Perseverance of the Saints

[spoiltvictorian]

OK.

I have seen quotes from Calvinists that seem to contradict this confession.

They state that everything that happens is God’s will.

I have too. The best of them hold to a paradox that we have free will and everything is also predestined.

But most Reformed, like Frontline here, think that the free will Adam used to fall away from God isn’t available to a Christian to fall away from God.

 

[cfrancis]

If you “fully acknowledge 1John 5:13” then how do you claim that a person who is truly born again, cannot know for sure that he has eternal life?

Because, as your position holds, the only way to know if one is a true believer is to cross the finish line, to persevere to the end.
I’m certain you read the rest of the post, where we see all we need to believe re: Jesus and justificaiton. He’s the One I believe, not Calvin, not you!

 

[Frontline]

Because, as your position holds, the only way to know if one is a true believer is to cross the finish line, to persevere to the end.

Umm . . . sorry.

That is only half of what my position holds.

I explained that a saved person can actually know if he is saved - for the Spirit bears witness with his spirit. And this is why I told you that “Yes, I am saved.” However - this in no way means that another person can always know with certainty that I am truly saved. But these are two separate points - that you continue to blend and blur together as if they are the same thing. They are not.

I have tried to explain that - but you will not hear me.

That does not make for a very fruitful discussion.

How would you like for me to tell you what your position holds, even when I am wrong. How would you like it if you tried to correct me and help me understand what your position truly holds - and I kept ignoring you, and pretending like I know better what your Fatih teaches. That would be foolish would it not?

So why do you pretend that you know what my position holds - when the fact is - you do not? I am trying to help you understand what my position holds - and yet you will not hear me.

You are not Reformed, and I am - so you should leave it to me to tell you what we hold to and what we do not hold to. This way you will not be arguing against a straw man that you have simply invented, and can then deal with my position with integrity.

Please consider this: and I will respectfully do the same for you - thanks!

 

[cfrancis]

Umm . . . sorry.

That is not what my position holds.

I have tried to explain that - but you will not hear me.

That does not make for a very fruitful discussion.

How would you like for me to tell you what your position holds, even when I am wrong. How would you like it if you tried to correct me and help me understand what your position truly holds - and I kept ignoring you, and pretending like I know better what your Fatih teaches. That would be foolish would it not?

So why do you pretend that you know what my position holds - when the fact is - you do not? I am trying to help you understand what my position holds - and yet you will not hear me.

You are not Reformed, and I am - so you should leave it to me to tell you what we hold to and what we do not hold to. This way you will not be arguing against a straw man that you have simply invented, and can then deal with my position with integrity.

Please consider this: and I will respectfully do the same for you - thanks!

OK, maybe I mis-read something in your posts.
You believe only the true believer will persevere to the end, right?

 

[Frontline]

OK, maybe I mis-read something in your posts. You believe only the true believer will persevere to the end, right?

The OBJECTIVE reality is that only those who are truly born again will persevere unto the end.

The SUBJECTIVE has two realities:

1. The one who is saved can know with certainty that he is saved, and can have assurance that he will endure unto the end.
2. A man cannot know with certainty whether another person is saved, and therefore he cannot have full assurance that another person will certainly endure unto the end.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

.

I explained that a saved person can actually know if he is saved - for the Spirit bears witness with his spirit. And this is why I told you that “Yes, I am saved.” However - this in no way means that another person can always know with certainty that I am truly saved. But these are two separate points - that you continue to blend and blur together as if they are the same thing. They are not.
:

Paul didn’t make such a bold claim.

In fact, he said the opposite.

 

[Frontline]

Paul didn’t make such a bold claim.

In fact, he said the opposite.

Actually, the apostle Paul was certain of his salvation, and taught that the Lord will rescue him from every evil deed and bring him safely into his heavenly kingdom:

‘The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safety into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever,Amen.’ (2 TImothy 4:18)

This is not a hypothetical proposition nor is it a conditional truth- but a sure declaration of what God will do. This is explicit.

 

[cfrancis]

The OBJECTIVE reality is that only those who are truly born again will persevere unto the end.

The SUBJECTIVE has two realities:

1. The one who is saved can know with certainty that he is saved, and can have assurance that he will endure unto the end.
2. A man cannot know with certainty whether another person is saved, and therefore he cannot have full assurance that another person will certainly endure unto the end.

1. If this is Scriptural truth, why are what you call “hypothetical” conditions in Scripture (such as Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. )?
   If the truth is once you are saved you know it and have attained heaven, statements such as Rom 11:22 become superfluous.
   In fact, every exhortation to persevere to the end, through suffering, is rendered null and void; we need no exhortation, as we’re already saved and have attained heaven. In fact, we need do nothing, except wait for our death to come.
2. It seems that those you point out as not being truly saved because they fell away, up to the point they fell away, would answer they were saved just like you (I’m certain you’ve known people like this in your congregation). If their knowledge of their salvation was not perfect, how do you know your is?

 

[cfrancis]

Actually, the apostle Paul was certain of his salvation, and taught that the Lord will rescue him from every evil deed and bring him safely into his heavenly kingdom:

‘The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safety into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever,Amen.’ (2 TImothy 4:18)

This is not a hypothetical proposition nor is it a conditional truth- but a sure declaration of what God will do. This is explicit.

Based on the Scripture Chesterton provided:
Phil 3
10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus
Clearly Paul knew he had not attained heaven, been saved as Frontline describes it.
Frontline, is it your position that Paul was truly saved somewhere after writing Phil and before writing 2 Tim?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Actually, the apostle Paul was certain of his salvation, and taught that the Lord will rescue him from every evil deed and bring him safely into his heavenly kingdom:

‘The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safety into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever,Amen.’ (2 TImothy 4:18)

This is not a hypothetical proposition nor is it a conditional truth- but a sure declaration of what God will do. This is explicit.

That is his hope, but he recognizes that he has not yet achieved salvation:

Phil 3

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,

1 Tim 6
11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

2 Timothy 2
5Similarly, if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not receive the victor’s crown unless he competes according to the rules. 6The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops. 7Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this.

 

[cfrancis]

Just a note on 2 Tim 4:18. In v16, Paul says:
16 At my first defense no one supported me, but all deserted me; may it not be counted against them.
The ones who would have supported him were Christians. Can we say they were true Christians and thus, by Frontline’s standard, saved and have attained heaven?

If “YES” then what could “be counted against them?”
If “NO”, then it doesn’t matter if anything is “counted against them” as they were never going to be saved anyway.

Also, in Ezekiel 3:
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
21 “However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself.” …
27"But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you will say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD ’ He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.
Here we have the righteous man losing his righteousness and dying in sin.
Also, we have God showing the free will of His people to either hear or not hear Him.

In Ez 18:
24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

Finally, in Ex 33:
12 "And you, son of man, say to your fellow citizens, ‘The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.’
13 "When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.
14 "But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness,
15 if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

 

[nbtb1348]

That is his hope, but he recognizes that he has not yet achieved salvation:

Phil 3

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,

1 Tim 6
11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

2 Timothy 2
5Similarly, if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not receive the victor’s crown unless he competes according to the rules. 6The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops. 7Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this.

You must make the distinction between his eternal destiny as a child of God who was “elect before the foundation of the world”, for whom “There is therefor now no condemnation”, “being confident of ths very thing, that He who began a good work in [him] will complete it until the Day of Christ Jesus”…and the salvation that is the sanctifying process whereby Paul’s daily living looks more and more like the very life of Christ. THAT is the thing he strives for and competes for, NOT his standing and sonship berfore God. That was settled shortly after he met Christ on the Damascus road.

This is why Paul says in Philippians 1:21,22 “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;”
He says it and all those other things because his destiny is sealed. What isn’t automatic is how well he will run the race and compete, and thus whether he could be disqualified from the incredible responsibility and priviege God gave him as the apostle to the Gentiles!

 

[nbtb1348]

cfrancis–

I guess I didn’t communicate very well. I said that when Paul asks these rhetorical questions and then speaks of things present and things to come…life and death…my dear friend, those are the periods of time where you will be greatly tempted by the enemy and could fall, sin, etc. That’s when it happens! And so Paul is saying nothing in all of that stuff will EVER separate us from God’s love–Not even death after all that! Let it say what it says and it will set you free. If you think threats will keep you on the straight and narrow, you missed the Old Testament!

And really!.. Just the question "Who will bring a charge against God’s elect?" ought to be enough for you to see that in this beautiful passage Paul is celebrating the fact that no one will ever again bring a charge against God’s elect! (News flash–It is why Paul says "There is therefor now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus")

Lastly, since when does Christ’s intercession for us imply that we could lose our salvation??? He has a lot He is praying for us about, but this issue of our eternal place as members of His body isn’t one of them!!

 

[sixofseven]

Hi,
Long time reader, first time poster (on this thread).
I have been following this thread with interest and firstly I will absolutely admit that I perhaps do not know nearly enough to engage in the debate that is going on, but I wanted to raise a couple of things and guage your thoughts:

Genesis 2:16–And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat. - When it came to the Tree of Life, God said not to eat the fruit, but man did eat the fruit, he chose to eat the fruit, after all the blessings God has bestowed.

Rescue me, O Lord, from evil men; preserve me from violent men, who devise evil things in hearts." Psalms 140:1-2 - we need God’s help, always.

“Go your way. From now on sin no more.” John 8:11 - we have the choice to sin but are advised not to - Free Will

"And when Jesus arrived at the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” Luke 23:40 - we are always at the mercy of sin, it is in our nature due to The Fall, just as we can choose to sin, we can choose not to sin - Free Will

Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 "in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 "But **if your heart turns away **so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 "I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong [your] days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live. - here we are advise to CHOOSE life, is that not free will?

John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. The ‘If’ suggests that there is occasion not to abide in him, and that we have a choice whether to abide in him or not.

Psalms 149:4
For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation. - Do you think God will crown those who proclaim, and some quite loudly, they have already received salvation?

I’m no angel, I have fallen many times and continue to do so. I wouldn’t dare proclaim or presume to ‘know’ the decisions of God, that I been saved. Only God knows what is in my heart, what is done in secret, the number of my days and I will take what I am given on the Day of Judgement.

I pray that I will not sin, but I always have a choice. I HOPE that I will be saved and I believe that the more I pray, the more I visit Jesus in the Eucharist, the more that I confess and repent, the more that I enlist the help of my friends (on Earth, in Purgatory and in Heaven) the occasion to fall in to sin will lessen, but the free will remains.

 

[nbtb1348]

Hi,
Long time reader, first time poster (on this thread).
I have been following this thread with interest and firstly I will absolutely admit that I perhaps do not know nearly enough to engage in the debate that is going on, but I wanted to raise a couple of things and guage your thoughts:

Genesis 2:16–And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat. - When it came to the Tree of Life, God said not to eat the fruit, but man did eat the fruit, he chose to eat the fruit, after all the blessings God has bestowed.

Rescue me, O Lord, from evil men; preserve me from violent men, who devise evil things in hearts." Psalms 140:1-2 - we need God’s help, always.

“Go your way. From now on sin no more.” John 8:11 - we have the choice to sin but are advised not to - Free Will

"And when Jesus arrived at the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” Luke 23:40 - we are always at the mercy of sin, it is in our nature due to The Fall, just as we can choose to sin, we can choose not to sin - Free Will

Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 "in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 "But **if your heart turns away **so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 "I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong [your] days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live. - here we are advise to CHOOSE life, is that not free will?

John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. The ‘If’ suggests that there is occasion not to abide in him, and that we have a choice whether to abide in him or not.

Psalms 149:4
For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation. - Do you think God will crown those who proclaim, and some quite loudly, they have already received salvation?

I’m no angel, I have fallen many times and continue to do so. I wouldn’t dare proclaim or presume to ‘know’ the decisions of God, that I been saved. Only God knows what is in my heart, what is done in secret, the number of my days and I will take what I am given on the Day of Judgement.

I pray that I will not sin, but I always have a choice. I HOPE that I will be saved and I believe that the more I pray, the more I visit Jesus in the Eucharist, the more that I confess and repent, the more that I enlist the help of my friends (on Earth, in Purgatory and in Heaven) the occasion to fall in to sin will lessen, but the free will remains.

It has been said by a wise Calvanist who perhaps wished to quell some fruitless wrangling, that a man walks under a giant arch as he enters heaven, and he sees on the front, high above, “Whosoever will may come”, and then after he enters he looks up behind him, and on the other side of that beautiful arch it reads, “Chosen before the foundation of the world!”

 

[sixofseven]

It has been said by a wise Calvanist who perhaps wished to quell some fruitless wrangling, that a man walks under a giant arch as he enters heaven, and he sees on the front, high above, “Whosoever will may come”, and then after he enters he looks up behind him, and on the other side of that beautiful arch it reads, “Chosen before the foundation of the world!”

Whosoever will MAY come - it is possible to come, there is the opportunity to come, but therein also lies that there are conditions.

Chosen before the foundation of the world - hard to grasp and very humbling but we must also choose Him.

 

[sixofseven]

The OBJECTIVE reality is that only those who are truly born again will persevere unto the end.

The SUBJECTIVE has two realities:

1. The one who is saved can know with certainty that he is saved, and can have assurance that he will endure unto the end.
2. A man cannot know with certainty whether another person is saved, and therefore he cannot have full assurance that another person will certainly endure unto the end.

I do not know with certainty that you are saved and therefore do not have full assurance that you will certainly endure unto the end.

So I will pray for you that you do.

 

[Chancellare]

The OBJECTIVE reality is that only those who are truly born again will persevere unto the end.

The SUBJECTIVE has two realities:

1. The one who is saved can know with certainty that he is saved, and can have assurance that he will endure unto the end.
2. A man cannot know with certainty whether another person is saved, and therefore he cannot have full assurance that another person will certainly endure unto the end.

I must have missed it big time, but which part (again) of Scripture says the ‘endurance’ part of your ‘reality’?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I must have missed it big time, but which part (again) of Scripture says the ‘endurance’ part of your ‘reality’?

Here are a few relevant passages:

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father.”

“This son of mine was dead but is now alive; he was lost but now is found” (Luke 15:24).

 

[Chancellare]

Here are a few relevant passages:

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father.”

“This son of mine was dead but is now alive; he was lost but now is found” (Luke 15:24).

And where in Scriptures is the endurance become exclusive to ‘born again’?