Personal interpretation of Scripture and Authority of Church

[Ginger2]

Tell me how the one who hears ‘literal’ and is assured by Scripture and the Spirit that he/she knows correctly, and will be saved, differs from the one who hears ‘literal’ and is equally assured by Scripture and the Spirit that he/she knows correctly, but doesn’t realize he/she is damned.

The Bible tells us how, but you don’t listen because it seems you are solely focused on self justification.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5643444&highlight=deny+Jesus#post5643444
"ginger2:

JW’s deny Christ came in the flesh. The Bible says clearly: every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:

And especially (I have answered this repeatedly :banghead, since Scripture is so ‘clear’, how do you explain that so many Protestant churches teach opposing doctrine?

N
Just how do you know for sure that some of those ‘opposing doctrines’ aren’t necessary for salvation? If these are ‘in the Bible’, then aren’t they necessary? If they aren’t, why are they in there? If they are, why don’t all the Protestant churches teach them consistently?
.

Which doctrines found in the Bible did I say I deny? Show me the post, please.

It is the extra-Biblical doctrines which I claim are not necessary. We are free to believe or reject them as long as it is not anything that contradicts the Scriptures.

Ginger

 

[estesbob]

The Bible tells us how, but you don’t listen because it seems you are solely focused on self justification.

Tells us based on who’s interpretation?

Which doctrines found in the Bible did I say I deny? Show me the post, please.

It is the extra-Biblical doctrines which I claim are not necessary. We are free to believe or reject them as long as it is not anything that contradicts the Scriptures.

Ginger

Based on who’s opinion of whether or not it contradicts scripture? Baptists , for instance, claim Catholics interpreation of John 6 contradicts scripture. how do we resolve that?

 

[Ginger2]

One thing positive-no one can accuse you of embracing doctrines that did not exist prior to the so called reformation. Gnosticism predates christianity.

I’m with the other poster in thinking that you definitely have fallen a victim to the gnostic influence.

It appears to me Catholics are the ones who place a great deal of faith in knowledge as is repeatedly inferred that only the Catholic Church has knowledge to understand and interpret and its members are dependent on that knowledge for their salvation.

I believe what the Bible tells us is necessary for salvation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Ginger

 

[St_Aloysius_1]

Paul also passed Tradtion on in Timothy and urged him to do likewise with his children. Other Apostles and their disciples speak of Tradition as the common paractice. Since the first days of the Church it has been on equal footing with Scripture.

In the modern age with new bible only churches there is no sense of history, of how the Church actually survived for all that time without the full written word of the NT. It doesn’t do a disservice to the NT to acknowledge that there was another way of teaching and evangelizing when there was yet no NT. It only makes sense because the Word did spread by the work of the Apostles, their disciples and their disciples disciples. Give these men credit foi building the Church instead of knocking thier methods because of your wrongheaded obsession that there is only one way to learn about Jesus.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You are solely focused on self justification.

Ok, it’s a good thing I wasn’t taking a sip of tea when I read that because I laughed so hard. . .

WHO is focused on self-justification, Ginger?

No, you have not answered the questions. How do you explain Protestant A who says John 6 is literal (the interpretation with which you personally agree) “knew” this through Scripture and what he claims is the Holy Spirit when Protestant B, using the SAME Scripture and the SAME Spirit ‘knows’ it is figurative?

 

[estesbob]

It appears to me Catholics are the ones who place a great deal of faith in knowledge as is repeatedly inferred that only the Catholic Church has knowledge to understand and interpret and its members are dependent on that knowledge for their salvation.

I believe what the Bible tells us is necessary for salvation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Ginger

So how do we resolve the fact that the Bible appears to tells so many different people so many different things?

When looking for the truth should I put my faith in the consistent teachings of an institution that has been around from the day Christ died OR each individual persons personal interpretation of a book that was given to them by the Church?

if we were to follow your apporach a person who wanted to be a physicist would ignore the research of all who went before them and start from scratch.

 

[twb1621]

The Bible tells us…

I’m really not trying to be difficult here but this is the Forth request for your response; Because of the differences in our interpretations, I feel it is an important and valued request from you.

I asked previously if you would review the scripture verses in the posts linked below and I did not find any response so would you please respond how you reconcile the fact that it is but one faith, one set of teachings and beliefs but so many “Christian Faiths” have different beliefs all believing they are the right one? This is in direct contradiction to many verses within scripture. What I was asking for was your interpretation to each verse in relation to the many faiths in contrast to the history and longevity of the Catholic Church.

938 939

 

[Ginger2]

What I was asking for was your interpretation to each verse in relation to the many faiths in contrast to the history and longevity of the Catholic Church.

Oh, I took a partial quote, “No where in Scripture does it say the Church Jesus founded would end.” from the end of the links you provided, and commented.

But now I understand why you didn’t understand. You want me take each verse, one at a time, and explain/defend every religion that disagrees with the Catholic Church!!!

May I ask why you think I would waste time defending every belief that may exist - even when I’m certain to disagree with them?

If you would like me to defend my own faith, I’ll be happy to oblige, but I cannot speak for others - I’m not a mind reader, afterall.

 

[Ginger2]

…Give these men credit foi building the Church instead of knocking thier methods because of your wrongheaded obsession that there is only one way to learn about Jesus.

LMPBO

Catholics are the ones who claim there is only one way - the Catholic Church.
Aren’t you the only ones who have a correct interpretation?
despite what the Bible says: Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ

Aren’t you the only ones who claim there is no salvation outside the RC?
despite what the Bible says: Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[holy_moly]

QUOTE=Ginger2;5656190]Ok, Who then, deceived satan?

Didn’t satan deceive himself by exercising his free will?

 

[Ginger2]

Holy Moly, our conversation went like this:

Quote: shoewindow3000
If Satan can deceive angels (who are much wiser than us, and have a direct audience with God), then fooling people would be a cakewalk.
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

Quote: Ginger2
Where in Scripture does it say the angels who followed satan were deceived?

**Quote: shoewindow3000 **
In the Book of Jude, did you ever notice Jude 1:14-15? It says…

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”
**
Quote: Ginger2**
I do not see the words, “the angels were deceived by satan” in the Book of Jude.

Quote: shoewindow3000
Where did demons come from then? Surely God would not make creatures that would intentionally hate Him.
**
Quote: Ginger2**
Ok, Who then, deceived satan?
Quote: Holy Moly
Didn’t satan deceive himself by exercising his free will?

I’m not sure whether satan was deceived or simply made a freewill.

 

[holy_moly]

I’m not sure whether satan was deceived or simply made a freewill.

If by ‘satan’, we are talking about Lucifer, who/what was there to temp him? It was his choice to fall from grace, same as it was Adam & Eves no?

 

[Ginger2]

If by ‘satan’, we are talking about Lucifer, who/what was there to temp him? It was his choice to fall from grace, …

That is what I think, too.

The issue is whether satan deceived the other angels who chose to follow him or not.

I think the other angels made a choice to rebel against God.

Shoewindow3000 says, “God would not make creatures that would intentionally hate Him”

So the question is, "who/what was there to temp [satan]? It was his choice to fall from grace, "

 

[shoewindow3000]

Satan was proud.

Haven’t you ever read Isaiah, where he says how Lucifer tried to exalt himself above God?

It was pride that separated satan from God.

(In a sense, he does exalt himself. He creates false religions, and then “verifies” them with false miracles.)

 

[shoewindow3000]

Here is something to consider:

Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites. But, He also told His disciples that they should listen to them REGARDLESS of that fact.

Why?

Because, “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.”

(Matthew 23:2-3)

Even though they were hypocrites and corrupt (though not all of them, such as Nicodemus), the fact of the matter is, they were in the position of authority that God installed.

 

[Ginger2]

Satan was proud.

Haven’t you ever read Isaiah, where he says how Lucifer tried to exalt himself above God?

It was pride that separated satan from God.

Although you state your postition as tho we disagree, . It sounds like we all do agree on this point. Nice for a change.

 

[Ginger2]

Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites. But, He also told His disciples that they should listen to them REGARDLESS of that fact.

This is indeed a Catholic teaching.
St. Catherine:

"Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought … calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. …God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, …” (St. Catherine)

Mat 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Mar 7:7-9 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

 

[GottaGo12345678]

It appears to me Catholics are the ones who place a great deal of faith in knowledge as is repeatedly inferred that only the Catholic Church has knowledge to understand and interpret and its members are dependent on that knowledge for their salvation.

I believe what the Bible tells us is necessary for salvation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Ginger

Amen Sister!

No one can work their way to heaven; many have tried and continue to try; only to find out they were on the wrong road.

I love the Catholic people because they are made in Gods image, but I pray they will understand that legalism will never get them to heaven…that’s my personal and correct intepretation of both the Scripture and the practical reality of Catholicism. Believe me, I know first hand the struggles Catholics endure and all that is expected from them; it is difficult and unneccessary, for when the Son sets you free from the bondage you are now in; then you will be really free.

Can God use a person who is truly free? You bet He can!!!

Praise be to you Ginger and God bless all Catholics everywhere! Amen!

 

[GottaGo12345678]

Yes, that is what I’m saying.

Originally Posted by benedictus2
I am not digging dirt on Luther. So are you saying that Luther and the other fathers of the Protestant rebellion did not come up with Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura? These are doctrines not held to by the Church prior to Luther.

Ginger,

Are you saying that Sola Scriptura is not inherrant to the Bible? Many of the early church fathers used Scripture almost exclusively to combat herisies. No one says “Scripture Alone” verbatim, but it is implied in very implicit sense, almost explicitly.

Where else is God’s special revelation given to us other than Scripture?

Matt. 4:3-4 3 And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” 4 But He answered and said, “It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.”

Jesus certainly knew where everything was in regards to the Christian faith and practice.

 

[GottaGo12345678]

Ginger:

It is sad that you would mock the Church that Christ built. Your personal interpretation of Scripture flies in the face of 2000 years of teaching. You have forgotten where the Bible came from, and you seem to mock the very institution that lost hundreds of thousand of lives (literally) fighting to keep your right to worship Christ instead of singing the praises of Allah. Your sarcasm (as you keep laughing at the Church) is very sad to see considering how many people died for the Church that you seem to dismiss as funny. I hope to continue this conversation when you’ve reached a more mature level of adulthood.

He can’t help himself; the love of God only abides in those that have accepted Christ His way. So you must be patient and have pity on them.

Anyone who claims the Bible came from the Roman Catholic Church already proves they do not understand the work of the Holy Spirit, which is God. Therefore they also prove themselves not to be sons or heirs ofthe Most High God.

Also to say that 2000 years of teaching is also error on Catholic history; for the Catholic Church itself has evolved over time; look at the great schisms and also since the Vatican II where moderistic views have dramatically changed the face of the Catholic Church forever. Anyone to deny this is just plain; I don’t know what.

Someone once said somewhere…Ignorance is bliss and security; it is the Truth that messes everything up…leave me as I was.