Perseverance of the Saints

[nbtb1348]

St. Augustine deals with all these pot-shots. IMWFO he is probably better equipped than any of us to form doctrine on the matter. Many objections to Reformed doctrine are also objections to his. Which is ironic, when some would have people believe that the Fathers are the last word in Biblical interpretation.​

BTW, that quotation of Hebrews 10.29 is a fatal objection only on Pelagian presuppositions. That would imply a completely unreal separation between the activity of men, & the activity of God’s grace.

As for those two verses out of Matthew 7, that quotation is convincing only if one ignores the inter-relation between doctrines. If we look carefully enough, we will find verses to deny that God exists, to deny that Christ is God, to deny Christ’s sinlessness, & a thousand other doctrines. For that is where quoting verses without theology leads.

As for Matt. 10.22 & 24.13 - they are no objection at all.

I’m wondering how God could have chosen us in eternity past, and then lose some of us after we become part of his family and in fact part of Christ’s body. God seems a whole lot bigger than that to me.

 

[nbtb1348]

St. Augustine deals with all these pot-shots. IMWFO he is probably better equipped than any of us to form doctrine on the matter. Many objections to Reformed doctrine are also objections to his. Which is ironic, when some would have people believe that the Fathers are the last word in Biblical interpretation.​

BTW, that quotation of Hebrews 10.29 is a fatal objection only on Pelagian presuppositions. That would imply a completely unreal separation between the activity of men, & the activity of God’s grace.

As for those two verses out of Matthew 7, that quotation is convincing only if one ignores the inter-relation between doctrines. If we look carefully enough, we will find verses to deny that God exists, to deny that Christ is God, to deny Christ’s sinlessness, & a thousand other doctrines. For that is where quoting verses without theology leads.

As for Matt. 10.22 & 24.13 - they are no objection at all.

When you understand how many things happened to the believer the moment he repented and believeed on the Lord Jesus Christ (at least thirty things happened immediately), you get a better appreciation for how consistent the doctrine is with all that God is doing as He prepares the Bride to reign with Him!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

It’s even in the 1689 Confession, Chapter 9. vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc09.html That’s about as T.U.L.I.P. as it gets.

I didn’t see the answers to my questions there.

Am I just too dense?

Here they are again:

Do you believe that God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey?

Do you believe that God wants us to sin?

Do you believe that God wanted the Jews to make a golden calf to worship?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

St. Augustine deals with all these pot-shots. IMWFO he is probably better equipped than any of us to form doctrine on the matter. Many objections to Reformed doctrine are also objections to his. Which is ironic, when some would have people believe that the Fathers are the last word in Biblical interpretation.​

Have you read St. Augustine’s treatise on free will? Please do.

BTW, that quotation of Hebrews 10.29 is a fatal objection only on Pelagian presuppositions. That would imply a completely unreal separation between the activity of men, & the activity of God’s grace.

It does no such thing. It merely states that a man who has been sanctified by God’s grace can in fact turn away from God and be lost. It has nothing to do with the necessity of God’s grace for salvation.

As for those two verses out of Matthew 7, that quotation is convincing only if one ignores the inter-relation between doctrines. If we look carefully enough, we will find verses to deny that God exists, to deny that Christ is God, to deny Christ’s sinlessness, & a thousand other doctrines. For that is where quoting verses without theology leads.

As for Matt. 10.22 & 24.13 - they are no objection at all.

I think you mean quoting verses that explicitly contradict YOUR theology.

These verses fit perfectly well with Catholic theology.

 

[nbtb1348]

I didn’t see the answers to my questions there.

Am I just too dense?

Here they are again:

Do you believe that God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey?

Do you believe that God wants us to sin?

Do you believe that God wanted the Jews to make a golden calf to worship?

God says His ways are far, far beyond ours. We may struggle with understanding how He can affirm all that He does, but the adventure is in discovering the rich truths that are there while allowing Scripture to say what it says.

We may balk at a passage like this in Romans 9…

*And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), *it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

…but we dare not altar it. Let God say what He will, and until we can reconcile all the relevant passages, we best keep studying!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

God says His ways are far, far beyond ours. We may struggle with understanding how He can affirm all that He does, but the adventure is in discovering the rich truths that are there while allowing Scripture to say what it says.

We may balk at a passage like this in Romans 9…

*And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), *it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

…but we dare not altar it. Let God say what He will, and until we can reconcile all the relevant passages, we best keep studying!

No one denies that God is sovereign.

That’s not the issue.

The question is, does God want us to freely choose to love him?

Paul is talking about life on earth, not salvation.

We all have a different lot in life which is determined by God. That is our starting point.

This has nothing to do with our responsibility to seek, love, and follow God by responding to his grace.

 

[nbtb1348]

No one denies that God is sovereign.

That’s not the issue.

The question is, does God want us to freely choose to love him?

Paul is talking about life on earth, not salvation.

We all have a different lot in life which is determined by God. That is our starting point.

This has nothing to do with our responsibility to seek, love, and follow God by responding to his grace.

And what I am saying is that we must let Scripture say ALL that it says, even if we are uncomfortable with where it takes us. Scripture teaches both that God has “chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world” AND that he holds us personally responsible for the choice we make. From the human viewpoint, a man just needs to be concerned with His promise that “whosoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved,” while God enjoys the fact that His sovereign grace is what wakes us up out of our sin and gives us the faith and the desire to repent and believe.

 

[cfrancis]

cfrancis - you have not dealt properly with the Scriptures. You accuse me of twisting Scripture, but the fact is, that is what you are doing. Your free will doctrine cannot be found in the Scriptures, whether before or after conversion. Free will is a myth of Paganism. I would like to ask you to demonstrate that men have the capacity to “cooperate with grace” without grace.

I claim you are twisting Scripture, you claim I do the same. There you have it.
I claim free will in Scriptural; you claim it isn’t.
When exactly do you claim free will was inserted into Christian thought?
I find Irenaeus speaking of it at in the last half of the 2nd century, in Against Heresies, Book IV, Ch XXXVII,Men are possessed of free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. It is not true, therefore, that some are by nature good, and others bad.

Also, show me where God has ever attempted to bring about a decisive event and because of someone’s free will, His purposes were thwarted.

You are, probably unintentionally, confusing God’s omniscience with our ability to choose. Just because God knows the outcome does not negate our free will to choose.
Your position places God’s creatures into the position of being forced to sin and fall away by God Himself.

Also, you still have not demonstrated from the Scriptures that a born-again child of God has ever -OR- can ever turn from the gospel and reject Christ to a loss of their salvation. All you have given me is a bunch of passages that lay out for us true but hypothetical propositions - all of which I affirm. Other than that, you have misunderstood the obvious manifestative principle, and turned the gospel into a salvation by human works.

How can anyone ever meet your standard? Every example will be met with “he/she was never really saved.” Of course, you can’t prove that, but you’ll shout it until you’re hoarse.

Jesus said: “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.” (John 13:34) You might interpret this passage also in the light of your works-based theology as Jesus teaching that because Jesus commands us to love one another, then we must love one another *in order to become *his disciples. But this is clearly the manifestative principle, as he makes clear in the very next line: “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (v.35).

Interesting. There are many non-Christians who love others better than Christians; does that make the non-Christians His disciples? Does that make the Christians not His disciples?
I believe you have a deficient understanding of love. True love is both self-giving and voluntary. The “love” of which you speak is one in which we cannot choose; we are forced to love, which, by definition, is not love.

In other words - loving one another is the proof that you are truly a disciple of Jesus, and not the grounds of your discipleship. So it is with the perseverance of the saints. Enduring unto the end is the proof of having truly been born again. How you deny this is beyond me. You have not given me a single example from Scripture - but yet continue to make naked assertions.

No one doubts the perseverance to the end proves one is a believer. The key is, no one knows who will and will not persevere to the end. If you persevere for 90% of the time, you will say you are saved; the next day, when you fail to persevere, you will say you were never saved. Your position is self-defeating.

Also - I do not restrict salvation to a past tense aspect; as I have also acknowledged the future aspect as well. The sad fact is that you have broken the chain of redemption, and have inserted into God’s perfect work - the possibility of failure. Show me how you can support this claim from Romans 8:30 - I would love to see how you deal with this text.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Not a problem for the Catholics. Of course, those who are glorified in heaven are those He justified and He knew they’d be there from the foundations of the earth.
What this passage does not say is those who are glorified knew they had attained heaven while on earth.
Skipping to the end of the passage, we see Paul stating:
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Conspicuously absent from Paul’s list are those things we can do, such as sin. Note all he lists are external to us; clearly he left out our sins, our choices, because he knows we have free will.

 

[nbtb1348]

I claim you are twisting Scripture, you claim I do the same. There you have it.
I claim free will in Scriptural; you claim it isn’t.
When exactly do you claim free will was inserted into Christian thought?
I find Irenaeus speaking of it at in the last half of the 2nd century, in Against Heresies, Book IV, Ch XXXVII,Men are possessed of free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. It is not true, therefore, that some are by nature good, and others bad.
You are, probably unintentionally, confusing God’s omniscience with our ability to choose. Just because God knows the outcome does not negate our free will to choose.
Your position places God’s creatures into the position of being forced to sin and fall away by God Himself.
How can anyone ever meet your standard? Every example will be met with “he/she was never really saved.” Of course, you can’t prove that, but you’ll shout it until you’re hoarse.
Interesting. There are many non-Christians who love others better than Christians; does that make the non-Christians His disciples? Does that make the Christians not His disciples?
I believe you have a deficient understanding of love. True love is both self-giving and voluntary. The “love” of which you speak is one in which we cannot choose; we are forced to love, which, by definition, is not love.
No one doubts the perseverance to the end proves one is a believer. The key is, no one knows who will and will not persevere to the end. If you persevere for 90% of the time, you will say you are saved; the next day, when you fail to persevere, you will say you were never saved. Your position is self-defeating.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Not a problem for the Catholics. Of course, those who are glorified in heaven are those He justified and He knew they’d be there from the foundations of the earth.
What this passage does not say is those who are glorified knew they had attained heaven while on earth.
Skipping to the end of the passage, we see Paul stating:
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Conspicuously absent from Paul’s list are those things we can do, such as sin. Note all he lists are external to us; clearly he left out our sins, our choices, because he knows we have free will.

No, I think when Paul makes that grand sweep in those verses of chapter 8, it is obvious he is saying God’s elect will NEVER be separated from His love. It is clearly the sense of the passage, both literally and in the ‘spirit’ of it. And when you say, cfrancis, “Conspicuously absent from Paul’s list are those things we can do, such as sin. Note all he lists are external to us; clearly he left out our sins, our choices, because he knows we have free will,” you again miss the obvious: The “life…” and “things present…” and “things to come…” contain every single moment where a child of God WILL, in fact, stumble, fall, and maybe even sin like David did. But, my friend, IF you are a child of the God of grace, you are already “seated in the heavenlies” with Christ now, because you were chosen for that in eternity past. And I, with Paul, am “confident of this very thing: that He who has begun a good work in you WILL complete it unto the day of Christ Jesus!”

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

And what I am saying is that we must let Scripture say ALL that it says, even if we are uncomfortable with where it takes us. Scripture teaches both that God has “chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world” AND that he holds us personally responsible for the choice we make. From the human viewpoint, a man just needs to be concerned with His promise that “whosoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved,” while God enjoys the fact that His sovereign grace is what wakes us up out of our sin and gives us the faith and the desire to repent and believe.

I agree.

God is not constrained by time. We are.

Without grace we cannot be saved.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

CHESTERTONRULES:

Gottle of Geer:

St. Augustine deals with all these pot-shots. IMWFO he is probably better equipped than any of us to form doctrine on the matter. Many objections to Reformed doctrine are also objections to his. Which is ironic, when some would have people believe that the Fathers are the last word in Biblical interpretation.​

Have you read St. Augustine’s treatise on free will? Please do.

TY for the recommendation. In the same spirit, maybe I can recommend to your attention the “Eternal Predestination of God” of Master Calvin himself ​

CHESTERTONRULES:

Gottle of Geer:

BTW, that quotation of Hebrews 10.29 is a fatal objection only on Pelagian presuppositions. That would imply a completely unreal separation between the activity of men, & the activity of God’s grace.

It does no such thing. It merely states that a man who has been sanctified by God’s grace can in fact turn away from God and be lost. It has nothing to do with the necessity of God’s grace for salvation.

In the context in which you’ve quoted it - that is, as an argument against the Calvinist position - it does. If we made our reasons clear rather than expecting the Bible to speak for them, misunderstandings such as this might not occur so often. Since Calvinists do not deny the necessity of God’s grace for salvation, & since it does not in any way damage the Calvinist position, why quote that passage against their position ?​

CHESTERTONRULES:

Gottle of Geer:

As for those two verses out of Matthew 7, that quotation is convincing only if one ignores the inter-relation between doctrines. If we look carefully enough, we will find verses to deny that God exists, to deny that Christ is God, to deny Christ’s sinlessness, & a thousand other doctrines. For that is where quoting verses without theology leads.

As for Matt. 10.22 & 24.13 - they are no objection at all.

I think you mean quoting verses that explicitly contradict YOUR theology.
These verses fit perfectly well with Catholic theology

Yes, they do. But that is beside the point. Which is, that they do not damage the Calvinist position in the slightest: so why quote them against it, as though they did ? Not only do they fit Catholic theology - they also fit Calvinist theology.​

BTW, I’m RC, as truly so as you I’m RC, anyway; in case you’re not.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I’m wondering how God could have chosen us in eternity past, and then lose some of us after we become part of his family and in fact part of Christ’s body. God seems a whole lot bigger than that to me.

I don’t understand, sorry ​

 

[Frontline]

No, I think when Paul makes that grand sweep in those verses of chapter 8, it is obvious he is saying God’s elect will NEVER be separated from His love. It is clearly the sense of the passage, both literally and in the ‘spirit’ of it. And when you say, cfrancis, “Conspicuously absent from Paul’s list are those things we can do, such as sin. Note all he lists are external to us; clearly he left out our sins, our choices, because he knows we have free will,” you again miss the obvious: The “life…” and “things present…” and “things to come…” contain every single moment where a child of God WILL, in fact, stumble, fall, and maybe even sin like David did. But, my friend, IF you are a child of the God of grace, you are already “seated in the heavenlies” with Christ now, because you were chosen for that in eternity past. And I, with Paul, am “confident of this very thing: that He who has begun a good work in you WILL complete it unto the day of Christ Jesus!”

Thank you - you saved me a lot of typing. I was going to give a full exposition of that passage - but I think you made it very clear. Also - we should mention to our Catholic friends that 1 John 5:13 explicitly states: “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; so that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

It is more than clear that if a person is truly saved, he will not fall away - but let me lay it out again for the sake of all who are reading this thread:

The Bible speaks of being “preserved” - not by our own works or efforts - but by Jesus Christ, his work and his ongoing intercession - (Jude 1:1). The Bible speaks about being “kept” by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:5) - not kept by the power of our faith. The Bible speaks about God giving persons to Christ, and him not losing a single one because it is according to the Father’s will that “none of them be lost” (John 6:37-40).

The Bible explicitly teaches that God will fininsh what He started for *‘the Lord will fulfill his purpose for me; your steadfast love, O LORD, endures forever. Do not forsake the work of your hands.’ *(Psalm 138:8) *‘And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.’ *(Philippians 1:6).

The Bible teaches that God’s work is indestructable: "I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him." (Ecclesiastes 3:14) In light of this passage, the only question we should have to ask our Catholic friends is whether salvation is something that God does, or something we do.

The Bible teaches that God will carry us to the very end and save us: ‘even to your old age I am he, and to gray hairs I will carry you. I have made, and I will bear; I will carry and will save.’ (Isaiah 46:4)

The Bible teaches that the promise of the New Covenant is ‘a new heart’ that will cause us to ‘never turn away’: ‘I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, so that they shall not turn from me.’ (Jeremiah 32:40)

The Bible teaches that the calling of God is irreversable: ‘For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.’ (Romans 11:29)

The apostle Paul was certain of his salvation, and taught that the Lord will rescue him from every evil deed and bring him safely into his heavenly kingdom:* ‘The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safety into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever,Amen.’* (2 TImothy 4:18)

The Bible explicitly teaches that God is faithful to sanctify us completely, and preserve our soul and body blameless unto the coming of Jesus Christ: ‘And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.’ (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24)

All the hypothetical propositions in the Bible cannot dethrone these towering passages of explicit assurance. So far, I have seen very little exegetical work on any relevant passages, but instead - our Catholic friends have rabbit trailed into other doctrines such as free will and predestination. I am sorry - but the last time I checked - nobody has ever proven this free will doctrine from the Scriptures.

But hey - thanks for your contribution!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

In the context in which you’ve quoted it - that is, as an argument against the Calvinist position - it does. If we made our reasons clear rather than expecting the Bible to speak for them, misunderstandings such as this might not occur so often. Since Calvinists do not deny the necessity of God’s grace for salvation, & since it does not in any way damage the Calvinist position, why quote that passage against their position ?​

I quoted it because it clearly refutes to dogma of Perseverence of the Saints.

Yes, they do. But that is beside the point. Which is, that they do not damage the Calvinist position in the slightest: so why quote them against it, as though they did ? Not only do they fit Catholic theology - they also fit Calvinist theology.​

I believe that they directly contradict the Calvinist position.

If our endurance is required for salvation, then perseverence of the Saints is not assured.

If some will be cut from the vine, then they must first have been attached to the vine.

 

[spoiltvictorian]

I didn’t see the answers to my questions there.

Am I just too dense?

Here they are again:

Do you believe that God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey?

Do you believe that God wants us to sin?

Do you believe that God wanted the Jews to make a golden calf to worship?

Sorry for the confusion, Chesterton. I was saying with that link to the 1689 that even the great Reformed confession of faith admits we have free will to sin.

 

[cfrancis]

No, I think when Paul makes that grand sweep in those verses of chapter 8, it is obvious he is saying God’s elect will NEVER be separated from His love. It is clearly the sense of the passage, both literally and in the ‘spirit’ of it. And when you say, cfrancis, “Conspicuously absent from Paul’s list are those things we can do, such as sin. Note all he lists are external to us; clearly he left out our sins, our choices, because he knows we have free will,” you again miss the obvious: The “life…” and “things present…” and “things to come…” contain every single moment where a child of God WILL, in fact, stumble, fall, and maybe even sin like David did. But, my friend, IF you are a child of the God of grace, you are already “seated in the heavenlies” with Christ now, because you were chosen for that in eternity past. And I, with Paul, am “confident of this very thing: that He who has begun a good work in you WILL complete it unto the day of Christ Jesus!”

No one, Catholic or non-Catholic Christian, denies God cannot fail; is not unfaithful; is all powerful and all-knowing. In our relationship, He is the only constant; we, on the other hand, are the variable.
Let’s look at that section of Romans 8.
33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.No perscutor, no un-believer, no source of trial can sever our relationship with God. None of these sources can affect that relationship.
The Greek used for “intercedes” tells us this intercession is on-going. This makes sense; Christ is always urging us, praying for us.
From your point of view, however, this would be unnecessary, as you claim we’ve already attained heaven. What need has Christ to intercede to His Father if the one for whom He is interceding already has the prize, is “already ‘seated in the heavenlies’ with Christ now?”

35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
It is important to note what is missing from this list: our own choices, our sins of commission and omission. Everything listed is external to us.
It is clear Paul is speaking about those things - our sins, our choices - especially if we look back in Rom 8:
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, **if indeed we suffer with Him **so that we may also be glorified with Him.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
We do not have a choice as to when, where and how the persecution comes; we Christians know persecution comes in all forms.
We do have a choice as to how to respond to those persecutions. While I appreciate Frontline’s “manifestation/manifestive” approach, Paul’s conditional statements are clear.

37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If we accept your assertion that the true believer (1) knows he is a true believer, and (2) knows he will always persevere, then we have to ask why the Holy Spirit included any of what Frontline calls “hypothetical” yet never to happen?
Instead, Paul is telling us it is Christ who works through us; and as Christ is God, is Love, there is no invasion, no forcing Himself on us; in true love, He will only work through us if we allow Him to do so.
And again, Paul’s list excludes us, our own choices, our sins. To say “nor things present, nor things to come,…nor any other created thing” includes our sins is to both ignore the context and create an untenable position: God created/creates sin.

 

[cfrancis]

Thank you - you saved me a lot of typing. I was going to give a full exposition of that passage - but I think you made it very clear. Also - we should mention to our Catholic friends that 1 John 5:13 explicitly states: “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; so that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

We fully acknowledge 1 Jn 5:13: we must believe on Christ - and all He said and did.
Heb 5:9
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those **who obey Him **the source of eternal salvation,
1 Pt 3:20-21
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Jn 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jn 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that **whoever believes **in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Jn 5:24, 28-29
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Mt 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Mt 18:21-35
Forgive

Mt 24:12
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Mt 25:14-30 The Parable of the Talents
This is what happened to the slave who did nothing with the talent given to him by the master:
30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 25:31-46
This is what happened to the one who did not do good works:
45 "Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Rom 2:5-8
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

It is more than clear that if a person is truly saved, he will not fall away - but let me lay it out again for the sake of all who are reading this thread:

Thing is, you cannot prove who is and who is not saved, who will and who will not persevere to the end, until after the fact. Your position amounts to picking the winning lottery numbers after they’re announced.

 

[Frontline]

We fully acknowledge 1 Jn 5:13: we must believe on Christ - and all He said and did.

If you “fully acknowledge 1John 5:13” then how do you claim that a person who is truly born again, cannot know for sure that he has eternal life?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Sorry for the confusion, Chesterton. I was saying with that link to the 1689 that even the great Reformed confession of faith admits we have free will to sin.

OK.

I have seen quotes from Calvinists that seem to contradict this confession.

They state that everything that happens is God’s will.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

If you “fully acknowledge 1John 5:13” then how do you claim that a person who is truly born again, cannot know for sure that he has eternal life?

If Paul didn’t know, how can we?

Phil 3

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.