E
estesbob
Guest
That you, Tanner?
- Status
G
GottaGo12345678
Guest
G
Ginger2
Guest
I think estesbob may be suggesting you are posing as someone other than your original sign-up.
Who is Tanner?
Catholics do that to me all the time. They send me PMs saying “they know who I really am”. and warn me it’s against rules to post under more than one name. lol
It strikes me as funny because Ginger is my real name and the only name I use online - anywhere. The “2” is at the end only because just plain “ginger” was already taken.
What is even funnier is that the Protestants they claim have so many striking differences are similar enough to think many different people are all one in the same person!!!
Just ignore it. It is not worth your time to deny false accusations. They will believe what they choose to believe.
G
Ginger2
Guest
Continuing to ask will not prompt me to come up with a new answer. I stick with the explanation found in the hoy Scriptures. If you don’t like it, take it up with God.
Certainly not! You should Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; or any other human being - not even the pope.
Well, therein lies the problem. The teachings of the Catholic Church have not been consistent with first century Christian faith. The Church has invented too many extra-biblical doctrines without any credible basis. Altho, even one man-made doctrine is too many.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Ginger, your original claim was that those Protestants who did not read the ‘correct’ interpretation (i.e. yours) knew the correct interpretation but willfully rejected it. Later you corrected this to a bland circular logic of “it says in Scripture, the Holy Spirit guides. If you approach in the right way, the Spirit will guide you to the correct interpretation.” When asked then how two people claiming to hear the Spirit interpret differently, you then said, “Well, the **context **will prove which one is correct.” When asked how then if both gave context one could tell which was correct, you then pretty much stated that since we were obviously not approaching things in the right way but were full of "self interpretation’ we just couldn’t understand the Bible. . .
But you still can’t give a real answer as to how Paul Protestant who argues for John 6 being figurative (and thus wrongly interpreting according to you) is reading the **same Scripture you do **and claims the same Spirit that you do. How can he, with Scripture and Spirit, be wrong? How, relying as you do solely on Scripture and one’s subjective experience of the Spirit, can you be sure your interpretation is right? How can he know his interpretation is wrong when Scripture and the Spirit tell him he is right?
Please, Ginger, tell us that. That is what we have been asking you all along. How can you know for sure that the Spirit speaking to you is the Holy Spirit? Look around you at all the Catholics and Orthodox and your fellow Protestants reading the same Scripture you do and all claiming to hear the same Spirit you do, and tell me how it is that the Spirit they hear is wrong and how you can know this for sure.
But you still can’t give a real answer as to how Paul Protestant who argues for John 6 being figurative (and thus wrongly interpreting according to you) is reading the **same Scripture you do **and claims the same Spirit that you do. How can he, with Scripture and Spirit, be wrong? How, relying as you do solely on Scripture and one’s subjective experience of the Spirit, can you be sure your interpretation is right? How can he know his interpretation is wrong when Scripture and the Spirit tell him he is right?
Please, Ginger, tell us that. That is what we have been asking you all along. How can you know for sure that the Spirit speaking to you is the Holy Spirit? Look around you at all the Catholics and Orthodox and your fellow Protestants reading the same Scripture you do and all claiming to hear the same Spirit you do, and tell me how it is that the Spirit they hear is wrong and how you can know this for sure.
A
AdrianP
Guest
Sign from God that St John Crysostom interpretation of Bible is revealed
full-of-grace-and-truth.blogspot.com/2008/11/divine-inspiration-and-st-john.html
Icon depicting the Divine inspiration of St. John Chrysostom: St. Proclos his disciple witnessing St. Paul speaking into St. John’s ear. Icon courtesy of www.eikonografos.com used with permission.
"Saint John [Chrysostom] was renowned for his explanations of the Holy Scriptures. He also interpreted the Epistles of Saint Paul, whom he admired greatly. In order to assure himself that the interpretation of the Epistles were correct, he asked God to offer him a sign.
At that same time, a nobleman had risen against Emperor Arcadius. The Emperor, in turn, confiscated all of the man’s possessions and threatened to execute him. The nobleman became desperate and decided to ask for Saint John’s assistance. When he arrived at the Patriarchate, Saint John could not offer him an audience immediately, but instructed him to return that evening. Saint John told the assistant priest, Proclos (who later succeeded Saint John as Patriarch), to show the nobleman to the Saint’s room when he arrived. That evening, the nobleman returned and Proclos went to inform the Patriarch of his arrival. The door to the room was shut, so Proclos looked through the keyhole. He saw Saint John sitting at his desk writing, with a bald-headed man, slightly bent, looking over his shoulder. Seeing this, Proclos returned to the nobleman and told him that the Patriarch was in conference. Proclos returned to the Patriarch’s room several times during the night, but the man was still talking with John. Thus the nobleman waited the entire night to see Saint John. Morning came and the Patriarch prepared to perform the orthros, realizing neither that the nobleman had waited all night for him, nor that Proclos had seen the vision.
That morning the nobleman returned to the Patriarchate since it was of the utmost importance for him to see the Patriach. Proclos went again to inform John of the nobleman’s arrival, but again saw the same man in the Patriarch;s room. John looked extremely interested in what the man was telling him. Proclos was bewildered on how the man was entering, since everyone had to come by him.
The nobleman returned for the fourth time and Proclos assured him that the Patriarch was alone, for he had made certain that no one passed without his knowledge. When Proclos went to the Patriarch’s room, he was shocked to find the same man still there. He returned to the nobleman and told him to go to his home for it was impossible for him to see John.
That third day, the Saint had remembered the nobleman and inquired about him. Proclos told John that the man had come three times, but each time, the Patriarch was busy talking to the same man. John asked Proclos whom he had seen in the room. Proclos told him that it looked as if it were the Apostle Paul, whose icon sat on the Saint’s desk. Joyously, Saint John realized that this was the sign he had asked for from God concerning his interpretations of the Apostle’s epistles. Thus, Saint John wrote The Fourteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul containing the explanation of the letters. This book is one of the greatest works in the writings of the Orthodox Church.
full-of-grace-and-truth.blogspot.com/2008/11/divine-inspiration-and-st-john.html
Icon depicting the Divine inspiration of St. John Chrysostom: St. Proclos his disciple witnessing St. Paul speaking into St. John’s ear. Icon courtesy of www.eikonografos.com used with permission.
"Saint John [Chrysostom] was renowned for his explanations of the Holy Scriptures. He also interpreted the Epistles of Saint Paul, whom he admired greatly. In order to assure himself that the interpretation of the Epistles were correct, he asked God to offer him a sign.
At that same time, a nobleman had risen against Emperor Arcadius. The Emperor, in turn, confiscated all of the man’s possessions and threatened to execute him. The nobleman became desperate and decided to ask for Saint John’s assistance. When he arrived at the Patriarchate, Saint John could not offer him an audience immediately, but instructed him to return that evening. Saint John told the assistant priest, Proclos (who later succeeded Saint John as Patriarch), to show the nobleman to the Saint’s room when he arrived. That evening, the nobleman returned and Proclos went to inform the Patriarch of his arrival. The door to the room was shut, so Proclos looked through the keyhole. He saw Saint John sitting at his desk writing, with a bald-headed man, slightly bent, looking over his shoulder. Seeing this, Proclos returned to the nobleman and told him that the Patriarch was in conference. Proclos returned to the Patriarch’s room several times during the night, but the man was still talking with John. Thus the nobleman waited the entire night to see Saint John. Morning came and the Patriarch prepared to perform the orthros, realizing neither that the nobleman had waited all night for him, nor that Proclos had seen the vision.
That morning the nobleman returned to the Patriarchate since it was of the utmost importance for him to see the Patriach. Proclos went again to inform John of the nobleman’s arrival, but again saw the same man in the Patriarch;s room. John looked extremely interested in what the man was telling him. Proclos was bewildered on how the man was entering, since everyone had to come by him.
The nobleman returned for the fourth time and Proclos assured him that the Patriarch was alone, for he had made certain that no one passed without his knowledge. When Proclos went to the Patriarch’s room, he was shocked to find the same man still there. He returned to the nobleman and told him to go to his home for it was impossible for him to see John.
That third day, the Saint had remembered the nobleman and inquired about him. Proclos told John that the man had come three times, but each time, the Patriarch was busy talking to the same man. John asked Proclos whom he had seen in the room. Proclos told him that it looked as if it were the Apostle Paul, whose icon sat on the Saint’s desk. Joyously, Saint John realized that this was the sign he had asked for from God concerning his interpretations of the Apostle’s epistles. Thus, Saint John wrote The Fourteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul containing the explanation of the letters. This book is one of the greatest works in the writings of the Orthodox Church.
G
Ginger2
Guest
I don’t know why you can’t seem to understand plain English. Some people know full well what the Bible says, but choose to reject the message because they don’t like what it says. Simple as that.
But I never said all people who follow false religious teaching are doing so knowing what the Bible says. That’s just what you wish I had said so you can falsely accuse me of changing my mind.
Something you should consider is, there is nothing wrong with someone changing their mind if they discover something new that warrants the change. What is wrong is when someone is shown the truth, but refuses to accept it because they don’t want to admit they didn’t know everything from the start. It’s called false pride.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
I do understand plain English. I even understand fancy English.
So, please, whether you choose plain or fancy, answer the question. How does your “Scripture and Spirit” Protestant know for certain that the Scripture passage he interprets under the guidance of the Holy Spirit is in fact the correct interpretation, since we have Protestant Paul saying John 6 is figurative and Protestant Paula saying John 6 is literal.
Both use Scripture, both in context, both claim the Spirit.
So, please, whether you choose plain or fancy, answer the question. How does your “Scripture and Spirit” Protestant know for certain that the Scripture passage he interprets under the guidance of the Holy Spirit is in fact the correct interpretation, since we have Protestant Paul saying John 6 is figurative and Protestant Paula saying John 6 is literal.
Both use Scripture, both in context, both claim the Spirit.
G
Ginger2
Guest
GottaGo12345678,
I am saying the Catholic Church’s definition of SS is a false doctrine.
Catholics have expressed they believe SS means all knowledge is contained in the Bible.
Someone even refused to answer a question I asked because he claimed the answer is in historical documents but not in the Bible, therefore he said I wouldn’t believe it anyway (how ridiculous
)Not everything is written in the Holy Scriptures. I’m sure you agree with that. But everything thing that God deemed necessary for humans to know about Him and our eternal salvation is indeed found within the Divine Word of God. And I’ll bet you agree with that, also.
G
Ginger2
Guest
I have shown you what God has told us in the Bible about why people come up with differing ideas concerning the same Scripture.
I went back to the beginning of this thread to find the first few responses.
See Post #'s 3, 27, 111, …
That is what the Scriptures tell us. If you don’t like it take it up with God. It’s His plan, not mine.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Yes, I know what you said.
I still want you to tell me how a person can** know** his/her interpretation is correct.
From what you’re saying, Paul Protestant, reading Scripture, in context, and praying sincerely to the Holy Spirit, and hearing from the Spirit that John 6 is ‘figurative’ is either willfully ignoring the TRUE teaching because he’d rather believe the other, and thus is not listening to the spirit at all, or else. . .or else what?
The Spirit does not teach against Himself.
From what I understand you to say, at some point Paul Protestant, if he is reading Scripture and praying to the Spirit, will ‘get’ the correct interpretation. If, therefore, Paul Protestant goes on to preach/teach or accept anything other than the correct interpretation, it’s because Paul chose not to accept the truth.
I do think that most of us who differ with you, Ginger (I don’t disagree with you on the Real Presence but I do on other things), have not experienced this, however.
Meaning, I have not heard the Spirit say to me, “this position in Catholicism is really false, you know”, and responded, "Ye gods, spirit. While you are quite correct I, in my false pride and benighted arrogance, will chose instead to ignore your clear truth and continue the false doctrine which I prefer.’
On the contrary, the Spirit and Scripture continue to speak to me in support of the Catholic teachings.
Why should I–or other Christians–listen to your claim that the Spirit gave you the ‘correct’ understanding? How do you know your Spirit is correct?
I still want you to tell me how a person can** know** his/her interpretation is correct.
From what you’re saying, Paul Protestant, reading Scripture, in context, and praying sincerely to the Holy Spirit, and hearing from the Spirit that John 6 is ‘figurative’ is either willfully ignoring the TRUE teaching because he’d rather believe the other, and thus is not listening to the spirit at all, or else. . .or else what?
The Spirit does not teach against Himself.
From what I understand you to say, at some point Paul Protestant, if he is reading Scripture and praying to the Spirit, will ‘get’ the correct interpretation. If, therefore, Paul Protestant goes on to preach/teach or accept anything other than the correct interpretation, it’s because Paul chose not to accept the truth.
I do think that most of us who differ with you, Ginger (I don’t disagree with you on the Real Presence but I do on other things), have not experienced this, however.
Meaning, I have not heard the Spirit say to me, “this position in Catholicism is really false, you know”, and responded, "Ye gods, spirit. While you are quite correct I, in my false pride and benighted arrogance, will chose instead to ignore your clear truth and continue the false doctrine which I prefer.’
On the contrary, the Spirit and Scripture continue to speak to me in support of the Catholic teachings.
Why should I–or other Christians–listen to your claim that the Spirit gave you the ‘correct’ understanding? How do you know your Spirit is correct?
S
shoewindow3000
Guest
Amen Sister!
No one can work their way to heaven; many have tried and continue to try; only to find out they were on the wrong road.
I love the Catholic people because they are made in Gods image, but I pray they will understand that legalism will never get them to heaven…that’s my personal and correct intepretation of both the Scripture and the practical reality of Catholicism. Believe me, I know first hand the struggles Catholics endure and all that is expected from them; it is difficult and unnecessary, for when the Son sets you free from the bondage you are now in; then you will be really free.
Can God use a person who is truly free? You bet He can!!!
Praise be to you Ginger and God bless all Catholics everywhere! Amen!
The Catholic Church does not teach that we are saved by good works. We understand perfectly well that it is only because of Christ that works have any value.
**Nowhere in the bible does it state faith “alone” justifies. It was unheard of before the 16th century!**
Code:
** Some Verses to Disprove the "Faith Alone" Doctrine**‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
** Matthew 19:16-21**
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
“Which ones?” the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’"
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
1 Corinthians 3:8
The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.
**1 Corinthians 13:2 **
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
James 2:17
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
James 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
James 2:20-21
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, my brothers, labor all the more to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall.
(Darn it, I guess even OUR LORD was fooled by what you call “legalism.” Good thing all-knowing Luther came to help God understand…
)
D
Des
Guest
Not explicitly, no. And what you just said up there is what most of us consider SS to be which is all that is necessary for Salvation is contained within the covers and left up to ‘only’ fallible intepreters which is false of course. And anyone who feels they can change their minds once, can do so again…and again…and again without any visible authority to say STOP ALREADY!!!Not everything is written in the Holy Scriptures. I’m sure you agree with that. But everything thing that God deemed necessary for humans to know about Him and our eternal salvation is indeed found within the Divine Word of God. And I’ll bet you agree with that, also.
They have zero assurance of what they have just read is 100 percent correct.
D
Des
Guest
Amen! Amen!
D
Des
Guest
You are a fool if you seriously believe that ‘EVERY Word of God’ was written down in ink and paper. Impossible. His Word is not limited to a book only. If the written form was so necessarily urgent for future Christians, we would have seen one command out of Jesus’ mouth to write but all we read is for them to preach and teach. Nothing about writing. The Apostles being inspired to write at times was not for individuals to interpret themselves but given to the Churches so they could read it in light of what their Bishops and Priests have already been taught. Unless of course you suggest they hand copied thousands of the epistles and letters and just simply gave them out to the faithful.
S
shoewindow3000
Guest
The Word of God is not a Thing- The Word of God is a SOMEBODY!
-Fr. John Corapi
G
Ginger2
Guest
POST # 3:
John4:
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
Correct.
I’m not asking you to. I’m showing you what the Scriptures clearly state and you are making your decision whether or not to believe the Scriptures when they disagree with the CCC.
This is a waste of time, because you will choose to believe and disbelieve whatever you want. You have already decided to disbelieve my testimony.
G
Ginger2
Guest
I don’t believe anyone has said that. Only that God has ensured His children have access to everything we need to know concerning our relationship with Him.You are a fool if you seriously believe that ‘EVERY Word of God’ was written down in ink and paper. …
Several times Jesus said “The Kingdom of Heaven is like…” using different analogies.
If Jesus said, “The Kingdom of Heaven is like…” using yet one new analogy to a disciple who didn’t write it down,…
How does that change anything?
Would that change the nature of God?
Of Jesus?
Would my soul be lost if the Catholic Church knew about this one other time, and I didn’t?
Is our eternal salvation based on knowing everything there could possibly be to know about God? (If it is, then everyone is lost as the Scriptures say humans do not know everything) But luckily, the Bible also says, we don’t need to!!!
Since this seems to be your strongest argument, please name one thing directly related to our salvation that was omitted from the Scriptures and is necessary for us to know to be saved. Then prove that an Apostle really taught this doctrine as true and it is not simply a late invention of the RC.
Thanks, I’ll be very interested to hear your answer. If you can prove your assertions, I will convert - seriously!
Ginger
G
Ginger2
Guest
Once again “faith alone” as defined by Catholics is a false doctrine. You are arguing with those who agree with you. The reason there seems to be a disagreement is because Catholics are talking about a false doctrine they made up based on misunderstanding caused by the attacks and false accusation made against Luther.
Luther didn’t add a word to the Scriptures thereby creating a new doctrine. (This was explained in a previous post.)
While some Protestants may mistakenly believe that believing God exists is a free pass to sin, it is not a doctrine of any true Christian Church. The same is true for Catholics who mistakenly believe confession is a free pass to sin.
The Protestant belief on salvation is found clearly spelled out in Scriptures: Saved by Grace thru faith, not by works so that no one can boast.
Both Protestants and Catholics teach we cannot work/earn our way into heaven.
G
Ginger2
Guest
Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.Gal.3:5-6, “Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
James 2:18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”Faith in Christ is our justification, and our faith is proven by our works.
- Status