Personal interpretation of Scripture and Authority of Church

[BibleAnswer]

BibleAnswer,

why do you (at least seem to me to) conclude that since there are tares in the (visible) Church that the tares rule there…or that the evil one who sowed them rules there?

***thank you for the question. Who is it that guides you in a church, the priest, that pastur, the deacon, etc. These are the people who teach you and give the sermons. If you teacher is a tare, [and only God can discern a heart] then you run the risk of being taught by that tare. Nobody can know who is and who isn’t. Who sowed the tares, Devil, the Devil sowed the tares. As we have already learned from a verse i cited, the son of perdition, that man of sin, the abomination of desolation shall sit on the throne of His temple, and by reason of transgression, be given a host. The host would be tares. If you fear you might be a tare, then you would leave the place where Satan is sitting, where the son of perdition, the man of sin the beast, the abomination of desolation sits. You would not want to run the risk of maybe being taught by one of these tares.

(by the way, I believe the Catholic understanding of the visible Church is that it is The Catholic Church, and I believe there is evidence to back this up.)

that is discriminatory. Every external representaion of organized religion, serves God, as they all believe in the God man jesus and this serves Christs ministry one way or another. Satan does not discriminate either. Where ever a gathering of people gather to worship, Satan will be there to sow the tares amongs the wheat.

Did any one spread misinformation in the Churches that the Apostles were shepherding? (i.e. the ones that the epistles are written to)?

In Rev 7,8 the seven churches were destroyed. They were all God fearing, they all had the Word ministered to them and Paul wrote a letter to them giving them the opportunity to repent from there ways of teaching false doctrine. These churches were around when Jesus ministered and still they had a hard time discerning the truth. thus they were under Gods judgment and were destroyed. Why do you think any particular chuch will fare better then these. These seven churches represent all churches.*

In your opinion, when did the Church of the Apostles stop being under control by God (I’m not conceding that it did)?

as stated in scripture, The beast killed the two witnesses when there work was done. Thus a great falling away happened when the Holy Spirit fled the TEMPLE or church and now presides in the Word.

Can’t you see that you have twisted that Scripture in Hebrews terribly (about not forsaking the gathering of “ourselves”)??

But the scripture says exatcly, to not forsake the assembly of YOURSELVES. This is cleare evidence that Yourself means one. In english language Yourself means singular, one person, you. Foresaking the ASSEMBLY OF YOURSELF, is YOU AND THE WORD.
Tont forsake that, forsaking that would be to not read on your own, but only read while in church. the holy spirit left church, so you would recieve no meaning of truth whill in church, it is piontless. the holy spirit is not there to apply it to your heart. By raeding yourself at home on your own you begin to see the truth.

It is apparent to me that you have warped that to fit your own Theology, your own interpretation of the Bible. If you claim that those who spread misinformation are tares, are you claiming that you, who claim to be wheat, and also all the rest of the wheat, are infallible?

**I am a layman, I only began to intensely study by myself 8 or 9 months ago. Everyday, hour after hour. Even at work like now. I make plenty of mistakes and always learn. However a spiritual truth is a spiritual truth, and it does not change, and I know a few of them, and these are the ones I am able to share with you. I cant understand another side because nobody wants to argue the point, using spiritual methods, by comparing a verse to a verse.,by trying to understand a parable. If you dont do that, then you are on the WRONG PATH to understanding, and you wont be able to disuade me. The truth is the truth, weather people see it or not, it is there, and i will preach it. somebody will see it and recognise it and be thankfull to be led to a correct path of understanding.

I am not anything special. just an intense desire to learn and spread the word.******

Also, where do you celebrate the Eucharist and with whom?

I dont celebrate Eucharist. I take the body of Christ whenever I read His Word and the Holy Spirit guides me to a new understanding or truth. A ceremony is not the body of Christ, it is bread. A ceremony is a work and will do nothing to get you saved or bring you closer to Christ, ecept in your own mind, God saves through Grace alone.***

 

[greggy53]

the Bible that identifies with the Old testament Hebrew text and the New testament Greek text. The “extra” books that are in the Roman Catholic bible, which they call the “Apocrypha” or “hidden books” were written one or two hundred years before the time of Christ, are not part of the Holy Canon. they are not the Word of God.

How about it Bibleanswer, why isn’t the so-called “Apocrypha” the word of God?..Lets see your evidence. I’ve shown you our evidence for it. It’s been a part of the Cannon since the Cannon was first put together in 387 AD. Your version without it has been in print now for 100 years or so…whats up with that??

 

[wmscott]

Not quite,

I know it to be truth, because it connects with the rest of the bible my friend.

if you want to TEST SOMETHING in the bible. THEN TEST IT AGAINST THE RULES OFFERED BY GOD.

Compare scripture with scripture and Christ spoke in parables

TEST ANYTHING AGAINST ITS SPIRITUAL TRUTH. THERE IS ONLY ONE,

I assertain that many of the teachings or beliefs you have, can disconect from the truth one way or the other. Where something most definately clicks, yet this little bit over here is just going to be figured out later cause it doesnt fit.

Everything fits, and everything is written in a way so as you can see, but not understand, you can listen, but you cant really hear,.

I am hear to strenghten my conviction, to learn, to teach and to be humbled. You judgment is false my friend. I am preaching what i know to be truth.

please by all means counter my argument, we will see who connects the dots spiritually and who basses there truths based off of church teachings. Which is a fallacy because church is corraptable. The bible is not.

And here in lies the problem, as you state "I am preaching what I know to be truth.” You have inadvertently told on yourself, you are practicing fallible personal interpretation of Sacred Scripture. You have no teaching authority for validation other that your fallible personal interpretation. You state that the church is corruptible; therefore, you are accusing Christ of being corruptible, as the Church is the body of Christ. This too is also biblical.

I have been reading your posts and you seriously need some Pastoral guidance. Therefore, since you are big on the Bible, and using yours, the KJV, 2Peter1:19-21 reads a follows:

19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

In context:

Ver. 19. And we have the surer word of prophecy, or to make our testimonies and preaching of Christ more firm. The revelations of God made to the prophets, and contained in the holy Scriptures, give us of all others the greatest assurance. Though the mysteries in themselves remain obscure and incomprehensible, the motive of our belief is divine authority. If our testimony be suspicious, we have what you will certainly allow, the testimony of the prophets: attend then to the prophets as to a lamp that illumines a dark place, till the bright day of a more lively faith begins to illumine you, and the day-star arises in your heart: till this faith, which is like the day-star, give you a perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ. It is by the divine oracles you will acquire this knowledge, provided you peruse them with proper dispositions.

Ver. 20. No prophecy of the scripture is made by private interpretation; or, as the Protestants translate it from the Greek, is of any private interpretation, i.e. is not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit. The Scriptures cannot be properly expounded by private spirit or fancy, but by the same spirit wherewith they were written, which is resident in the Church.

Ver. 21. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time. This is to show that they are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment, because every part of the holy Scriptures is delivered to us by the divine spirit of God, wherewith the men were inspired who wrote them; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the spirit of God, which he left, and promised to his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Our adversaries may perhaps tell us, that we also interpret prophecies and Scriptures; we do so; but we do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, they without it.

You come here and profess bible only, post after post, and when confronted with biblical evidence to your grievous errors, you twist, distort, and misinterpret everything.

We have a prayer we say when praying the Rosary, it goes like this: Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy.
I have prayed this prayer on your behalf.

 

[cides23]

BibleAnswer:
The WORD of GOD is not something but somebody and his name is Jesus. he is speaks to us through scripture and through the church the two cannot be seperated and scripture clearly tells us that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth and he who hears you hears me and he who rejects you rejects me. yes there will be a fallen away, and when read Christian history you always see a fallen away but Christ’s church still remains because of his promise that the gates of hell will never prevail.

Yes we are saved by the grace of GOD but his grace gives us faith and strenth to do his will because not all who say LORD, LORD will be saved but he who does the will of GOD and to do the will of GOD is to do all he askes for us to do.

you said you don’t celebrate the Eucharist but only recieve his word in the BIBLE, but that reminds me of the two man and the road to Emmaus. Yes Jesus open scripture to them and their hearts were on fire, but they only recognized him in the Breaking of the Bread and there is where we receive his fullness, not only in word but his True BOdy and BLood!!

THis has always been the teaching of Christianity.

It’s kind of sad that protestants think so negative about the Catholic Church as if we just listen to the church and not the bible, but me i love reading the bible and can’t help to see that i come to conclusion w/the same understanding as what i’m being taught as a Catholic, and I do envoke the Holy Spirit to guide me and help me open my heart… but i know i will be rejected because i don’t come to the same different interpretation as protestants…

 

[Arandur]

Not quite,

I know it to be truth, because it connects with the rest of the bible my friend.

This got us no where. Most other Christians don’t agree with you, even ones who use your same standard. Myriad interpretations exist about how things “connect with the rest of the Bible.” How is yours any better? Oh right, your circular, self-authorized reasoning again:

I am preaching what i know to be truth.

if you want to TEST SOMETHING in the bible. THEN TEST IT AGAINST THE RULES OFFERED BY GOD.

I do. By the rules given by God to His Church which existed long before the Bible and indeed wrote it, and indeed wrote into the Bible some of those instructions, such as Peter’s repeated admonitions about personal interpretation, Timothy’s description of the Church (the Pillar and Foundation of Truth), and the various other places where it is clear the Church is given teaching authority, that we must not reject the Gospel they preached, that we must hold to their teachings and traditions, etc.

But if you will reject even what the Bible says about all that, and what the Church says, you’re still logically left with nothing during those first few centuries, so I really don’t see what else you think God gave as “rules” beyond them that would operate during those NT-less years.

TEST ANYTHING AGAINST ITS SPIRITUAL TRUTH. THERE IS ONLY ONE,

Truth is very deep. “Both/and” is a formula that often applies.

Where something most definately clicks, yet this little bit over here is just going to be figured out later cause it doesnt fit.

I am Catholic in part because the Church holds the most complete and consistent, verifiable and self-supported understanding of all meaning in life–which is no surprise, since it is the pillar and foundation of truth.

please by all means counter my argument, we will see who connects the dots spiritually and who basses there truths based off of church teachings. Which is a fallacy because church is corraptable. The bible is not.

We’re not there yet. I’m not convinced you’ll entertain anything that doesn’t come out of your own mind; you have given no standard by which to have a discussion seeking truth.

I am curious as to how you think the Bible is not corruptible (despite translation errors, copy errors, and time), but the Church is. What guarantee did God ever give to Scripture that was not made in greater degree to the Church?

 

[LionHeart777]

And under what Authority did they do this?

??

I use the Catholic Canon

NOTE: IN POST #138 BIBLEANSWERS INCLUDED HIS RESPONSES TO MY QUESTIONS IN QUOTES: MY WORDS WERE ONLY:

[Adressed to] BibleAnswer, [by LionHeart777]

why do you (at least seem to me to) conclude that since there are tares in the (visible) Church that the tares rule there…or that the evil one who sowed them rules there?

(by the way, I believe the Catholic understanding of the visible Church is that it is The Catholic Church, and I believe there is evidence to back this up.)

Did any one spread misinformation in the Churches that the Apostles were shepherding? (i.e. the ones that the epistles are written to)?

In your opinion, when did the Church of the Apostles stop being under control by God (I’m not conceding that it did)?

Can’t you see that you have twisted that Scripture in Hebrews terribly (about not forsaking the gathering of “ourselves”)??

It is apparent to me that you have warped that to fit your own Theology, your own interpretation of the Bible. If you claim that those who spread misinformation are tares, are you claiming that you, who claim to be wheat, and also all the rest of the wheat, are infallible?

Also, where do you celebrate the Eucharist and with whom?

 

[BibleAnswer]

How about it Bibleanswer, why isn’t the so-called “Apocrypha” the word of God?..Lets see your evidence. I’ve shown you our evidence for it. It’s been a part of the Cannon since the Cannon was first put together in 387 AD. Your version without it has been in print now for 100 years or so…whats up with that??

Not quite, the King James Bible was concieved in 1604 and was pblished in 1611

that is only 399 years

So you 199 years off.

Secondly, there is an Apocrypha in the apendix section of the King James Version, This is included in the bible as a resource and learning material, however is NOT HOLY CANON, IS NOT INSPIRED BY GOD.

Honestly buddy, I couldn’t tell you one way or the other, i am not as educated about all this as you would think. My sole authority is the King james bible because it was derived from the original Hebrew, the original Greek, the translation is the most accurate and the closest to the original. The Apocrypha, does not jive with the totallity of the bible. It introduces concepts and principals that are not found any where else in the bible, all thousand plus pages. So becaue the concept was obviosly derived from man, such as purgatory, no where does the bible mention purpagoty, purgatory is an alltoghther man made invention. For example. If I were to believe in purgatory, this would be a doctrine that the bible did not introduce to me, thusly if i believed in it, i would be elevating myself above God becaue i can assume to know what God really meant, when he forgot to mention purgatory and what it means. Then i would be under gods Wrath, just like the seven churches in rev.

why do you believe in purgatory. Dont you believe that Christ dieing for you is sufficient. How come the thief was saved and was never baptised or performed confession or ate the body of Christ. You cant anser this reasonably without further study of the bible. Everything clicks into place.

This is why there is no purgatory. Because when you die, you die. Your soul ceases to be, it is destroyed, annhilalatted. If you are not saved that is, you go into the ground and that is it for you. a dead person cannot feel pain. our soul can not feel pain. it just ceases to be.

If you were reborn again, saved. your soul is allready payed for, there is not purgatory, your soul goes to heaven, to abrahams bossum, to be with God, to walk with Christ,

Just as Christ said to the thief on the the cross

THIs day you shall surely walk with me.

The thief was reborn, he had a new resurected soal, because we are born spiritually dead through adam.

He didn’t have to wait, he didn’t have to perform a baptism, sacrament, or confesion. Gods grace saved him, that day

 

[LionHeart777]

BibleAnswer,

how long have you been a Christian for?

also, Hebrews was not written in English therefore your analysis of the English isn’t much help to your argument.

Christ said “DO THIS is rememberance of me” (emphasis mine)

w/o providing analysis of the Greek which gives credence to the Catholic (historical) understanding, it is enough to say that this is a command. Whether you believe it is merely symbolic (false) or in transubstantiation (correct) it is still a command that is to be obeyed. It was being done in Corinth as you will see if you peak at Paul’s epistles to them. Was Paul a tare? Obviously not.

Annhilism, an erronius view which you are promoting, can be refuted by both Scripture and Tradition.

 

[estesbob]

Not quite, the King James Bible was concieved in 1604 and was pblished in 1611

that is only 399 years

So you 199 years off.

Here is the Title Page of the original King James Bible.



Did you notice all those pictures? You said that pictures such as these constituted idoloatry. Are you comfortable using a Bible put together by idolatrors?

 

[cides23]

Not quite, the King James Bible was concieved in 1604 and was pblished in 1611

that is only 399 years

So you 199 years off.

Secondly, there is an Apocrypha in the apendix section of the King James Version, This is included in the bible as a resource and learning material, however is NOT HOLY CANON, IS NOT INSPIRED BY GOD.

Honestly buddy, I couldn’t tell you one way or the other, i am not as educated about all this as you would think. My sole authority is the King james bible because it was derived from the original Hebrew, the original Greek, the translation is the most accurate and the closest to the original. The Apocrypha, does not jive with the totallity of the bible. It introduces concepts and principals that are not found any where else in the bible, all thousand plus pages. So becaue the concept was obviosly derived from man, such as purgatory, no where does the bible mention purpagoty, purgatory is an alltoghther man made invention. For example. If I were to believe in purgatory, this would be a doctrine that the bible did not introduce to me, thusly if i believed in it, i would be elevating myself above God becaue i can assume to know what God really meant, when he forgot to mention purgatory and what it means. Then i would be under gods Wrath, just like the seven churches in rev.

why do you believe in purgatory. Dont you believe that Christ dieing for you is sufficient. How come the thief was saved and was never baptised or performed confession or ate the body of Christ. You cant anser this reasonably without further study of the bible. Everything clicks into place.

This is why there is no purgatory. Because when you die, you die. Your soul ceases to be, it is destroyed, annhilalatted. If you are not saved that is, you go into the ground and that is it for you. a dead person cannot feel pain. our soul can not feel pain. it just ceases to be.

If you were reborn again, saved. your soul is allready payed for, there is not purgatory, your soul goes to heaven, to abrahams bossum, to be with God, to walk with Christ,

Just as Christ said to the thief on the the cross

THIs day you shall surely walk with me.

The thief was reborn, he had a new resurected soal, because we are born spiritually dead through adam.

He didn’t have to wait, he didn’t have to perform a baptism, sacrament, or confesion. Gods grace saved him, that day

When was Purgatory invented? Please give us date and writings

Soul is destroyed, annihilated? that sounds like Jehovah Witness Theology…

Question, one who claims to be born again but then falls in to sin and sins, and sins, is he still payed for and will go to heaven? So why did in Hebrews it say to strive for holiness for with out no man can see GOD…

 

[Cachonga]

dpgreen:

781 + 242 = 1023 Catholic denominations? What hat did you pull that one out of? This sounds like desperate “apologetics” to me.

If you would go back a little bit you will see that I got this from the exact same source Roman Catholics use to claim there are over 33,000 protestant denominations. Check your source (World Christian Encyclopedia).

greggy53:

Yes, consistantly teaching the same truths for 2000 years…Again, where is your 2nd century evidence to support your belief? Surely, The real Christians of that time period were not silent?.

When your earliest citation is a spurious writing from the middle of the 2nd century, how can you claim it to be a “consistent teaching for 2000 years”? BTW – for the record, I do not deny that Mary may have been bodily assumed into heaven. My position is that I should not be told I have to believe this in order to be in right standing with the Church, especially since there is no Biblical basis for this belief. To make it a dogma without Biblical support, I believe, makes this a tradition of men, not a Sacred Tradition!

greggy53:

I’m not implying anything. It’s very plainly written:“Whatsoever you bind on earth…”

Then I would ask for a simple “Yes” or “No” clarification – is it your belief that, based on the “binding and loosing” scripture, “If the Church says something is true, then God makes it true."?

greggy53:

Don’t apologize to me, just think about what you are saying about God’s Church.

I apologize for apologizing. I am trying to civil as well as honest. I would think that it is obvious that I do not believe the Roman Catholic Church is what it claims to be (otherwise, I’d still be Catholic).

wmscott:

He got his numbers from the World Christian Encyclopedia, however he has grossly misinterpreted what is it saying. I guess this is a pattern in the interprtation department.

Very good! Now apply that same research into the number of non-Catholic denominations and you’ll find there are nowhere near 33,000!

wmscott:

I had to open an answer book to get you this info. A partial lineup includes Chick Publications, Mission to Catholics International, Lumen Productions, Research and Education Foundation, Osterhus Publishing House, Christians United for Reformation (CURE), Harvest House, and Bob Jones University Press. Combined they turn out more anti-Catholic tracts, magazines, and books than ever before—millions of copies each year.

I would also highly recommend aomin.org (James White has debated many Catholic apologists (as well as Mormon, Jehova’s Witnesses, atheists, Muslims, etc…), and written many good books). I would suggest you avoid Chick Publications (they are very popular with King James Onlyists, and are not entirely accurate in their literature).

greggy53:

You Protestants who rely so heavily on the Bible don’t realize that you don’t even posses the whole Bible!. You folks miss out on so much.

And so there are also twenty-two books of the Old Testament; that is, five of Moses, eight of the prophets, nine of the Hagiographa, though some include Ruth and Kinoth (Lamentations) amongst the Hagiographa, and think that these books ought to be reckoned separately; we should thus have twenty-four books of the old law. And these the Apocalypse of John represents by the twenty-four elders, who adore the Lamb, and with downcast looks offer their crowns, while in their presence stand the four living creatures with eyes before and behind, that is, looking to the past and the future, and with unwearied voice crying, Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, who wast, and art, and art to come.
This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a “helmeted” introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is not found in our list must be placed amongst the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus, the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees I have found to be Hebrew, the second is Greek, as can be proved from the very style. (NPNF2-06. Jerome: The Principal Works of St. Jerome). This is from Jerome’s preface to the Books of Samuel and Kings in his translation of the scriptures from Hebrew/Greek into Latin ( found here).

ejb21:

I just now saw your question from way back in post #8.

That would be “apart from Scripture, how can you KNOW if a tradition is man made or not?” I can see where you would consider it a moot question. After all, the Magisterium defines and interprets both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. So where does the Magisterium get this authority? Isn’t it from the very things it defines and interprets? Sounds like a circular argument to me (I’ve heard it described a bit differently as a “spiral” argument, but it’s still circular). I admit my interpretation of Scripture could be wrong. I would also suggest that your decision to trust in the “infallible” Magisterium is just as fallible as my decision to trust in the Scriptures.
LionHeat777:

I have heard the same, maybe my previous post about Luther removing these needs correction. I believe he did however, relegate them to a non-Scripture satus. I think I have also heard that Calvin did away w/ them completely. Any one have any sources? i should check them.

As previously shown above, Jerome did not accept the Apocrypha as canonical. This opinion was held by many people in the Church all the way to Cardinal Cajetan (he’s the guy that interviewed Luther). I believe the general idea was that these books were good for reading and edification, but not to be taken as authoritative in matters of faith or doctrine.

<continued…>

 

[Cachonga]

greggy53:

Why is the Douay-Rheims Bible not reliable?

This was translated from the Latin Vulgate, which was translated from Greek. I’m not certain if the Latin Vulgate Old Testament was translated from the Hebrew or from the Greek translation (LXX). As we all know (hopefully), things can get lost in translation. This doesn’t necessarily make the Douay-Rheims unreliable, but I would suggest it may not be the best translation.

FYI – BibleAnswer appears to be a follower of Harold Camping and his heresy. James White is currently on day 2 of a debate with Mr. Camping on Iron Sharpens Iron (you can listen to yesterdays debate here. Today’s recording will be added later today. There is also an article here. I think there will also be 2 more days (one day with James White taking questions from callers and another with Mr. Camping taking questions from callers).

 

[LionHeart777]

The thief was reborn, he had a new resurected soal, because we are born spiritually dead through adam.

He didn’t have to wait, he didn’t have to perform a baptism, sacrament, or confesion. Gods grace saved him, that day

You are right that God’s grace saved him and that he did not undergo any Sacrament. I used to use this verse as “proof” against Baptismal Regeneration. It wasn’t until I learned that the early Church (and Scripture*) really taught otherwise that I was humbled and changed my opinion. “Baptism now saves us”* “You must be born of water and the Spirit.”*

You just gave a good example one of those ‘exceptional cases.’ It’s been a while since I read this article (catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901chap.asp), and I don’t know if the author mentioned John the Baptist in there but… remember John the Baptist. Scripture says that he was “filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb” (I’m coming from memory w/ my Scripture verses so the verses I use may not be word for word–I trust you can refer back to them.) Is John one of those ‘exceptional cases’? I for one believe so, as most of us are not Spirit filled from the womb of our mothers.

 

[greggy53]

Not quite, the King James Bible was concieved in 1604 and was pblished in 1611

And the Catholic Scrpitures are 1200 years older than that!. Our Bible was translated from the original Greek and Hebrew to the Latin Vulgate in the 4th century. Your Bible is based on our Bible like itor not.

Secondly, there is an Apocrypha in the apendix section of the King James Version, This is included in the bible as a resource and learning material, however is NOT HOLY CANON, IS NOT INSPIRED BY GOD.

The vast majority of Prodestant Bible makers stopped putting the so-called “Apocrapha” in their bibles over a hundred years ago. Why? who knows. Maybe becuase doctrines like Purgatory are found in these scriptures?

Honestly buddy, I couldn’t tell you one way or the other, i am not as educated about all this as you would think.

To be honest with you I don’t think it’s a matter of education as much as it is inspiriation, or lack thereof. You can’t isolate yourself from the Christian community like you have and not get lost. Some of your Protestant friends on this forum have tried to tell you this as well. I hope you listen and go to Church next Sunday, and take heart, God saves Protestants too!

why do you believe in purgatory. Dont you believe that Christ dieing for you is sufficient. How come the thief was saved and was never baptised or performed confession or ate the body of Christ. You cant anser this reasonably without further study of the bible. Everything clicks into place.

Well, the bible doesn’t say the thief on the cross was “saved”. Jesus told him that he would be with him in “paradise”. He didn’t say heaven either.
The Douay - Rheims Bible says this about that:
“In paradise… That is, in the happy state of rest, joy, and peace everlasting. Christ was pleased, by a special privilege, to reward the faith and confession of the penitent thief, with a full discharge of all his sins, both as to the guilt and punishment; and to introduce him immediately after death into the happy society of the saints, whose limbo, that is, the place of their confinement, was now made a paradise by our Lord’s going thither”

This is why there is no purgatory. Because when you die, you die. Your soul ceases to be, it is destroyed, annhilalatted. If you are not saved that is, you go into the ground and that is it for you. a dead person cannot feel pain. our soul can not feel pain. it just ceases to be…

There is ample scriptural evidence for the existance of Purgatory, as well as the teaching of many Saints for 2000 years… The Church teaches it and thats good enough for the Christian that knows that the Church and Christ are one.

 

[LionHeart777]

…Jerome did not accept the Apocrypha as canonical.

thanks Cachonga for the sources in your last post. I do believe that Jerome considered some of the Deuterocanon as Canonical, like the longer versions of two of the Books in the Protestant Canon (I forget the names.) I think Jimmy Akin pointed this out on that debate with James White I referred to earlier–or I read it on a forum or tract here.

 

[BibleAnswer]

You are right that God’s grace saved him and that he did not undergo any Sacrament. I used to use this verse as “proof” against Baptismal Regeneration. It wasn’t until I learned that the early Church (and Scripture*) really taught otherwise that I was humbled and changed my opinion. “Baptism now saves us”* “You must be born of water and the Spirit.”*

You just gave a good example of an ‘exceptional case.’ It’s been a while since I read this article (catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901chap.asp), and I don’t know if the author mentioned John the Baptist in there but… remember John the Baptist. Scripture says that he was “filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb” (I’m coming from memory w/ my Scripture verses so the verses I use may not be word for word–I trust you can refer back to them.) Is John an ‘exceptional case’? I believe so, as most of us are not Spirit filled from the womb of our mothers.

Okay,

well first of all a person has to realize, that whenever the bible is speaking of water, of sprinking it is refering to the Word, to Scripture which is the Word, and to the Holy Spirit.

We are saved by water and spirit. the water is the Word of God[symbolism, parabolic language] Spirit is the Holy spirit… We are saved by our spiritual, the Holy spirit.

that is all Gods work, not ours. Nothing else saves you

And faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God.

The water sprinkled on the nations used all throughout the bible, is refering to the Word, Christ is the Word made flesh. Scripture is the Word of paper, fine, but the Word is the Word.

If you cant recognize what simpal metaphoric words represent, then you can never grasp the meaning of a verse,

So you didnt prove your point, and you proved mine. you are saved by the Word of God and Spirit, which is what God is. Spirit.

and yes, to the guy above, give me any verse, and i gaurentee it will seem new too you when i explain it, only because certain words will have new meanings.

for example Hell, is death.

Substitute death or grave whenever you see the word and the meaning of the whole verse changes.

This is why purgatory was invented. Because the concept of hell was mininterpreted.

this is not what i made up.

sheol is the word for hell in hebrew
hades is the word for hell in greek

look at the context, and you will see that every time. well over 300 cases of the words hell being used, that it is talking about total destrution. being under Gods wrath.

Sodom and Gamorah was destroyed by the everlasting fire of Gods Wrath, similar language you see,
Yet, does Sodom stil burn, is it still on fire. no it burned for a few hours, and then was tinder.

Gods wrath is everlasting, he fire is everlasting, meaning once He destroys you, you are destroyed to never come back. Like the soul.

so if the church cant even understand the truth of what hell is, then everything they teach concerning hell is wrong beacue hell is not HELL, hell is Death. So they made purgatory to explain death.

Water is the word of god, every verse you have taught thinking water meant something other than the word of truth, the Word of life, the word of God, then you would never never never never understand the verse you are trying to prove me wrong with.

sorry.

Now i can rebutt, and say YIOUUUUUUU will never see my side because YOUUUUU will never admit that the bible is spiritual and that certian words are metaphores and that if you apply the knowledge you learn you would see a different meaning. YOUUUU are so pridefull that you cant admit this enough to go check it out for yourself.

 

[estesbob]

Now i can rebutt, and say YIOUUUUUUU will never see my side because YOUUUUU will never admit that the bible is spiritual and that certian words are metaphores and that if you apply the knowledge you learn you would see a different meaning. YOUUUU are so pridefull that you cant admit this enough to go check it out for yourself.

We cant rebutt you becuase of the rules you have set up

1. We have to use your translation of Scripture
2. we have to accpet your personal interpretation of Scripture.

Thus there is no discussion-just a lecture by you .

 

[cides23]

Okay,

well first of all a person has to realize, that whenever the bible is speaking of water, of sprinking it is refering to the Word, to Scripture which is the Word, and to the Holy Spirit.

We are saved by water and spirit. the water is the Word of God[symbolism, parabolic language] Spirit is the Holy spirit… We are saved by our spiritual, the Holy spirit.

that is all Gods work, not ours. Nothing else saves you

And faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God.

The water sprinkled on the nations used all throughout the bible, is refering to the Word, Christ is the Word made flesh. Scripture is the Word of paper, fine, but the Word is the Word.

If you cant recognize what simpal metaphoric words represent, then you can never grasp the meaning of a verse,

So you didnt prove your point, and you proved mine. you are saved by the Word of God and Spirit, which is what God is. Spirit.

and yes, to the guy above, give me any verse, and i gaurentee it will seem new too you when i explain it, only because certain words will have new meanings.

for example Hell, is death.

Substitute death or grave whenever you see the word and the meaning of the whole verse changes.

This is why purgatory was invented. Because the concept of hell was mininterpreted.

this is not what i made up.

sheol is the word for hell in hebrew
hades is the word for hell in greek

look at the context, and you will see that every time. well over 300 cases of the words hell being used, that it is talking about total destrution. being under Gods wrath.

Sodom and Gamorah was destroyed by the everlasting fire of Gods Wrath, similar language you see,
Yet, does Sodom stil burn, is it still on fire. no it burned for a few hours, and then was tinder.

Gods wrath is everlasting, he fire is everlasting, meaning once He destroys you, you are destroyed to never come back. Like the soul.

so if the church cant even understand the truth of what hell is, then everything they teach concerning hell is wrong beacue hell is not HELL, hell is Death. So they made purgatory to explain death.

Water is the word of god, every verse you have taught thinking water meant something other than the word of truth, the Word of life, the word of God, then you would never never never never understand the verse you are trying to prove me wrong with.

sorry.

Now i can rebutt, and say YIOUUUUUUU will never see my side because YOUUUUU will never admit that the bible is spiritual and that certian words are metaphores and that if you apply the knowledge you learn you would see a different meaning. YOUUUU are so pridefull that you cant admit this enough to go check it out for yourself.

WHen was purgatory invented? give me date and by who

WOW Jesus lied to us because the Holy Spirit did not guide us to the whole truth because your teaching has never been taught before… i’m glad you came to share this with us because all this time i’ve been reading all these saints from 1st century to present who has never taught this… We Catholics and protestants have gotten then wrong… except for the Jehovah Witness they come close…

WOW so this grinding of teeth to everlasting fire is not the hell every Christian knows of it to be, this everlasting Fire where the devil is sent is no such thing… poor St Augustine, St Thomas Aquinas, st Francis, St claire, St Polycarp, etc… they were all mislead and not guided by the Holy Spirit because they all taught different then BIBLEANSWER…

May he is the 2nd coming who knows how to open up scripture to us? 2000 years all wrong, why didn’t the HOly SPIRIT teach this to us for all these years… i hope to speak to him face to face and ask him what happen? why didn’t you teach this to all the Christians before BIBLEANSWER was born?

 

[LionHeart777]

The Bible is “God breathed” so of course it’s Spiritual. However, when you rip it [Scripture] from the context of the teaching of the Church historically, you are almost certain to end up in error. The Bible uses all sorts of sorts of literary devices, hyperbole, metaphor…Not everything is a metaphor though. Your views seem to be very gnostic as someone else pointed out.

Are you a new convert by chance?

I’m sorry for being uncharitable, I am tempted to sometimes just win a debate. Are you open to Truth. Are you open to the possibility that some of your interpretations might be wrong? If so, there is room for talk.

Check the Church Fathers, the successors of the Apostles, and you will see that they have a different interpretation of what “water and Spirit” means. I believe, that the teaching has been consistent. Examine the way in which the early Church fathers like Ireneaus refuted those who were in error.

 

[BibleAnswer]

May he is the 2nd coming who knows how to open up scripture to us? 2000 years all wrong, why didn’t the HOly SPIRIT teach this to us for all these years… i hope to speak to him face to face and ask him what happen? why didn’t you teach this to all the Christians before BIBLEANSWER was born?

haha, i understand where you are comeing.

I felt the same way, being a apart of a church, when i first discovered the truth from the bible. It is disheartening to hear, I know, yet doesn’t change the fact that everything i said can be proven in the bible.

Sense when doesn’t a person comapre scripture with scripture. When a person does this, you recognize patterns. such as water refering to the Word of God

You cant just arbitrarily assign a meaning or value to a word and then read a verse and understand it. It doenst work that way.

Yesterday i was listeneing to catholic answers, Jimmy Akkon was giving a respons to question concergning something.

He gives the answer that Water symbolizes chaos and evil.

This is ABSOLUTELY ONE HUNDRED PERCETN SCARY WRONG. Jimmy Akkon, a leading Catholic spokesman, is teaching that the WATER is CHAOS and evil and death.

The WATER IS THE WORD OF GOD…

Jimmy Akon is essentially teaching people wrong doctrine based off of HIS UNDERSTANDING.

everybody has that right. But you can TEST ANY TRUTH by reading the spiritual truth.

When i do this, i can clearly see that Water is not death and choas, But Life, truth and an anchor.

Scary scary scary thought to know that all of church teaches the same thing. I had to depart the church do see this truth myself. Now i see it, now i share it, now i tell you.

You can test this proof yourself by conparing the context of water with the countless times it is used.

the same with hell, or sheol, or hades, or gehennon. All representations of being uder Gods Wrath.

Gods Wrath is eternal.

Gods Wrath is Death.

Gods love, his truth, is Life.