Young children will often accept the teaching from an adult at face value, and that is to be expected of children. At some point in our learning and maturing, we need to question what we are being taught, and by who’s authority. Adults should no longer accept everything at face value. We’re living in a fallen world.
Since I’m a fallible sinner I can’t claim to infallibly know anything at all.
What does that even mean? The Apostles were technically the earliest Christians. This sentence is already proven wrong because of that. The Apostles could not have searched the Scriptures (well, not the New Testament anyway). Anyway, the Fathers did not search the Scriptures daily to see if things were right. They searched them for their own spiritual quest. With that said, I am sure they did check to make make sure it was what was handed down by the Apostles. But it was not for their own good, it was for the good of Christianity. That they may be in Truth.
We believe the Church is infallible because she actually is. I know that is begging the question hardcore, but that is the truth. We do not simply believe her infallible because of her own doing; we believe it because that was Christ’s promise. You cannot tell me one thing that is wrong with the Church. If you do, I will prove you wrong. (Not you personally, just in general.) We are the only ones who actually believe that the Holy Spirit can and does actually protect both written AND oral Tradition from untruth.
You didn’t answer my question. What did those who had no knowledge of scripture do? They had to rely on something if scripture wasn’t there for them, right? I think you’re giving the ancient society a lot of credit it doesn’t deserve. It’s not like they could go to the library and check out a scroll for 2 weeks and get charged a nickel a day late charges. So what did those who had no knowledge of scripture do before there was a bible? You can’t answer that question because it totally blows SS on its head. Since Christianity is roughly 2000 years old and the bible is roughly 1500-1600 years old, people had to look to something in that 400 years or so other than the Bible, right? When did the shift take place to people looking to whatever they looked to as the source for their rule of faith to looking at the Bible alone, considering that for perhaps the first 1200-1300 years of the Bible’s existence hardly anyone could read? I can tell you when that happened, and it just so happens to coincide with the Protestant Reformation. Funny how that worked, huh?
You have used your own fallible reasoning and your own fallible interpretation of Scripture to reason (fallibly) that the apostle Peter was the first in an unbroken succession of popes. Who told you that these things were true? By who’s authority did they teach?
I’m happy to see that you’re reasoning all of this out! These are great questions. I agree with you that since we’re living in a fallen and imperfect world, there will be big problems with a “Scripture alone” view that REQUIRES each individual to be literate and to have access to Scripture. But that is an extreme view that I have never held.
We did not attribute that infallibility to anybody. God did. Now, if you attributed infallibility to a Protestant sect, then perhaps you have a point. But, even then it is not sinful to trust someone. In any case, Harvard and the Catholic Church are separate entities. One is a God-ordained institution and the other is a human-ordained institution. (Oddly enough it was started up and affiliated with Unitarians.)
Amen! We finally agree on something!
It’s possible, then, that Catholic doctrine is correct.
It is one thing to trust in God’s promise (the gates of hell will not overcome it) and something else to praise, glorify, and worship a religion. How would your attitudes toward your religion be any different if you were a Muslim extremist? I’m not trying to be disrespectful here, I’m just pointing out that the worshiping of a religion is idolotry…which generally results in extreme intolerance toward others of different beliefs, which, in turn, generally results in lots of other bad things. I’m not saying that you, personally, are intolerant or anything, I’m just saying that lots of bad things come from the worshiping of a religion. It is both dangerous and sinful.
Fallible people can’t possibly have the same kind of certainty that God has. The reason why we don’t all agree on these, and other issues is because we are all sinners. The RCC here on earth is composed of sinners too. For this reason, RC’s are divided on these and other issues, just as Protestants are.
It is my belief that most people–even atheists, know when they are doing something sinful. God has written His law upon our hearts. Even atheists have a conscience.
Agreed
This one is easy… Ahem… I DO NOT KILL FOR MY BELIEFS! That should sum it up.
Yes you are. You give no rationale in supposing that I or anybody “worships a religion.” Well, with that said, the Church is tolerant of religions, just not tolerant of anything untrue. All religions could have some truth, whether distorted or not.
I agree. What is your point? Tell me something since you know more about my worship practices than I do. Do I worship God or the Church? Since you claim the Bible is infallible, do you worship the Bible or God? (The Bible only represents the Word of God, but is NOT actually the Word of God. It is only a set of books protected from untruth by the Holy Spirit.)
Individual people cannot, but a God-ordained institution can give people the certainty they need. That is if and only if one trusts that God will not let them go astray. Going astray includes being in untruth.
The reason why people do not believe the Catholic Church is because they do not fully trust that God can or will protect them from untruth. They think that they themselves have the power to interpret the Bible for themselves in order that they may at least think they are in Truth. That has not worked out too well for Protestants. I trust the Church because I trust God’s promise through the Holy Spirit.
Agreed. Tradition, Scriptures and reality all confirm this important Truth.
True, that has not worked out too well for Protestants. So why do you think it will work out any better for RC’s?
Neither do most Muslims.
Have you been reading what Catholics have been writing here? It is MOSTLY devotion, honor, praise, and worship of their religion. Are you unbiased enough to see that?
If you love God, then you really don’t need to worry about what other people may think. None of it matters one bit. Just continue to love God and worship Him, and only Him.
I worship God.
I didn’t understand this.
No, loving your mother doesn’t have to entail worshiping her.
My observations about the worshiping of a religion are not intended to be directed personally to you. I’m only saying that, based on what most RC’s have been posting here, I’ve observed an attitude of religion worship that that is not much different from that of Muslim extremists. It has been claimed here, that fallible minds can obtain infallible teachings from an infallible religion. None of these prideful assertions have ever been proven to be POSSIBLE much less true. Yet these things are accepted as fact!
Heh. This is very Catholic of you to say, Doggg.
And how is it that this infallible source of truth, the Scriptures, came to be in the hands of Christians?
That seems to be what you’re saying.
(See your quote below)
Actually, what they searched was the OT, so if you go by the Bible alone and follow the example of the Bereans, they searched only the OT.
Your faith in God cannot be separated from the Church. You serve Jesus without a Body. It’s incomplete.