Personal interpretation clause

[BereanRuss]

The center of the Catholic faith is Christ.

I like the sound of that Brad!

So let me ask you in the friendliest way I am able, is the Priesthood necessary for the NT believer or is Jesus all that we need to have fellowship with God and each other?

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[BereanRuss]

I do not think that Jesus was asking the man for a personal interpretation…I think Jesus would not need one. .

I agree. But Jesus expected Him to know and understand the word of God. Had he not known I am sure that Jesus would have rebuked him.

I think you are missing my point for the Church of Thyatira. The church would have never allowed a woman in the church to teach the members of the church to commit physical sexual immorality. The church would not allow such teaching out in the open. Jesus is warning of a spiritual immorality – the worship of other Gods especially the making of idols. Jesus is warning the church of a woman who is allowed to teach in the church that it is right and good to make idols and bow down to them and pray to them. This is what the church was allowing and this is the “sexual immorality” that Jesus warns against.

 

[BereanRuss]

…

Donald, your post did not post.

 

[donalddon5]

I agree. But Jesus expected Him to know and understand the word of God. Had he not known I am sure that Jesus would have rebuked him.

I think you are missing my point for the Church of Thyatira. The church would have never allowed a woman in the church to teach the members of the church to commit physical sexual immorality. The church would not allow such teaching out in the open. Jesus is warning of a spiritual immorality – the worship of other Gods especially the making of idols. Jesus is warning the church of a woman who is allowed to teach in the church that it is right and good to make idols and bow down to them and pray to them. This is what the church was allowing and this is the “sexual immorality” that Jesus warns against.

But the Church of Thyatira did allow a woman to mislead them and this is what Christ is warning them about.This women claim to be a prophetess(Verse 20) and is luring Jesus servants away to commit the adultery of eating food which has been sacrificed to idols. However this women who is never identified by name but by the title of Jezebel(1Kings 16:31-21: 26; 2Kings 9:22-37). She was obviously of some importance in that Church and most likely some arguments say a wife of the Priest or elder (remember Priests could married at the time). Now my point is that she probably did actually lead them into sexual immorality literally since this was common practice with what she mislead them into, one only needs to study the history of the culture of the City to see that and that is what I was trying to point out was that it was literally. She did not teach physical sexual immorality in the open of the Church but lead Jesus servants away from the Church with false doctrines and in those practices is where the sexual immorality occurred. Note: it was common practice:

Direct quote, please see bottom for source:

Thyatira (modern Akhisar, Turkey) was located just 35 miles southeast of Pergamum. The businesswoman Lydia, the seller of purple cloth who was converted by Paul, was from this city (see Acts. 16:14-15). In the 1st century this city was known for the dominance of her trade guilds over the local economy. Every business in Thyatira was strictly controlled by these powerful trade guilds. In order to work in any trade, one had to belong to the guild of that trade and to belong to a guild was integrally connected with the pagan religions that were approved by the Roman government. All the guild meetings took place in the pagan temples and the eating of a common meal, the meat of which had been sacrificed to pagan gods, was the accepted practice. In addition to eating meat sacrificed to pagan idols, illicit sexual relations were a central aspect of pagan worship. Most temples had male and female prostitutes who were permanently assigned to serve the temple and its worshipers.

The above argument was base on studies at following website:

agapebiblestudy.com/Revelation/Chapter%202%20Thyatira.htm

 

[bradwill911]

I like the sound of that Brad!

So let me ask you in the friendliest way I am able, is the Priesthood necessary for the NT believer or is Jesus all that we need to have fellowship with God and each other?

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

I’m not sure exactly what you are asking, but if you are wondering if you need to believe in the sacrament of Holy Orders to be a Christian, then your answer is no.

The Church has always had its shepherds (bishops and presbyters).

 

[mo3]

For example, salvation is the gift of God and cannot be attained by works. This is major subject of the New Testament. If salvation can be attained by my works, then I can boast in my salvation but God will never let me boast in anything but the cross of Jesus.

The Catholic Church has “never” taught that salvation can be attained by works. Nobody should boast as about salvation their salvation. It sounds like we agree here. Just to clarify, when a Catholic says “works”, we mean “works of grace received from Jesus Christ.” Instead of saying this long version, we shorten it to works. We are talking about responding to the grace of Jesus Christ (which is a free gift for which you can’t earn) just like you responded (or cooperated) to the free gift of faith in Jesus Christ. If you did not respond (or cooperate) to His free gift, you would not have faith. In other words, you actually “did something” to receive the free gift of faith. You responded and cooperated with the grace of Jesus Christ!

If a person can add anything to their own salvation then God is indebted to them but God will never be a debtor to any man. We are in debt to Him not vice versa.

Please see these verses:
James 5:20 - he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Peter 4:8 8 - Above all, let your love for one another be intense, because love covers a multitude of sins.

If a person can add nothing to their salvation, how are these verses true? How can something we “do” like bringing a sinner back “cover a multitude of sins?” How can something we “do” like love “cover a multitude of sins?”

And yes, the verse I quoted guarantees that the Spirit will correct us.

Can you please give me the verse that says we are “guaranteed” the Holy Spirit will correct us?

When Jesus says that something will happen, it is guaranteed to happen.

Of course this statement is true. You have switched my statement into something I did not say. I said “there is no place in scripture that says you are “guaranteed” to get the true interpretation of scripture if you “believe” you are guided by the Holy Spirit.”

Thank you for your consideration. God bless.

 

[mo3]

Maybe check 1 Timothy. There are frequent encouragements there to “test” teachings that are apparently being received. The way I read/understand it, it makes sense to interpret this to include written sources (including Scripture) with the things that should be “tested.”

Just a thought.

Yes we should test all things, but this verse does not say to test all things to the “written” word. If so, then the Church would be useless.

God bless.

 

[BereanRuss]

I’m not sure exactly what you are asking, but if you are wondering if you need to believe in the sacrament of Holy Orders to be a Christian, then your answer is no.

The Church has always had its shepherds (bishops and presbyters).

Let me ask the question another way. Is your relationship with God dependant communion or confession that can only be administered by a priest or is Jesus all you need to be forgiven and remain in fellowship with God? Is Jesus your priest or is there another, earthly priest, that you depend upon to continue in your relationship with God?

 

[bradwill911]

Let me ask the question another way. Is your relationship with God dependant communion or confession that can only be administered by a priest or is Jesus all you need to be forgiven and remain in fellowship with God? Is Jesus your priest or is there another, earthly priest, that you depend upon to continue in your relationship with God?

My relationship with God is dependent on the grace of God. Is Jesus my priest?

CCC 1544 Everything that the priesthood of the Old Covenant prefigured finds its fulfillment in Christ Jesus, the “one mediator between God and men.” The Christian tradition considers Melchizedek, “priest of God Most High,” as a prefiguration of the priesthood of Christ, the unique “high priest after the order of Melchizedek”, “holy, blameless, unstained,” “by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified,” that is, by the unique sacrifice of the cross.

As far as the sacraments you are asking about, they were instituted by Christ, so even in the sacraments we are depending on Christ.

 

[BereanRuss]

The Catholic Church has “never” taught that salvation can be attained by works.

Well, I have spent many hour speaking (blogging) with catholic clergy that would not agree with you. Not to mention many official infallible statements by the church like:

If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.

Please see these verses:
James 5:20 - he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Peter 4:8 8 - Above all, let your love for one another be intense, because love covers a multitude of sins.

Look at James 5:20 above and ask yourself, “who’s soul is being saved from death?” It is the “sinner”, right? Who then has his sins covered? It can’t be the one who brought them back because their sin is already covered by the blood of Jesus.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So, it is the sinner who has had his sins covered, not the one who brought them back.

And, yes, love covers a multitude of sins. If I love someone I will not expose their sin (even as Joseph loved Mary and did not want to put her away) but I will cover it. Again, I am not earning forgiveness – The believer can’t earn forgiveness nor does he need to earn forgiveness because they are already forgiven.

Can you please give me the verse that says we are “guaranteed” the Holy Spirit will correct us?

Well, again, the verse I quoted does guarantee that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth and the word of God is truth but I think I understand your point. I think we are disagreeing over the timing. God does not promise to immediately lead every believer into all truth. I may go for years with the wrong understanding of something in the Bible. I may even die with misconception about certain truths. However, I will be one day a perfect man:

…till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

A child cannot learn to run before he walks. God will lead us into the truth as we grow and as we ask Him to teach us and to conform us into the image of Christ. And God is patient. He does not demand that every Christian agree and believe exactly the same just as every child of the same parents is not the same as the other.

 

[PJM]

=BereanRuss;5018306]Are you sure you looked thoroughly? I’ll tell you what. Why don’t we both spend a few hours this evening honestly searching our Bibles and see if we can find any? Then we can come back tomorrow and post what we found. Deal? If there are none, I will willingly and openly repent of my position. Are you willing to do the same?

Dear friend in Christ,

I have learned after years in sales, not to ask questions that I don’t know already the anser too. But please leel free to check me out. I’ a falible child of our God.

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[PJM]

=BereanRuss;5019394]

So let me ask you in the friendliest way I am able, is the Priesthood necessary for the NT believer or is Jesus all that we need to have fellowship with God and each other?

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

If faith were all that was needed, why did Christ Himself found His Catholic Church?
No Catholic Priest= no Jesus in the Eucharist= no Church= No Salvation!

**Seek and you shall find:**thumbsup:

17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18* He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19* Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Friends why would Jesus who is god share all this, except to lead you to salvation

I dislike being the one to break the bad news to you, however in Chrsitian Charity I must.

REPLY to a previous OP…
Redeemption as I have said reteatedly is completely seperate from the issue of Salvation. You can continue in your believe and take your chances. or do the prudent thing and check it out in God’s Word, His Bible for yourselves.

Redeemption is a direct intervention and reponce by the God that Created all of humanity, to make Heaven Possible.

Heaven had been blocked from the Orginal Sins of Adam and Eve, so from that time, to the Ressurection of Christ, no one couls enter Heaven! So Redeemption is now a done deal!

If Salvation was assured why the following?

Heb. 5: 9 and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 10* being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizede"

2 Tim. 3 " 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 **and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. **16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

2 Cor.7 " 9 As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting; for you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. 10 **For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death." **

Eph. 6:“17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,”

1 Pt. 2:“1 So put away all malice and all guile and insincerity and envy and all slander. 2 Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation;”

Phil. 2: "12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation"

Rom.1:16" For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek"

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, **"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. **

=cazayoux;5020466]Christ redeemed all men … He shed His blood for ALL sin past, present, and future.You would agree that not all men are saved, iow … not all men will go to heaven.

redeemed and saved … vs … redeemed and not saved.

what is the difference between these two groups?

All are redeemed but only those who cooperate with God’s mandate; are Baptized, Keep all of His Commandments, are charitable and do good works.

Read James Chapter 2

Is it something that Jesus did or didn’t do?
Or is it something the saved or unsaved did or did not do?

Mt. 16: 17* And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, * and on this rock * I will build my church,* and the powers of death * shall not prevail against it. 19* I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”.

Jn. 20:"1 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” /COLOR

Friends you can nolonger pretend to not know the truth. Pray about it, because Chrsit will Judge you as knowing His TRUTH.

Love and prayers.

 

[BereanRuss]

Dear friend in Christ,

I have learned after years in sales, not to ask questions that I don’t know already the anser too. But please leel free to check me out. I’ a falible child of our God.

Love and prayers,

Pat

Jesus said, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

How can God hold those who did not repent accountable if He did not expect them to hear and understand His word? From where were they to get the interpretation? From the Jewish Priests and Pharisees who will soon reject and crucify Him? From the Apostles who had only been with Him a short time and were hearing, “the kingdom of heaven is at hand” for the very first time themselves?

God not only allows us to interpret His word, He expects us to interpret and understand and apply His word to every situation in our lives.

 

[BereanRuss]

If faith were all that was needed, why did Christ Himself found His Catholic Church?

The word of God clearly says that we are saved by faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. [Rom 3:28]

And,

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. [Rom 11:6]

But James says,

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. [James 2:24]

Both truths are the word of God and it is impossible for God to lie so these verses must be reconciled or the Bible cannot be the word of God.

In addition, we know that when Paul uses the word “law” he is including the moral law:

I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” [Rom 7:7]

Paul says that we are not justified by the works of the law but James says that we are justified by works. How do you reconcile these?

 

[Jerry_Marino]

God bless you my brother

 

[donalddon5]

The word of God clearly says that we are saved by faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. [Rom 3:28]

And,

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. [Rom 11:6]

But James says,

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. [James 2:24]

Both truths are the word of God and it is impossible for God to lie so these verses must be reconciled or the Bible cannot be the word of God.

In addition, we know that when Paul uses the word “law” he is including the moral law:

I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” [Rom 7:7]

Paul says that we are not justified by the works of the law but James says that we are justified by works. How do you reconcile these?

Is it that Saint Paul is talking about the law of Moses and being Christ is the fulfillment of that law the it is not longer by the works of the law; whereas, Saint James is talking about the works of charity and this would be in relationship to other versus where Christ talks about slothful servants that are condemn because they do no works?

 

[Jerry_Marino]

God bless you for the work you do for charity but this work is not going to help you get into heaven, it is your faith.

‘faith without works is dead;’ true, but ‘I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.’

what is the ‘work’ of God? Jesus was asked this question and His answer is, ‘believe in the One He has sent.’

one must believe whole heartedly in the Gospel of Christ then upon doing so the Holy Spirit indwells the person and begins His work in them.

**Ephisians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;

9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.

10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.**

v8. tells us how we are saved and where salvation comes from, a gift from God.
v9. perfectly clear that is not of works, any kind of work that we won’t say, ‘look at me.’
v10. we are God’s work, created in Christ ‘to do the good works’ that God has prepared for to live in them.

my friends, faith is first without it you glorify yourself a good example would be , ms oprah, she does plenty of work do you think that she is heaven bound?

God bless you all

 

[BereanRuss]

Is it that Saint Paul is talking about the law of Moses and being Christ is the fulfillment of that law the it is not longer by the works of the law; whereas, Saint James is talking about the works of charity and this would be in relationship to other versus where Christ talks about slothful servants that are condemn because they do no works?

DonaldDon,

You are on the right track. Paul is speaking of the works of the law. James in speaking of works of faith. The two are vary different from each other. We cannot be saved be attempting to keep the Law of Moses. If we attempt to approach God through the law of Moses, we actually become more indebted to God every day.

Look at the works that James uses for his examples. “…was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when…” Exactly what works did Rahab do to be justified? Works of the Law? She is guilty of adultery on a daily basis. She is breaking the law of Moses every day yet God says that she is justified by her works. She is not justified by the works of the law, she is justified by works of faith.

We cannot be saved by trying to keep the law – We are not saved by never missing mass or never missing communion. We are not saved by rituals.

We are saved by believing the word of God just as Rahab believed the word of God when she heard that Jericho would be destroyed and Abraham believed the word of God when God said that he would be the father of many nations.

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent. [John 6:29]

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? [Gal 4:21]

 

[BereanRuss]

God bless you my brother

…do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.

God bess you as well.

 

[jlhargus]

DonaldDon,

You are on the right track. Paul is speaking of the works of the law. James in speaking of works of faith. The two are vary different from each other. We cannot be saved be attempting to keep the Law of Moses. If we attempt to approach God through the law of Moses, we actually become more indebted to God every day.

Look at the works that James uses for his examples. “…was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when…” Exactly what works did Rahab do to be justified? Works of the Law? She is guilty of adultery on a daily basis. She is breaking the law of Moses every day yet God says that she is justified by her works. She is not justified by the works of the law, she is justified by works of faith.

We cannot be saved by trying to keep the law – We are not saved by never missing mass or never missing communion. We are not saved by rituals.

We are saved by believing the word of God just as Rahab believed the word of God when she heard that Jericho would be destroyed and Abraham believed, had faith only, the word of God when God said that he would be the father of many nations.

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent. [John 6:29]

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? [Gal 4:21]

JL: Rahab was not saved by faith alone. She was saved by the obedience of faith working in love. She believed Jericho would be destroyed and acted on that faith belief. She would not have been saved had she only believed Jericho would be destroyed and NOT ACTED by receiving and sending those messengers out another way. Also Rahab would not have been saved had she continued in prostitution.

Had Rahab believed by faith only and turned in those Israelites she would not have been saved as her faith would have been dead, useless. [Jms2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, AND not by FAITH only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when she had RECEIVED THE MESSENGERS, AND had SENT THEM OUT ANOTHER WAY? 26 For as THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also.] Faith without works is dead, just as a body without a spirit is dead, it takes both. No we are not saved by going to mass, even every day, we must have the obedience of faith to go alone with that, it takes BOTH, faith and works.