Thank you.

Yes i agree every true Christian will love Jesus by obeying Him, like He said:

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord’ and do not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46)

and

“By this all men will know you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:35)

and

“But I tell you, love your enemies…” (Matthew 5:44)

I’m trying to be open minded, but not empty minded. What i think you are all saying is that:

1. It is God’s grace alone that saves us. And i agree with this.

And i think you are saying that

1. God’s grace is received by us through our faith (i.e., trust in) Christ. I also concur with this.

Furthermore, i think you are saying that

1. God’s grace, which is received through our faith, produces in us the fruit of the Holy Ghost, which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness & self-control. And because He alone gives us the power (& possibly even the desire?) to do these good things, we may take no credit for them nor boast about them. This i also accept as truth.

And please let me know if i misunderstand the Roman Catholic teaching up to this point; but, as far as i comprehend, we are in complete agreement with these three premises.

What i’m still having difficulty believing (& i appreciate your patience & perseverance in trying to help me) is that the Scriptures teach that those good deeds somehow cause you & me to become good enough to receive eternal life.

It would help me to see convincing evidence from Scripture that the grace of God not only helps produce in us good works done in faith, but that the grace of God produces good works done in faith that are a cause of our receiving the gift of eternal life. It’s OK if you point out a passage of the Bible that you have already shown me but believe i have overlooked. I really want to give this Catholic idea of salvation a chance, but i need to be convinced it is true.

“Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (John 4:1)

I’m trying to test the spirit of what you say with a determination to hold fast to what is true.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates4Jesus:

Matt:

Yeah, i heard on the Catholic Answers radio program that Thomists believe that a person may reach a state of sinless perfection on this side of eternity, but that this is a matter of debate within the Catholic church. I’m assuming that Thomists are those who hold to the teachings of Thomas Aquinas.

So Matt, are you saying you agree with the Thomists that a person may reach a state of spinelessness prior to death & resurrection?

Matt:

I’m sorry, i meant to type:

“Are you saying you agree with the Thomists that a person may reach a state of sinlessness prior to death & resurrection?”

My spell checker suggested the wrong word. Or maybe i’m concerned that my trying to be meek will be misconstrued as being weak in intellect?

Freud would have had a ball with someone like me in his chair!

 

[Matt16_18]

Socrates4Jesus:

Matt:

Do you disagree with the decision of Vatican II that some Protestants may be saved from hell?

Lumen Gentium, which I quoted, IS a document of Vatican II.

Look again at what it says: “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.”

The key word here is “knowing”. If you are invincibly ignorant that the Catholic Church is necessary for your salvation, the possibility exists that you might be saved. But can you honestly stand before God and say that you were ignorant that Jesus founded the Catholic Church? I can’t make that judgement, and even you can’t make that judgement, because as children of a fallen race, we easily deceive ourselves and rationalize our sinfulness.The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?
Jer. 17: 9You are desperate to cling to a Protestant theology of cheap grace and easy believism that allows you to commit sin with the “assurance of salvation” all locked up neat and tidy in a binding legal contract with God. Why do you want to do this? Many will cry “Lord, Lord” at their judgement before the throne of God, but Jesus will tell the evildoers that are crying “Lord, Lord” to get lost.Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
Matt. 7:21-23

Jesus said that we are to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect. That is an awfully high standard of perfection! But if Jesus said that we are to be perfect, then it must be possible if we cooperate with the sufficient grace that God sends to the faithful.

Many Christians will be crying “Lord, Lord” on their day of judgement, but woe to the Christian that does not bear fruit!

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matt. 7:19

For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’
Matt. 25:29-30

How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb. 10:29-30

 

[Matt16_18]

Socrates4Jesus:

Matt:

Freud would have had a ball with someone like me in his chair!



Don’t worry about it, Catholics don’t think like Freud.

 

[Steve_M]

Matt16_18:

Jesus said that we are to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect. That is an awfully high standard of perfection! But if Jesus said that we are to be perfect, then it must be possible if we cooperate with the sufficient grace that God sends to the faithful.

Here are a couple more. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John all talk about this.

1 John 1:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. …

1 John 3:3 -6
And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

 

[Matt16_18]

Socrates4Jesus:

What i’m still having difficulty believing is that the Scriptures teach that those good deeds somehow cause you & me to become good enough to receive eternal life.

This is a straw man argument that you have created so that you can bash it around. Catholics know that the reason that we love is because God first loved us.We love, because he first loved us.
1John 4:19
The question is not: Do good works cause us to earn God’s love? The question is: Can doing evil works bring about our eternal damnation?

Soc4u, it is time for you to tell the Catholics if you believe that a Christian could die unrepentant for doing evil works and bring eternal damnation upon himself. Do you believe in OSAS?

 

[Philthy]

Soc4Jesus "And please let me know if i misunderstand the Roman Catholic teaching up to this point; but, as far as i comprehend, we are in complete agreement with these three premises.

What i’m still having difficulty believing (& i appreciate your patience & perseverance in trying to help me) is that the Scriptures teach that those good deeds somehow cause you & me to become good enough to receive eternal life.

It would help me to see convincing evidence from Scripture that the grace of God not only helps produce in us good works done in faith, but that the grace of God produces good works done in faith that are a cause of our receiving the gift of eternal life. "

Philthy Im on it Soc! Hold steady…

 

[Philthy]

Socrates4Jesus

What i’m still having difficulty believing is that the Scriptures teach that those good deeds somehow cause you & me to become good enough to receive eternal life.
Philthy

Again, be careful buddy. The good works don’t “somehow cause us to become good enough to recieve eternal life” - only God’s Grace allows that to happen by initiating the possibility of eternal life from an otherwise hopeless situation (we fell)… The **good works help allow us to remain in the state of Grace and keep open the possibility of eternal life should we persevere until death.

**Here’s an analogy:

You have a pot, a watering can, a water supply and some dirt and you want to grow a flower.

You are hopeless without a seed. Nothing you do works.

God comes along and gives us a seed which begins to grow. Thank you God!

He also tells us - I’ll provide the Son - you need to water the plant or it will die!
You don’t water the plant and it dies after a while.

Explanation:

The pot, can, water and dirt - everything we are - is us in our sinful state.
The desire for a flower is the desire for eternal life
The attempt to grow the flower without a seed is works without faith
The seed is God’s gift of Grace and without it there will be no “flower”
Jesus is the Sun - the metaphor was to good to pass up - also necessary
The statement by God is His Word - it tells us what we need to do

Watering the plant is the “works” part of eternal life - ignore them, and the plant dies. It grew for a while, but you let it die.

 

[Matt16_18]

Philthy:

You are hopeless without a seed. Nothing you do works …

The seed is God’s gift of Grace and without it there will be no “flower” …

You don’t water the plant and it dies after a while

And he told them many things in parables, saying: "A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground …

As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Matt. chapt. 13

Soc4u, do you understand the parable of the seed sown on rocky ground?

 

[jc_escobar]

Hi S4J,

It’s really very simple, it is not Faith and it is not works alone that save us, but the Grace we receive by God’s Mercy. God through his Love for us send His only Son Jesus Christ to die for our salvation, this accomplished for us the possibility of having our sins forgiven. However for this to actually happen we must REPENT and believe in the Gosspel. Now, repentance is a voluntary act which in itself woulod imply a work, then have faith. But the problem is that none of them on their own can attain salvation for us. It is only the Grace of God through our Lord Jesus Christ that we can get to heaven. It is also through that Grace that we are enabled to act in good works and to believe in Him who saved us. But the Grace of God is not imposed on anybody by simply accepting the Truth od our salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. We have to accept the Grace that is given us. For example, if we find ourselves in a wright or wrong choice situation, God will, by the Holy Spirit tell us the right choice, but it is to us to listen, get hold of that Grace and act on it according to this Grace. All this presuposes Faith in God and the help of the Holy Spirit which, as we read in Rom 12:3 “For by the grace given to me I bid every one among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith which God has assigned him.” comes by Grace to us.
In conclusion, it is both Faith with works, which together come to us by Grace are our means to get to our ultimate goal: Salvation and the Presence of God for ever and ever. So works don’t come from Faith and the latter doesn’t come from works but rather both come through Grace.
Salvation is a free gift to us from God which we must accept in order to get (works) believing we’ll attain it according to His promise (Faith).
Now, the measure of Grace we get is not given to us at once. This, not because God doesn’t want to give it to us, but because we are not able to take it. It rather comes in small measures through time until we are perfected by the same Grace and hence fit for Heaven (this, through the sacraments, prayer and fellwship with the Holy Spirit in life and being His Grace so great and perfect, through Purgatory after life may we not be able to take it all in this life).

I hope this helps…
Blessings,
J.C.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Steve M:

Here are a couple more. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John all talk about this.

1 John 1:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. …

1 John 3:3 -6
And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

Steve:

Please compare 1 John 3:3-6 with 1 John 1:8.

“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

I’m just curious what you think. Given this comparison, what do you think the words “No one who abides in him sins” mean?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Don’t worry about it, Catholics don’t think like Freud.

Yeah, i agree.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates4Jesus

What i’m still having difficulty believing is that the Scriptures teach that those good deeds somehow cause you & me to become good enough to receive eternal life.
Philthy

Again, be careful buddy. The good works don’t “somehow cause us to become good enough to recieve eternal life” - only God’s Grace allows that to happen by initiating the possibility of eternal life from an otherwise hopeless situation (we fell)… The **good works help allow us to remain in the state of Grace and keep open the possibility of eternal life should we persevere until death. **

Here’s an analogy:

You have a pot, a watering can, a water supply and some dirt and you want to grow a flower.

You are hopeless without a seed. Nothing you do works.

God comes along and gives us a seed which begins to grow.Thank you God!

He also tells us - I’ll provide the Son - you need to water the plant or it will die!
You don’t water the plant and it dies after a while.

Explanation:

The pot, can, water and dirt - everything we are - is us in our sinful state.
The desire for a flower is the desire for eternal life
The attempt to grow the flower without a seed is works without faith
The seed is God’s gift of Grace and without it there will be no “flower”
Jesus is the Sun - the metaphor was to good to pass up - also necessary
The statement by God is His Word - it tells us what we need to do

Watering the plant is the “works” part of eternal life - ignore them, and the plant dies. It grew for a while, but you let it die.

Interesting parable, Philthy.

I suppose a Protestant would say that we don’t have water or even fertile soil God may use. They’d say the Bible teaches that Jesus already grew the plant for us & holds it out to us as an absolutely free gift. That is, that He lived the perfect life you or i could never live & offers it to us as an absolutely free gift. Instead of a bucket of dirt in one hand & a watering can in the other, we hold out empty hands to receive the fully-grown & perfect flower of life (or tree of life, if you will).

So they have an old hymn: “Nothing in my hand i bring; only to Thy cross i cling.”

A Wesleyan (or perhaps an Evangelical) may say we need to take care to keep the plant safe in our possession or we may lose it to the thief (i.e., the devil) or let it fall out a window & be dashed to pieces (i.e., turn back to a life devoted to sin & away from a life of faith in Him). A Calvinist (or perhaps a Baptist) might say God is able to keep the thief at bay & will not even allow us to push the plant out a window even if we desire, in a moment of insanity, to do so.

But your parable does help me begin to see, by way of analogy, what you believe about good works. Thank you! What would help me decide whether your parable is accurate is if you find passages of the New Testament that support it.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

And he told them many things in parables, saying: "A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground …

As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Matt. chapt. 13

Soc4u, do you understand the parable of the seed sown on rocky ground?
[/quote]

Sure,

I used to think Christ was speaking of those who said they had faith in Him but were just deceiving others (& perhaps themselves). By way of example, you may know some folks who attend Mass (perhaps just on Christmas eve & Easter) who live like the devil the rest of the year.

Such people may think that they are not hell-bent; but you might have warned some of them that merely going to Mass doesn’t make you a Catholic any more than walking into a barn makes you a cow.

However, after my recent conversation via e-mail with a Catholic, i see the possibility that our Lord was speaking of those who at one time truly did trust in & obey Him, but later walked away from Him. It is not as though He had failed them, rather, they failed to stay with Him. Divorce is somewhat symbolic of this, i suppose, which may be one reason why God states in the Old Testament, “I hate divorce.” God wants all of us to stick close to Him, but some choose to walk away.

Whether they were truly children of God before they walked away, i’m not sure. Of what i am sure is that anyone, no matter how long he has strayed, may still return, as the Prodigal son, to the bear hug & kisses & tears of joy of the relieved Father.

 

[Emmaus]

Socrates4Jesus:

But your parable does help me begin to see, by way of analogy, what you believe about good works. Thank you! What would help me decide whether your parable is accurate is if you find passages of the New Testament that support it.

We are the pots " vessels of clay" and the soil (see the meaning of the root word for man or human as in humus).

Luke 8:15
"But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

2 Cor 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;

1 Cor 3:9
For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.