Personal interpretation of Scripture and Authority of Church

[BibleAnswer]

Hi, This is a good question.

I will offer my story just as a way to express how I feel about this question as a starting off point.

My father is Christian, he read the bible, studied it, then I came along, my dad gave me his old bible with a cool little personal note, basically I love you, may you find the LORD and may He guide you in life, it was cool. Anyway…

So we use to go to church, Christian church, as a way to praise God, with like minded people, to give a donation in support of our local congregation, and to participate in being near Christ. I think alot of us are brought in this way, with a parent who believes, then teaches their children, then are exposed to church.

I was baptized, I can recall being an infant and being baptized. We have pictures to prove it. and then I got older, met a girl, a Catholic girl, and fell in love. There was no difference to me. I was only happy to tell my parents that I met an awesome girl, and she goes to church too. She invited me along with her parents, I was so happy to go and be with her and to be at church also praising God with the girl I loved.

So I started to go to Catholic church. It was awesome. It was like the churches I went with my Dad, only it was more… i dont know, Regal, more authentic, more Holy I guess. Everything was the same. The communion, a tithe, the preacher was now a priest, but he gave the same sermon basically. It was fine in my book. There were some prayers that everybody seem to know as they stood up, me next to my girl, and they all prayed in unison without looking into a book for the words. I always felt nervous, cause I would close my eyes in prayer, yet not be able to say the words, except for amen. Nobody said anything to me though. So I guess it wasn’t a big deal that I didn’t know that words yet.

I met another girl, A Mormon, like three years later, She was beautiful, I loved her deeply and I was happy to go to church with her. I went with her and her family, and everything seemed just the same, yet at the same time it seemed more… i dont know, humble, more associated with certain Scripture. Then I was told about the book of Mormon, I didn’t understand why i never heard of the book of Mormon, but the way they explained it, it seemed as if this was a hidden secret and why didn’t the world know about this. Why doesn’t everybody know that once Jesus left the Apostles in Acts 1 that He actually didn’t ascend into heaven, but that He actually flew to America to leave plates with scripture on them. So I was fascinated and was with the girl at the church for over a year. I was all ready to be baptised.

Let me hurry this up…
There have been many churches. Mostly Catholic. For the most part, a church is a church, [excluding Mormons, because they preach a false gospel, the book of Mormon, I think we all can agree on that.] and the Catholic Church is by far my church of choice.

Then… I started to have some questions postulate in my head. I was fascinated with Hell, and what it was. About purgatory, about what this meant when Jesus said this, and what does this mean, and this mean, and this mean. I am curious, you know, It’s the scientific obsessive organized approach, and I am built that way. That is how I fully grasp something.

The answers I got were ambiguous at best, Never concrete, NEVER NEVER CONCRETE. But many answer, indeed most answers, were straight from scripture, and explained so it made perfect sense, it was read to me, and explained for what it was. Exactly how it was worded, was how it was explained to me. There was never NEVER NEVER NEVER any spiritual answers given, NEVER did a priest tell me that Christ spoke in parables. and so when A parable was explained to me, it was ALWAYS A MORAL lesson that apparently it taught. MORAL LESSONS. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA My DAD TEACHES ME MORALS AND VALUES, derived from the bible. Basic Basic stuff we all get from the 10 commandments,

I Never knew there was a spiritual meaning to the bible. never never never. I never was told, that there is a deeper meaning, that just what the story says on its surface. That is why It was always taught as a MORAL LESSON.

So I started to read the bible for REALS on my own. And I noticed certain words used over and over and over. I wrote those down and the verse, and then looked at my sheet of paper, and saw a pattern. Something different from Moral Lessons, But a Spiritual Lesson. That infact, the Book is a Spiritual book about How to obtain Salvation, Not about how to live a Moral Life. Let me rephrase that. I learned that the whole Book is a Parable. I learned that a Parable is a earthly story with a spiritual meaning. The earthy story I learned, is how to live a moral life, the spiritual meaning however is something entirely different.

That is why a protestant, though i would not associate with any denomination, but that is why a person who reads the bible alone, in THE ONLY WAY to discern, and finally understand TRUTH.

 

[Arandur]

In that previous message I was referring to the rich man in Luke who refused Lazarus the beggar. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks po18

However, YOUUUUUUUU read a verse and look at it for what it says on top.

While, IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII compare scripture with scripture, so as to discern what a parable is saying.

YOUUUUUUUU give me answers based off of the church understanding, and those answers never dig deeper than what the face of a certain verse is saying on top.

IIIIIIIIIIIII compare the context of a word to decipher what God means by it. Then I apply the knowledge to the Word.

So who has it backwards. I speak of the spiritual meaning, of the deeper true meaning, as is my job to do, knowing what i know, I cant just sit on it, I need to teach.

Wow. WOW. Take some time and get to know the Catholic Church. We’re usually criticized for taking things way too far, for asserting too many levels of truth, too much depth, reading spiritual truth far deeper than face value! It’s the fundamentalists that want to take things just on face value and reject anything deeper.

Wow, this is just rich. Explore the concepts of the Trinity, the Eucharist or any of the Sacraments, Mary, the Saints, the nature of the Church as Body and Bride of Christ, prophecy, gifts of the Holy Spirit, sin, works of mercy, and on and on. Pick up a Catechism. Read Aquinas or Augustine or any of the popes or saints. Take a look at these with some honesty and then see if you can make that claim. Then see who’s looking deeper. The Catholic Church has almost 2000 years and billions of people worth more insight, more depth into Scripture than anything you have yet even begun to fathom.

While you all rebuke me, never mind the fact that i follow the rule of comparing scripture with scripture.

What rule? Where? The Bereans? They compared the words of the apostles, the Church, to the OT. That was comparing the Church to Scripture. Both NT and OT tell us to look to the Church, the guarantees are with the Church. Find me a guarantee given in Scriputre to Scripture that is not given in greater capacity to the Church.

but you all have no interest in at least testing what i have to teach. Like i am the devil.

Because the Bible tells us not to accept any other Gospel other than what the apostles, the Church, taught, to hold fast to their teachings and traditions. It told us to reject any other gospel even if it come from an angel. Who’s following Scripture there? How can we accept your new gospel, your contrary ideas, and remain true to Scripture? No, you speak with the voice of false prophecy, as clearly warned in Scripture, for your ideas were not taught by the early Church, do not even hold when checked against Scripture.

The bible also speaks of a time when the true believers will be mocked and scorned.

This is happeneing in our lifetime.

It happens in all times. Why do you think Catholics were mocked and scorned from the time Jesus sent them forth to today, with virulent anti-Catholics even today? And yet our faith endured whole and glorious and growing, endured better than any other institution ever in the history of the world. Satan destroys, does he not? And man’s creation decays, does it not? Then how could the Catholic Church possibly be the result of anything other than Divine Institution and preservation?

 

[po18guy]

The answers I got were ambiguous at best, Never concrete, NEVER NEVER CONCRETE. But many answer, indeed most answers, were straight from scripture, and explained so it made perfect sense, it was read to me, and explained for what it was. Exactly how it was worded, was how it was explained to me. There was never NEVER NEVER NEVER any spiritual answers given, NEVER did a priest tell me that Christ spoke in parables. and so when A parable was explained to me, it was ALWAYS A MORAL lesson that apparently it taught. MORAL LESSONS. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA My DAD TEACHES ME MORALS AND VALUES, derived from the bible. Basic Basic stuff we all get from the 10 commandments,.

You and Catholics are in the same boat here. So much of God is a mystery. The Church is full of mysteries, because a simple, created being (man) cannot possibly come to understand his creator - the Creator being infinitely superior. As to your search for the spiritual, I am sorry if the spirituality of the Catholic Church was never explained or shown to you. I assure you, brother to brother, that there is a bottomless well of spirituality in the Church that Christ founded. I tend to be a spiritual type, and I can neither leave the Catholic Church nor enter anywhere else. I am home. I pray that you will give it another chance, with the leading of your brothers and sisters here.

 

[Ginger2]

Two Popes determined the DRB has errors and set to the task of making corrections. It has been revised.

Here is an excerpt of their decision:
“In realizing this revision, the old text of the Vulgate edition was taken into consideration word for word, namely, whenever the original texts are accurately rendered, such as they are found in modern critical editions; however the text was prudently improved, whenever it departs from them or interprets them less correctly.”

The complete text can be read at
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JPTHESAU.HTM
Apostolic Constitution SCRIPTURARUM THESAURUS
Pope John Paul II

(I am optimistic other popes in the future will correct the rest of the errors)

I might add the errors were corrected to match Protestant Bibles.

Ginger

 

[BibleAnswer]

I think you mean the unnamed “rich man”. Lazarus was the poor beggar at the rich man’s gate. Lazarus was being comforted at the bosom of Abraham.

The Rich man and Lazarus, Luke 16
The parable describes two individuals. The rich man has all of the joys and comforts this present world can bring, but he is not saved. The poor man, Lazarus, has none of the good things of this world, but he is a saved man. Finally, both men die. The rich man is buried, and Lazarus is carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22). To be in the bosom of Abraham is a picture of being in the highest blessing in the presence of God. To be buried is to be placed in the grave. The parable then continues with a conversation between the dead rich man and Abraham (GOD), who is in heaven. Remember, “grave” and “death” are the same thing as hell. Therefore, it is not incorrect to say that the rich man was in hell (Luke 16:23)

But you must understand, that lifting up his eyes and seeing Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom, and speaking to Abraham, are all hypothetical. That is, God has set up a completely imaginary tableau, or a three dimensional picture, or in other words a parable, in order to convey spiritual truth. These truths include important doctrines such as the following.
#1 The rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus with a drop of water to cool his tongue (Luke 16:24). There is NO MERCY or GRACE to those who have died unsaved.
#2 There is a great gulf between heaven and hell. Heaven is eternal life. Hell is death forevermore. Never, never will those who are dead ever come to life again.
#3 The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers because he thought that such a miracle will cause them to become believers. The truth is, they have Moses and the prophets, the BIBLE. If they will not believe the Bible, then they will not believe even if they witness some great miracle.
#4 The rich man is tormented in this flame. The Greek word that is translated “tormented” is used only in verse 24, in verse 25 (“thou art tormented”), in Luke 2:48, and in Acts 20:38. The “flame” emphasizes the rich man is being punished by God, who is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). The word “torment,” which is defined by its usage in Acts 20:38 and Luke 2:48, indicates the nature and character of the torment he is experiencing. Now we will look carefully at this word and its usage in these two verses.
Acts 20:38: Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.
Luke 2:48: And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? Behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

In both of these verses, the word that is translated as “tormented” in Luke 16 is translated as “sorrowing.” This sorrowing has nothing to do with physical pain. It is the sorrow of not seeing a loved one again. The rich man was in torment because he was sorrowing that he could never again have the joys and comforts he had experienced in his life on earth. While Lazarus was safe and secure with the greatest blessings forevermore.

In other words, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus teaches us nothing at all about eternal pain in a place called hell. It is teaching us about the penalty of losing all the blessings of this life, and gaining none of the blessings of eternal life.

I hope this helps you understand this parable a little more. I tried to give you the meaning of the parable by using spiritual language like the bible tells us to do. this is not a task to do either. It is only a matter of knowing how to properly do it. Please I would love to help, I really hope my little study shows you that indeed, there have been misunderstandings of parables and verses.

 

[LionHeart777]

#1 2Tim 3 is the scripture that tells us to comapre precept to precept, line to line, line to line, verse to verse.

That is where it originated from

#2 While Christ was here on earth, ministering, He was here as the Word made flesh. He as all the attributes and fullness of the Godhead. He was exercising His AUTHORITY over every kind of possible situation. He is in control of the weather, of disease, of being posessed, as LEGION was.

Christ had complete authority over everthing and everything he did was to prove the truth about spiritual salvation. It wasn’t the mud, or the spit, it was the mans FAITH in Christ, or rather, Christs faith in the man that cured his blindness. this is a spiritual message, that only through Christ, meaning the Word, can one open there spiritual eyes, to see the Truth, that would be Christ and the Word, because the Truth saves you. Christ was the Truth. The mans belief saved his sight, not the LORD Spitting into mud and whiping it away, this was only a picture, of the spiritual meaning.

Just like everything else in the bible.

It was Christ who healed the man and it is Christ who saves.

Here is St. Ireneaus on the Prophecy I believe you were speaking about…

You will also see a picture of a Church with (what appear to me to be) wheat and tares (i.e. "…Those…who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts…) You will see him talk about those on the outside who “…depart from the primitive succession…”

(newadvent.org/fathers/0103426.htm) (accessed 7/ 29/ 09.)

 

[wmscott]

Bibleanswer:

You state “but that is why a person who reads the bible alone, in THE ONLY WAY to discern, and finally understand TRUTH.” so using the bible alone, how do you reconcile the following?

1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2 Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t
Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men
2Pet 1:20 - no prophecy is a matter of private interpretation
2Pet 3:15-16 - Paul’s letters can be difficult to grasp & interpret
1Pet 1:25 - God’s eternal word = word preached to you
Rom 10:17 - faith come from what is heard
1Cor 15:1-2 - being saved if you hold fast to the word I preached
Mk 16:15 - go to the whole world, proclaim gospel to every creature
Mt 23:2-3 - chair of Moses; observe whatever they tell you

 

[BibleAnswer]

Before we get off track, how about you tell me what you think of this study on Lazarus, I can’t have a dialogue if we go all over the map. This was my last comment. So lets discuss this before we move onto other things.

The Rich man and Lazarus, Luke 16
The parable describes two individuals. The rich man has all of the joys and comforts this present world can bring, but he is not saved. The poor man, Lazarus, has none of the good things of this world, but he is a saved man. Finally, both men die. The rich man is buried, and Lazarus is carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22). To be in the bosom of Abraham is a picture of being in the highest blessing in the presence of God. To be buried is to be placed in the grave. The parable then continues with a conversation between the dead rich man and Abraham (GOD), who is in heaven. Remember, “grave” and “death” are the same thing as hell. Therefore, it is not incorrect to say that the rich man was in hell (Luke 16:23)

But you must understand, that lifting up his eyes and seeing Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom, and speaking to Abraham, are all hypothetical. That is, God has set up a completely imaginary tableau, or a three dimensional picture, or in other words a parable, in order to convey spiritual truth. These truths include important doctrines such as the following.
#1 The rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus with a drop of water to cool his tongue (Luke 16:24). There is NO MERCY or GRACE to those who have died unsaved.
#2 There is a great gulf between heaven and hell. Heaven is eternal life. Hell is death forevermore. Never, never will those who are dead ever come to life again.
#3 The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers because he thought that such a miracle will cause them to become believers. The truth is, they have Moses and the prophets, the BIBLE. If they will not believe the Bible, then they will not believe even if they witness some great miracle.
#4 The rich man is tormented in this flame. The Greek word that is translated “tormented” is used only in verse 24, in verse 25 (“thou art tormented”), in Luke 2:48, and in Acts 20:38. The “flame” emphasizes the rich man is being punished by God, who is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). The word “torment,” which is defined by its usage in Acts 20:38 and Luke 2:48, indicates the nature and character of the torment he is experiencing. Now we will look carefully at this word and its usage in these two verses.
Acts 20:38: Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.
Luke 2:48: And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? Behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

In both of these verses, the word that is translated as “tormented” in Luke 16 is translated as “sorrowing.” This sorrowing has nothing to do with physical pain. It is the sorrow of not seeing a loved one again. The rich man was in torment because he was sorrowing that he could never again have the joys and comforts he had experienced in his life on earth. While Lazarus was safe and secure with the greatest blessings forevermore.

In other words, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus teaches us nothing at all about eternal pain in a place called hell. It is teaching us about the penalty of losing all the blessings of this life, and gaining none of the blessings of eternal life.

I hope this helps you understand this parable a little more. I tried to give you the meaning of the parable by using spiritual language like the bible tells us to do. this is not a task to do either. It is only a matter of knowing how to properly do it. Please I would love to help, I really hope my little study shows you that indeed, there have been misunderstandings of parables and verses.

 

[LionHeart777]

Admittedly I twisted his words to serve my purpose (sorry) but the whole read I believe would benefit the conversation.

 

[Arandur]

Before we get off track, how about you tell me what you think of this study on Lazarus, I can’t have a dialogue if we go all over the map. This was my last comment. So lets discuss this before we move onto other things.

The other guys weren’t involved in the Lazarus comment, and you missed my point about it and ignored my other comments.

My point in bringing up the story of the rich man and Lazarus was to demonstrate just one instance where souls who are not saved are not destroyed, but that there is existence still. There are others that come to mind, references to lakes of fire and torment, being better to not have been born, etc. And while upon rereading (as you could see from the Lazarus comment my memory on the passage was rusty), it wasn’t a clear example of purgatory, being pre-Resurrection in the first place, there are other references in the NT to it (being tested in fire and so forth).

My challenge to you was this: “Show anywhere in Scripture where it says the souls of those who are not saved are destroyed.”

What I spent much more time on, that you have dodged, is to focus still on how we can know truth, and just how it is that you think you know truth, as well responding to your accusations about the Church and how we come to know truth, and why we reject your false teachings. Go back and take a more careful look of those other posts; perhaps with this post pointing things out, they’ll make more sense to you.

 

[LionHeart777]

BibleAnswer,

what specific passage in 2 Timothy were you referring to?

I believe I misunderstood what Hermeneutics meant, regarding my post about Augustine being the originator.

 

[po18guy]

There is NO MERCY or GRACE to those who have died unsaved.

Well, there was no “salvation” at that time, as Christ had not suffered, died and risen yet. There was righteousness and justification, but not “salvation”. We are talking of the Mosaic covenant here.

#2 There is a great gulf between heaven and hell. Heaven is eternal life. Hell is death forevermore. Never, never will those who are dead ever come to life again.

Remember that the gates of Heaven were closed at that time. They were opened only when Jesus ascended. Eternal death is not eternal punishment. Are you talking “soul annihilation” here? Again, this is Jehovah’s Witnesses stuff.

#3 The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers because he thought that such a miracle will cause them to become believers.

What? Scripture clearly says that Lazarus was to convey a message to them. Also, Jesus even spoke for Abraham, saying “they will not believe, even though one should rise form the dead” Are you not interposing your Christian beliefs on the Old Testament here? They already believed in God, as did virtually all Jews. Were they justified by their actions toward the poor? That is the question.

The truth is, they have Moses and the prophets, the BIBLE.

Moses and the prophets were men, not a book that did not yet exist.

If they will not believe the Bible, then they will not believe even if they witness some great miracle.

Dude, you are stuck on the word “bible”. They had sacred scrolls in the temple, but certainly no canon, no bible. Word.

#4 The rich man is tormented in this flame. The Greek word that is translated “tormented” is used only in verse 24, in verse 25 (“thou art tormented”), in Luke 2:48, and in Acts 20:38. The “flame” emphasizes the rich man is being punished by God, who is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). The word “torment,” which is defined by its usage in Acts 20:38 and Luke 2:48,(Who decided this?) indicates the nature and character of the torment he is experiencing. Now we will look carefully at this word and its usage in these two verses.

You are grossly simplifying scripture by allowing word usage to be determined by other scribes in other times and in other contexts. This is dangerous!

In other words, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus teaches us nothing at all about eternal pain in a place called hell. It is teaching us about the penalty of losing all the blessings of this life, and gaining none of the blessings of eternal life.

You are Seventh Day Adventist or Jehovah’s Witness, then. You have made a huge assumption here. Talk about leaps of faith!

I hope this helps you understand this parable a little more. I tried to give you the meaning of the parable by using spiritual language like the bible tells us to do. this is not a task to do either. It is only a matter of knowing how to properly do it. Please I would love to help, I really hope my little study shows you that indeed, there have been misunderstandings of parables and verses.

Question #1: What is your authority for “teaching”, and why on earth do you think that we have not heard this teaching during mass? I assure you that we all have. Question #2: Why do you think that you have been “sent” to teach us, when we have priests, Bishops and Cardinals who can trace their hands-on ordinations back to one of the twelve? Your attitude seems arrogant and condescending, to put it bluntly.

You can easily start your own corner faith community, but your opinions are far from God’s revealed truth. I’m till praying for you, as you clearly love God and have read a lot of scripture, but you have completely ignored the authoritative Church which is protected from error by the leading of the Holy Spirit. You are certainly lead by a spirit - but which one? They are liars, you know, and “will lead even the elect astray, if that were possible”

 

[BibleAnswer]

BibleAnswer,

what specific passage in 2 Timothy were you referring to?

I believe I misunderstood what Hermeneutics meant, regarding my post about Augustine being the originator.

I was mistaken, I was thinking of a different verse, anyway, hear is the proof.

The verse that proves we need to compare scripture with scripture.

[Is 28:10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”

Verses that prove, the scripture is the only Authority, the Ultimate Authority.

[Psalm 119:40-48] Behold, I long for Your precepts; Revive me in Your righteousness. Let Your mercies come also to me, O LORD- Your salvation according to Your word. So shall I have an answer to him who reproaches me, For I trust in Your word. And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth, For I have hoped in Your ordinances. So shall I keep Your law continually, Forever and ever. And I will walk at liberty For I seek Your precepts. I will speak of Your testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed. And I will delight myself in Your commandments, Which I love. My hands also I will lift up to Your commandments, which I love, and I will meditate on Your statutes.

[Psalm 119:99-104] I have more understanding than all my teachers, for Your testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Your precepts. I have restrained my feet from every evil way, that I may keep Your word. I have not departed from Your judgments, for You Yourself have taught me. How sweet are Your words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth! Through Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.

[Psalm 119 :117-120] Hold me up, and I shall be safe, and I shall observe Your statutes continually. You reject all those who stray from Your statutes, For their deceit is falsehood. You put away all the wicked of the earth like dross; Therefore I love Your testimonies. My flesh trembles for fear of You, And I am afraid of Your judgments.

[Acts 17:11] These were more fair minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

[1 Ptr 2:2] As newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby.

[2Tim 2:15] Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[2Tim 3:14-17] But as for you, continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

For a person that reads the bible with the eye for understanding, and not just topical reading without understanding, then this is what God commands me to do.
[1Tim 4:6-7] If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. But reject profane and old wives fables, and exercise yourself rather to godliness

[2 Tim 4:2] Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

[2Tim 4:5] But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

However, this is the true reality, it is very sad, and consequently people are blinded from the truth.
[2Tim 3:1] But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come,

[2Tim 3:5] Having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

[2Tim 3:7] Always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[2Tim 4:3-4] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

 

[LionHeart777]

BibleAnswer,

There has to be an authority outside of Scripture for the Bible did not just fall out of the air. I have heard you say that God obviously used men in the process of forming the Canon… but these men had to have some kind of Authority to form a Canon… and they were led by the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Canon goes all the way back Church councils in Rome and Africa. The lists are extant if you care to see what books are included…you will see the Deutero’s in there.

Those versus in 2 Timothy could just as easily be thrown back at you…I would argue that it is you who do not have “sound doctrine.”

Regarding the Bereans, this is relevant:

(catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp)

Also, again as Akin pointed out on the Bible Answer Man debate, “Word” to Catholics is BOTH transmitted orally and written.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

The discussion about Mary’s perpetual virginity came back, of course, to the question of what individuals believe the Bible says, as distinct from what the Church teaches. This is, of course, the central issue in the Protestant schism - does the individual’s ability to read and interpret Scripture for himself trump the authority of the Church?

Catholics believe the preservation of the Scripture is itself an exercise of the authority of the Church, promised to and passed down by the Apostles. Protestants reject an infallibly authoritative Church in favor of infallible personal interpretation under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

This observation leads me to this question for those who reject the authority of the Church:
what’s your interpretation of Matthew 28:19-20, Luke 14:6, Matthew 16:18, 1 John 4:6?

Whether our Protestant brothers like it or not, the Bible canon IS a part of “THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH,” because the Church declared the Bible canon.

Philosophically, when a teaching of the Church outside of words in the Bible canon seem to disagree with the Bible canon, we have an apparent contradiction.

This is true in the case of the issue raised in your first sentence, Mary’s perpetual virginity. In effect, the Church’s teaching that there was no breach of Mary’s physical integrity, in giving birth, apparently squarely contradicts the verse in Luke that says that Mary was acting in accord with the dictate of the Lord when she made the poor person’s sacrifice for cleansing a mother of a newborn boy of the blood of childbirth.

So, I, a Catholic, see one Church teaching, a Bible verse, pointing to the left, and another Church teaching, a decree made in 649 A.D., pointing to the right.

Other Catholics here get into a big sweat and call me a “heretic” if I so much as mention my choice, at this time, to align myself with Contradictory Church Teaching #1. While the Church is the “interpreter” of the Bible, it does not have a veto power over it. Even the Church would not claim that.

 

[LionHeart777]

CONTINUED

Also, again as Akin pointed out on the Bible Answer Man debate, “Word” to Catholics is BOTH transmitted orally and written. (REPEATED FOR CONTEXT)

A case in point is Acts 10, and the conversion of Cornelius and his family:

"…Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

36The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

37That word, *, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.

43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word…" (Emphasis mine) (kingjamesbibleonline.org/Acts-Chapter-10/) (accessed 7/ 30/ 09).

Catholic apologists (at least 1) have pointed out that “Word” in Scripture can be oral. Do you think Peter is talking about Scrolls here? In fact, this may have been pointed out in that Aiken/ White debate I just referred to.

read this account in Eusebius regarding the Gospel of Mark:

“…And so greatly did the splendor of piety illumine the minds of Peter’s hearers that they were not satisfied with hearing once only, and were not content with the unwritten teaching of the divine Gospel, but with all sorts of entreaties they besought Mark, a follower of Peter, and the one whose Gospel is extant, that he would leave them a written monument of the doctrine which had been orally communicated to them. Nor did they cease until they had prevailed with the man, and had thus become the occasion of the written Gospel which bears the name of Mark…” (Emphasis Mine) (newadvent.org/fathers/250102.htm) (accessed 7/ 30/ 09)*

 

[Ginger2]

CONTINUED

Also, again as Akin pointed out on the Bible Answer Man debate, “Word” to Catholics is BOTH transmitted orally and written. (REPEATED FOR CONTEXT)

A case in point is Acts 10, and the conversion of Cornelius and his family:

I find your argument weak.

1. From the passage you quoted, what information did Peter convey to Cornelius and his family that is not found in the Gospels?

Your claim is Tradition is necessary because Jesus did and said many things not written in the Scriptures:
2. Name one thing Tradition teaches Jesus said or did that is not recorded in scripture.

Ginger

 

[cides23]

I find your argument weak.

1. From the passage you quoted, what information did Peter convey to Cornelius and his family that is not found in the Gospels?

Your claim is Tradition is necessary because Jesus did and said many things not written in the Scriptures:
2. Name one thing Tradition teaches Jesus said or did that is not recorded in scripture.

Ginger

1- The New Testament - - Jesus never said go and give people a bible and the bible will have a new testament that will have 27 books and they are all inspired by the Holy Spirit. But it was the Holy Spirit that inspired the church to choose the 27 books, no more and no less and that is not found in scripture.

1. The word Trinity to describe the nature of GOD.

 

[greggy53]

Two Popes determined the DRB has errors and set to the task of making corrections. It has been revised.

Here is an excerpt of their decision:
“In realizing this revision, the old text of the Vulgate edition was taken into consideration word for word, namely, whenever the original texts are accurately rendered, such as they are found in modern critical editions; however the text was prudently improved, whenever it departs from them or interprets them less correctly.”

The complete text can be read at
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JPTHESAU.HTM
Apostolic Constitution SCRIPTURARUM THESAURUS
Pope John Paul II

(I am optimistic other popes in the future will correct the rest of the errors)

I might add the errors were corrected to match Protestant Bibles.

Ginger

Grammatical errors, not errors in doctrine. Published in English 30 some odd years before the Protestants published the KJV. So if I understand you correctly then, that if grammatical errors render a translation un- trustworthy what Bible are you reading that contains no errors at all?. Don’t say the KJV because we all know that isn’t true. If you are honest about it you would admit that ANY Catholic Bible is un-trustworthy.

 

[Ginger2]

1- The New Testament - - Jesus never said go and give people a bible and the bible will have a new testament that will have 27 books and they are all inspired by the Holy Spirit. But it was the Holy Spirit that inspired the church to choose the 27 books, no more and no less and that is not found in scripture.

1. The word Trinity to describe the nature of GOD.

The word “homosexual” is not found in Scriptures, either. Are you suggesting no one knew about them until after the word “homosexual” was coined 1868?

The word “Trinity” is a word coined to help Christians define and understand the nature of God. While that word was not coined until after the entire NT was completed, the concept of the Triune God is found throughout the Bible - both Old and New Testaments.

We know about the Triune nature of God from the Holy Scriptures. The RC didn’t give us this knowledge, but rather Tertullian coined a word to describe this Triune nature and put down a heresy before it spread.

I might add the “three-in-one persons” description is a poor one as it confuses many into thinking Christians worship three gods instead of One.

Your example is mute since the concept of a Triune God has always been present in Scriptures

The Father is God (Phil. 1:2), Jesus is God (Titus 2:13), and the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4)

Would you like to try again?