Personal interpretation clause

[BereanRuss]

Was David not required to offer sacrifice? That IS a good question!

Brad,

I am sorry I was not clearer. I did not intend to say that David never offered any sacrifices. Of course David offered sacrifices just as you pointed out. What I meant to say that He did not offer a sacrifice as part of his repentance after committing adultery with Bathsheba. That is the subject of Psalm 51 from which I quoted.

My question remains, If Catholicism is not based on works, what need is there for the priest?

 

[davidv]

Brad,

I am sorry I was not clearer. I did not intend to say that David never offered any sacrifices. Of course David offered sacrifices just as you pointed out. What I meant to say that He did not offer a sacrifice as part of his repentance after committing adultery with Bathsheba. That is the subject of Psalm 51 from which I quoted.

My question remains, If Catholicism is not based on works, what need is there for the priest?

Their primary purpose is to re-present the eternal sacrifice and “feed the sheep”. (John.21:17 )

 

[BereanRuss]

Your understanding of what the Church teaches leaves much to be desired

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

 

[bradwill911]

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Yes, 841 and the previous paragraphs are explaining the Church’s relationship with other non-Catholic Christians, Jews, Muslims, and mankind. Jews also adore the one, merciful God, but their understanding of God is incomplete and they deny Christ. That doesn’t mean that we have no relationship with them. Muslims believe they are following the faith of Abraham and they believe that they were given the prophet in Deut 18:18. They are wrong, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have a relationship with them. We have a relationship with mankind and God’s salvation plan includes mankind. That doesn’t mean that all of mankind will be saved.

 

[BereanRuss]

Their primary purpose is to re-present the eternal sacrifice and “feed the sheep”.

John 21:17 does not say, “… to re-present the eternal sacrifice”.

 

[bradwill911]

Brad,

I am sorry I was not clearer. I did not intend to say that David never offered any sacrifices. Of course David offered sacrifices just as you pointed out. What I meant to say that He did not offer a sacrifice as part of his repentance after committing adultery with Bathsheba. That is the subject of Psalm 51 from which I quoted.

My question remains, If Catholicism is not based on works, what need is there for the priest?

Non-Catholic Christians believe that they do not have to follow what Jesus told us to do. They believe that they can ignore Christ because they are saved.

 

[BereanRuss]

That doesn’t mean that all of mankind will be saved.

Then are you saying that some can be saved apart from the eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus? Jesus said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man…” and even NHInsider said, “Sounds pretty emphatic, doesn’t He?” Are you are spiritualizing the words of Jesus and saying that they do not apply in all cases even though Jesus said, “Amen, amen…”?

However, my previous question still stands, if Catholicism is not based on works, why is the work of the priest necessary?

 

[BereanRuss]

Non-Catholic Christians believe that they do not have to follow what Jesus told us to do. They believe that they can ignore Christ because they are saved.

There is no earthly priesthood in the NT because no earthy priest is required for the believer to fully follow Jesus and obey Him in all things.

 

[jlhargus]

Then are you saying that some can be saved apart from the eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus? Jesus said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man…” and even NHInsider said, “Sounds pretty emphatic, doesn’t He?” Are you are spiritualizing the words of Jesus and saying that they do not apply in all cases even though Jesus said, “Amen, amen…”?

However, my previous question still stands, if Catholicism is not based on works, why is the work of the priest necessary?

JL: Why is the work of a pastor necessary

 

[jlhargus]

Then are you saying that some can be saved apart from the eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus? Jesus said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man…” and even NHInsider said, “Sounds pretty emphatic, doesn’t He?” Are you are spiritualizing the words of Jesus and saying that they do not apply in all cases even though Jesus said, “Amen, amen…”?

However, my previous question still stands, if Catholicism is not based on works, why is the work of the priest necessary?

JL: Sacraments do not limit God, he is free to act and bestow grace however, whenever and to whomever he sees fit, but only to those who thru no fault of there own, do not know his will or who cannot do his will. Sacraments are God’s normative and intended way. They are God’s gift to his immediate household, to provide for their needs, well-being, growth and security. Just as any good earthly father provides for the well-being of his family. Yet he gives to those outside his immediate household, who are in need.

Eucharist and baptism are necessary, but not an absolute necessity, without exceptions. Natural birth is the normative necessity, but not an absolute necessity, without exceptions. In exceptional cases the physician intervenes, birthing by cesarean. The Great Physician, in exceptional cases, can intervene in our spiritual birth. The Holy Spirit can circumcise the heart of one who desires to do the will of God, by baptism of desire or blood. When the lack, of baptism by water, is thru no deliberate fault of their own, such as the thief on the cross.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by BereanRuss
The word of God clearly says that we are saved by faith.

**Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. **[Rom 3:28]

And,

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. [Rom 11:6]

But James says,

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. [James 2:24]

Both truths are the word of God and it is impossible for God to lie so these verses must be reconciled or the Bible cannot be the word of God.

In addition, we know that when Paul uses the word “law” he is including the moral law:

I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” [Rom 7:7]

Paul says that we are not justified by the works of the law but James says that we are justified by works. How do you reconcile these?

Dear friends,

If one reads closely and more fully Pauls writtings on the subject, one can discern that “the law” being spoken of here is the Old Testament Book of Laws that grew from 10 Commandments to over 640 seperate “laws.”

See wghat Romans 6:14-17 have to say… 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed," Note here Paul is speaking of “good-works”.

And Here Paul in Hebrews 8:**"**13 I"n speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

So taken in proper context, Paul is NOT saying Salvation id through Faith Alone. Many other Bible verses support what I am saying.

Love and prayers,

 

[bradwill911]

My question remains, If Catholicism is not based on works, what need is there for the priest?

Before I begin, sorry I had to step away. I went to Mass, so I guess I’m trying to earn my salvation

Now, as I’ve stated before, you cannot separate faith from works. It is faith AND works. So, you still try to isolate works apart from faith and claim that we are based on works. No matter how many times I say otherwise, you still disagree. This is a misrepresentation of my faith. If you want to disagree with what I believe, then that’s okay, you are free to do so. But, do not misrepresent my beliefs and then tell me why it’s wrong. I would also disagree with your misrepresentations of my faith.

Ultimately, it all boils down to authority and the fact that you do not recognize the RCC as having the authority it claims. As a Catholic, we believe that each sacrament was instituted by Christ. Holy Orders is one such sacrament. Now, let me share a few things with you with the help of “The Faith Explained” by Leo Trese:

He starts by explaining sacrifice, “in its strict meaning, its original meaning, a sacrifice is the offering of a gift to God by a group, through the agency of someone who has the right to represent the group.” The purpose of this is “to give group worship to God…to acknowledge God’s supreme lordship over mankind, to thank him for his blessings, to atone for human sin, and to beg for his benefits. It is not that God needs our gifts.”

The one who offers sacrifice in the name of a group is called a priest. He goes on, "When the Old Law ended with the establishment of the New Law by Christ, the priesthood of the Old Law also came to an end. The New Law of love would have a new sacrifice and a new priesthood.

At the Last Supper Jesus instituted the holy sacrifice of the Mass." Instead of the gifts found in the OT, the new gift would be worthy of God, it was God’s own Son. “Who would be the human priest to whom Christ would give the power of making the God-man present upon the altar, under the appearances of bread and wine? There were eleven such priests, to begin with.” He made the apostles priests when he gave them the command and power to “Do this in remembrance of me.” He later gave them the power to forgive sins in his name (John 20:22-23).

This power didn’t die with the apostles, the apostles passed on this power in the ceremony that we now call Holy Orders. Acts 6:5-6: “And what they said pleased the whole multitude, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip and Prochorus and Nicanor and Timon and Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch. These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and laid their hands upon them.” We also read of bishops in the NT, right? So, if the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass IS what we claim it to be, then it would make sense that it would include priests.

 

[jlhargus]

John 21:17 does not say, “… to re-present the eternal sacrifice”.

JL: What did Christ finish on the cross, Paul says, If Christ be not raised your faith is vain you are yet in your sins. 1Cor 15:17 Christ our High Priest had to enter the Holy of Holies with his blood, to make atonement, just as the OT High Priest entered yearly the earthly Holy of Holies with the blood of the sacrifice, to make atonement. Christ entered once into the true tabernacle not made by hands, were he ever lives, the Lamb of God once slain, who takes away the sins of the world as our one mediator, interceding for us bringing to remembrance that PURE OFFERING, this IS my body, this IS my blood, the sacrifice of the cross, showing HIS BODY and HIS BLOOD before the Father and MAKING PRESENT to his people, the Church, his once for all sacrifice on the cross. The bread of life and the blood of the Lamb.

[Ex 25:30 And you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always] The bread of the Presence is placed on a table before the Presence of God above the Ark of the Old Covenant in the Holy of Holies. The Temple bread of the Presence is a type and foreshadowing, of Christ and his real Presence, as the bread of life, the Lamb of God, who will stand in the midst of the throne bringing to remembrance the sacrifice of the cross, before the Father.

[Rv 5:6 …in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders STOOD A LAMB AS IT HAD BEEN SLAIN …] Our slain sacrificed Passover Lamb the Bread of Life with his atoning blood ever living and present in the true Holy of Holies in the midst of the throne before God the Father mediating, [1Jn2:1 MY LITTLE CHILDREN, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And IF ANY MAN SIN, we have AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.], our propitiation for sins after baptism, bringing to remembrance and making present his once for all sacrifice of great mercy.

Jesus Christ, our living High Priest who lives, to mediate, making intercession for us. That same, once for all sacrifice of the cross. There is no re-sacrifice it is the same once done MADE PRESENT to us a living memorial sacrifice. [For from the rising to going down of the sun in everyplace a pure offering=sacrifice will be made, Malachi 1:1

Rv 5:6 And I beheld in the midst of the throne … stood a Lamb as it had been slain… Hb 7: 17 …Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hb 7:24 … this man…continues ever…an unchangeable priesthood 25 Wherefore he is able also to save … seeing he ever livets to make intercession for them. … Hb 8…We have such an high priest… 2 A minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle …3 … every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices wherefore IT IS OF NECESSITY THAT THIS MAN HAVE SOMEWHAT ALSO TO OFFER 4 …priests that offer gifts according to the law 5 … serve to the EXAMPLE and SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS… … 6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry… mediator of a better covenant …

Christ is not just sitting and watching events, he is our High Priest interceding for us with the Father making present to the Father and to us that same once for all sacrifice of the lamb on the Cross which we eat at Mass, just as the Israelites ate their Passover lamb. Jn 6:55 My flesh is meat indeed, my blood is drink indeed.

Malacahi 1:11 …from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be offered to my name AND A PURE OFFERING] The prophecy of Malachi says Gentiles will offer incense and make a pure offering (sacrifice) to the Lord’s Name from the rising to setting of the sun in every place. That is fulfilled in the Catholic Church as that same once for all sacrifice of the cross is made present at Mass which is celebrated by priests in every parish daily in all places, the Orthodox Church has this same pure offering also… The OT offerings where clean but not pure only Christ our sacrifice is pure.

The fruit of the the Tree of Life=Cross our Passover Lamb is eaten at mass. [Hb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren THAT HE MIGHT BE a merciful and faithful HIGH PRIEST in things pertaining to God TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE 1Jn 2:2 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html#eucharist-Ia Heb. 9:23 - in this verse, the author writes that the Old Testament sacrifices were only copies of the heavenly things, but now heaven has better “sacrifices” than these. Why is the heavenly sacrifice called “sacrifices,” in the plural? Jesus died once. This is because, while Christ’s sacrifice is transcendent in heaven, it touches down on earth and is sacramentally re-presented over and over again from the rising of the sun to its setting around the world by the priests of Christ’s Church. This is because all moments to God are present in their immediacy, and when we offer the memorial sacrifice to God, we ask God to make the sacrifice that is eternally present to Him also present to us. Jesus’ sacrifice also transcends time and space because it was the sacrifice of God Himself.

 

[bradwill911]

John 21:17 does not say, “… to re-present the eternal sacrifice”.

And nowhere in the New Testament do you find the understanding of the Holy Trinity that we now hold. Our understanding of certain passages within Scripture gave us the doctrine of the Trinity, but “Trinity” is not found in the NT.

 

[jlhargus]

One thing I don’t understand about Catholics is that they often say things that contradict – at least in my small mind. For example, you say that your faith in not in your works – great – but then Catholics will claim that they must receive the Eucharist.

JL: What does our Lord teach about the Eucharist? [Jn6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF ANY MAN EAT of this bread, HE SHALL LIVE FOR EVER: and THE BREAD that I WILL GIVE IS MY FLESH, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, VERILY, VERILY, I SAY unto you, EXCEPT YE EAT the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, YE HAVE NO LIFE IN YOU. 54 WHOSO EATETH my flesh, and drinketh my blood, HATH ETERNAL LIFE; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, and MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED. 56 HE THAT EATETH my flesh, and drinketh my blood, DWELLETH IN ME AND I IN HIM.]

Yes the Church teaches baptism is necessary, just as Christ taught. [Jn3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, VERILY, VERILY, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN AGAIN, he CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, HOW can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, VERILY, VERILY, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN OF WATER AND of the SPIRIT, he CANNOT ENTER into THE KINGDOM of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.] What did the Ezekiel’s prophesy say about baptism? Ezk 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and YOU WILL BE CLEAN; I will cleanse you FROM ALL YOU IMPURITIES and from all your idols. 26 I WILL GIVE YOU A NEW HEART and PUT A NEW SPIRIT IN YOU; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And i WILL PUT MY SPIRIT IN YOU and MOVE YOU TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. Hb5: 8 Though he were a Son, yet LEARNED HE OBEDIENCE by the things which he suffered 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto ALL them THAT OBEY HIM]

In other words, if I don’t DO certain things then I cannot be saved. My friend, that is a work of the law. Anytime you are required to do a certain deed and the punishment for not doing it is separation from God, you are attempting to approach God by the law.

JL: I see that as your opinion only, not supported by scriptural evidence. [Jms1:22 But BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD, and NOT HEARERS ONLY, DECEIVING your own SELVES. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into THE PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY, and CONTINUETH therein, he being NOT A FORGETFUL HEARER, BUT A DOER OF THE WORK, this man SHALL BE BLESSED IN HIS DEED. 26 If any man among you seem to be religious, AND BRIDLETH NOT HIS TONGUE, but DECEIVETH HIS OWN HEART, this man’s religion is vain. 27 PURE RELIGION and UNDEFILED before God and the Father IS THIS, To VISIT the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to KEEP himself UNSPOTTED from the world.

When Christ tells us we need to DO certain things, we must DO them, plain and simple. Good works are necessary, without them you will be lost, you have only dead faith. Mt25 the ten virgins, five didn’t keep their lamps filled or the wick trimmed, they sleep, they didn’t keep watch, assuming they had it made. [Mt25 the parable of the talents, two increased what was given them. One did nothing with what he was given, he was thrown where there is gnashing of teeth. The sheep and goats, Mt25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.] Doesn’t seem these are optional or automatic. [Rv22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly and MY REWARD is with me, TO GIVE EVERY MAN ACCORDING AS HIS WORK SHALL BE] Man will be judged by his deeds.

Works do not contribute in the sense you mean as in “earning salvation”, but contribute in the sense, by doing good works, in co-operation with the grace God gives, even to do the good work, one exercises faith and faith grows and becomes stronger. So no man can boast of any works, all is grace working in love. The Church teaches justification and sanctification are an on going process, starting with the initial free unmerited gift of God and not by works. Some Protestants (a minority of Protestants) teach justification is a one time event and can’t be lost. Is that your belief? Actually when one gets thru all the semantics, there is little difference, with most Protestants. Most problems are misunderstanding each others position and terms.

And so the Priest must “work” to perform the transubstantiation and the people must be sure to be present to receive the Eucharist. The result of all of this “work” is that the people may enter heaven. But by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in the sight of God. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.

JL: By your definition of law, reading the bible would be a work. Don’t you consider reading the bible nescessary?

 

[PJM]

"Dear friends,

I fear what we have here in our discussion of Salvation by Faith Alone or in the 2000-year Old Catholic teaching, of Faith as proven and practiced through works is a failure to communicate.

Friends think about this.

If “faith alone leads to salvation?”

Then why is their such a thing as “sin?” Why did God give us the 10 Commandments and insist we follow them? Not only is your position not biblical, it seems to lack common sense.

Please help me out here!

We have on countless OP Threads replied to non-Catholic Protestant Theology that Faith is the only requirement to Salvation. Meaning Christ has already done all that is necessary. It’s interesting that the position held, seems to be that it is “not only Christ Sacrifice on the Cross, but belief in the same, that “assures one’s salvation.” Friend, “Faith” is a “Work!”

We have provided Bible Quotes that make clear your position is factually anti-biblical. The common response is not to acknowledge receipt of this information, and to gloss over that it even exists.

One wonders if there might be some intellectual dishonesty in this tactic? If you hold the single truth, then you should NOT be afraid to be challenged on the validity of that truth to see if it withstands the evidence, wisdom and logic of the current time? There seems little opportunity, and willingness to discover truth.

Pope Benedict shared this profound thought (paraphrased): There can’t be your truth and my truth, or there would be NO truth, which is THE TRUTH.

Can we agree that we cannot know the mind of God? Isaiah 55: 8-9

We can get a glimpse of the working of God’s Mind and Heart, by understanding God’s Nature, which is and has to be Good. Another truth we can know, is that whatever attributes God possesses, God must possess them to a much higher degree than we can. **God is Perfect, and possesses every Good attribute to it’s Highest Perfection. **

What are some of these attributes that God possesses to their Perfection? God is All Good, Wise, Knowing, Loving, Kind, Powerful, Merciful, Generous and of course All Just (fair). God being God, the perfection of goodness, is and must be in each and every one of these manifestations of His Love.

We Christians are quick to acknowledge the attributes of God that we are comfortable with, but naturally tend to, at least, a little, to gloss over the fact that Yahweh God in the Old Testament was feared, more than loved.

The Hebrew relationship with Yahweh-God was a fearful one. God was quick to exercise His right for Just- Vengeance. (Deut. 32:35, Rom. 12: 19, Heb. 10:30.) But time and time again He relented, showed His Compassion and Merciful Love, and gave them another opportunity. **But first, He punished them with Just retribution. **

Fulton Scheen, points out in his book: ”The Imitation of Christ” that from God calling to Adam in the garden; “Where are you?” (Gen. 3:9), to Saving Noah, to Abram, changing his name to Abraham, and making him the Father of His chosen people, to Moses, the Prophets, Judges, and Kings like David and Solomon, right through to His Apostles “follow Me and I will make you fishers of men.” (Mt. 4:19.) **To the present day, Christ calls us, Mt, 16: 24 **“Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

” It is the very issue of God Justice, that is the stumbling block to the truth about Salvation and Justification.

Webster’s Dictionary definitions… Proves that “Redemption and Salvation” have different meanings.

Redemption, “to redeem -the act, process, or an instance of redeeming “

Our Blessed Lord’s Sacrificial Death the Cross (dare I use this word?) “Only” makes Heaven possible, and reverses the most notable effect of the Sin of Adam and Eve, access to Heaven is now possible.

Salvation: ““1 a: deliverance from the power and effects of sin b: the agent or means that effects salvation 3 a: preservation from destruction or failure b: deliverance from danger or difficulty”

Both are Necessary!

At this juncture it seems prudent to ask ourselves why, in all of God’s awesome Creations, are God Himself, The Angels and humanity blessed and gifted with “intellects and free-wills?” Surely God had something in mind, in bestowing these gifts upon and within us!

Zecharich 8:1, Exodus 34:14 and Psalm 79:5 explain God’s Jealously. “How long, O LORD? Wilt thou be angry forever? Will thy jealous wrath burn like fire?

God’s desire to have a permanent and Personal Relationship with His Created Humanity, which flows from unfathomable Love, that permits Divine Justice to INSIST, and require, that we Love Him in return, not only for His many gifts, but also for God’s many Sacrifices.

2nd. Cor. 6:1 Working together with him, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. For he says, “At the acceptable time I have listened to you, and helped you on the day of salvation.” Now is the acceptable time; Now is the day of salvation, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: through great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities, beatings, labors, hunger; by purity, knowledge, forbearance, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love, truthful speech, and the power of God; in honor and dishonor, in ill repute and good repute. We are treated as impostors, **and yet are true;**as dying, and behold we live; as punished, and yet not killed; as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

2 Tim. 4: 1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead. Preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching”

 

[bradwill911]

Then are you saying that some can be saved apart from the eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus? Jesus said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man…” and even NHInsider said, “Sounds pretty emphatic, doesn’t He?” Are you are spiritualizing the words of Jesus and saying that they do not apply in all cases even though Jesus said, “Amen, amen…”?

While we are bound to the sacraments, God is not.

 

[bradwill911]

 

[BereanRuss]

Why is the work of a pastor necessary?

The work of the pastor is not necessary. We are blessed with many pastors here in the US but there are many small fellowships even in the US and abroad that meet in homes and do not have a pastor. Naturally, some will rise up and assume leadership roles.

 

[BereanRuss]

QUOTE=jlhargus;5032139] Eucharist and baptism are necessary, but not an absolute necessity, without exceptions.

Jesus said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.”

Now compare what Jesus said with what you said. Either Jesus is wrong or you are wrong.

You cannot accuse protestants of spiritualizing this verse and when you are spiritualizing the verse yourself.