Personal interpretation

[Doggg]

Correct me if I am wrong Wanner:

Wanner was talking about eternal Truths (doctrine) that are not supposed to be personally interpreted. We can all look for ourselves and find Scriptural foundations to any and all doctrine, whether implicit or explicit. It is Tradition that sheds light to Scriptures for these eternal Truths.

Then why read the bible?

 

[Doggg]

My point was that you speak of the Bible the exact same way as we speak about our Church. If you are going to claim that we worship the religion, then you are admitting you worship the Bible.

I can live with your accusation against me, that I worship the bible. Of course it is a false accusation, but I’m not going to lose sleep over it. You are making your false accusation because you have no way of defending what you are asserting about the alleged authority of the Catholic Church. Believe me, I’ve come across this kind of tactic many times! It doesn’t bother me at all.

Well, know that you are wrong here also. You do not give God or people much credit. You seem like an agnostic that we cannot know 100% what is true. The religion is not what is infallible, Christ’s Body, the Catholic Church is. If you can tell me one wrong doctrine in the Church, then we will prove that you are wrong.

By the grace of God, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we can have the truth in spite of our own fallible reasoning, fallible interpretation of words, and fallible logic. It has nothing to do with an infallible religion, infallible church, or infallible Magisterium. It is all about God’s grace and His infallibility.

 

[PRmerger]

By the grace of God, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we can have the truth in spite of our own fallible reasoning, fallible interpretation of words, and fallible logic. It has nothing to do with an infallible religion, infallible church, or infallible Magisterium. ** It is all about God’s grace and His infallibility**.

Well, of course it is, Doggg. This is a statement on which Catholics and non are both agreed.

However, you haven’t yet articulated how it is that God’s grace and His infallibility are conveyed to you.

You seem to have not thought this paradigm through.

Does His truth come to you through some thoughts you have? Through your dreams? Do you just know by osmosis? Or do you get His teachings from a church? And from a pastor?

If it’s the last 2, then how does this church/pastor get its truth? From osmosis?

Or was there an authority which God used to convey this Truth.

What you are saying about God’s grace and infalliblity is similar to someone saying, “God is the creator of human beings!” While that is, of course, true, human beings do not appear magically. God uses humans–a mother and a father-- for His purpose.

Just like God uses the Holy Mother Church. And if God is infallible, then He provides an infallible source of His Grace…the Catholic Church.

 

[gtrenewed]

Dogg, I am rejoining thread after posting early on. I have read much of this and have gotten turned around. Could you please answer the following so I know how to proceed:

1. Do you believe in God the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
2. Do you believe in Jesus Christ , his only begotten Son, our Lord?
3. Do you believe Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary?
4. Do you believe Jesus suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried?
5. Do you believe Jesus descended into hell, and on the third day He rose again?
6. Do you believe Jesus ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father?
7. Do you believe Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead?
8. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit?
9. Do you believe in the holy Catholic Church? (you have said no to this already, but let me ask instead, Do you believe in the body of Christ? If so, who is in it?)
10. Do you believe in the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting?

This Apostles’ Creed is very ancient. While based on the oral and written tradition of the apostles, it is not the complete Christian doctrine but it is the essential doctrine. Would you agree?

Since the Apostles were witnesses to and chosen by Jesus, what did He teach them?

It is told in scripture that Jesus taught the Apostles more than the other followers. Why?

It is told in scripture that the Apostles selected others and passed on what Jesus taught them. Do you trust that the Apostles taught correctly?

It is told in scripture that churches were founded based on the Apostles preaching and teaching. It is said that men were chosen to lead these churches and to pass on what the Apostles taught. If these churches taught incorrectly, scripture says that letters were written and councils made up of Apostles and elders corrected them. Do you believe that the Apostles and Jeruslem elders had the authority to correct them and to make doctrine?

Since error was introduced in the first churches and it took the authority of the Apostles guided by the Holy Spirit to correct them, doesn’t it seem likely they passed on their authority to selected disciples to correct error after they passed on?

If the Apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit and they set up churches ordered in a hierarchal way, wouldn’t those church elders also be guided by the Holy Spirit? And couldn’t we trust the doctrine of those elders?

We learn in church history from the early and latter church fathers that some churches had problems not fixable internally and so they appeal to other churches to help correct doctrine. It seems that these early churches felt the bishop of Rome was an important elder and should be listened to. At other times all the bishops of all the churches got together in council to judge doctrine. Do you feel they were guided by the Holy Spirit as a group like the council of Jerusalem in scripture?

Also from the church fathers we learn that the worship service looked very similiar to the Catholic service today. The Catholic Church is set up very similiar to the early church. The Catholic Church can trace its bishops back to the Apostles. Isn’t likely that it has the authority passed on from the Apostles?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Then why read the bible?

I will assume this is a serious question.

For our personal relationship with Him, who is and was and who is to come.

Eternal Truths is just a fancy way of saying “doctrines of the Church”. Thse Truths are not just letters and words. They are much more than that. They are a way of life.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I can live with your accusation against me, that I worship the bible. Of course it is a false accusation, but I’m not going to lose sleep over it. You are making your false accusation because you have no way of defending what you are asserting about the alleged authority of the Catholic Church. Believe me, I’ve come across this kind of tactic many times! It doesn’t bother me at all.

I was not accusing you of anything. I was just saying that if you accuse us of Church worship, then you accuse yourself of Bible worship. It is not me doing the accusing. It is your doing. Therefore, your false accusations are ill-founded. You are accusing me of accusing when I was not accusing! Why do I have to keep defending myself against claims claiming to assume what I am actually NOT saying? (One time before, I said I disagree with Sola Scriptura and the counter was that I disagree with the Bible! Can people just be reasonable and take me for my word? I am 99.999% of the time very very very precise in defending my Church. If I make a mistake, I will gladly admit it. I should not have to say what I am saying AND what I am NOT saying. I will if I have to but that just wastes time.)

And, I have been proving that Church is infallible. You just do not accept it. My “tactic” is logic, reasoning and rationalities. I let everybody else do all the Scripture stuff because I cannot remember most theological/apologetic stuff from the Bible. My former atheism gave me that handicap. But, your “tactic” has only been to say that we have no grounds for our beliefs when we have given you plenty of grounds for our beliefs. You do not even give grounds to your claim that we have no grounds for our grounds. Riddle me that! Who is the one being dishonest here?

By the grace of God, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we can have the truth in spite of our own fallible reasoning, fallible interpretation of words, and fallible logic. It has nothing to do with an infallible religion, infallible church, or infallible Magisterium. It is all about God’s grace and His infallibility.

I think even Catholics would agree with this. The Holy Spirit protects us from being taught untruth. The fact remains though: we need someone to teach us. In Acts, we see that we do need someone to teach us from Scriptures. You claim that you can do it yourself for yourself. We claim that the Church does it for us.

Problem is: how do you know your interpretations are correct? How do you reconcile this with the multitude of Protestant denominations who claim to have that supernatural ability to claim “truth” from the Bible, even if they are contradictory?

How do we know that the Church is right? Well, she can answer infallibly for herself by the Holy Spirit and Christ’s promise that His sheep will never be fed untruth. This is not begging the question because yesterday I finished Acts of the Apostles for the first time and I am even more convinced (not that I wasn’t before) that the Catholic Church is infallible. It was not just about preaching Christ, it was about the Truth and dying for the Truth (which is Christ anyway but you understand what I mean). They were persecuted and died for what is right.

This is what the Chuch has seen for about 2000 years now.

 

[wanner47]

OK, you do not endorse personal interpretation of Scripture. Can you explain how you came to know that the RCC is the one founded by Jesus? If you came to know this without relying on your personal interpretation of Scripture, did you reason your way to this knowledge by the study of history?

My conversion story is linked in my signature.

 

[wanner47]

Is sola Scriptura your enemy? No, SS is a dogma–a way of discerning error from truth. So it would seem that the “enemy” for the RCC must be those people (or groups) that adhere to SS and any other way of discerning truth that is not dependent on Rome’s authority. Make no mistake: it is those who are MOST DEVOTED TO ROME that must attack SS, not those who worship God.

Devotion to the Church is devotion to God. Once again, Doggg, it’s not we must EITHER love the Church OR God, it’s that we love BOTH the Church AND God – but God most of all, since he established the Church.

Are you saying that Scripture is not really clear on whether abortion is a sin?

My personal opinion is that Scripture is very clear that abortion is a sin. However, many Christians disagree with me. Katherine Ragsdale, an Episcopalian bishop, says that “Abortion is a blessing.”

We are both interpreting Scripture to justify our belief. We both feel we are led by the Holy Spirit. How do we know who is right, me or her?

Not quite. I’m saying that people with sinful minds can, and often will, incorrectly interpret Scripture. Without the guidance of God, through the Holy Spirit, none of us could benefit from Scripture.

And how do we differentiate between those who are actually being guided by the Holy Spirit, and those who just think they are being guided by the Holy Spirit?

Where in the bible have you found any suggestion of a papacy?

catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp

Why is God offended by sola Scriptura?

Because He established a Church to teach and guide us long before He inspired the Bible. He never meant for Christians to base their doctrine upon private interpretation of Scripture. If He had, He would have handed a completed Bible to the Apostles long before they ever formed a Church.

A really good book that explains this in much greater detail is “By What Authority? An Evangelical Discovers Catholic Tradition” by Mark Shea.

 

[PRmerger]

Devotion to the Church is devotion to God. Once again, Doggg, it’s not we must EITHER love the Church OR God, it’s that we love BOTH the Church AND God – but God most of all, since he established the Church.

Indeed.

You cannot love God without the Church. For you do not know God without the Church.

You cannot know God without the Church. For you do not know God without the Church.

 

[SemperReformada]

Indeed.

You cannot love God without the Church. For you do not know God without the Church.

You cannot know God without the Church. For you do not know God without the Church.

So the Jews neither love or know God?

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreggAlvarez
The reason why people do not believe the Catholic Church is because they do not fully trust that God can or will protect them from untruth.

Or, another theory (one that makes much more sense to me) is that God has provided the Holy Spirit to guide His sheep to the truth needed for their salvation and sanctification.

Did God provide the Holy Spirit to guide the sheep or did He provide the Holy Spirit to guide the shepherds? When Jesus promised the Holy Spirit He promised that to eleven Apostles. Now Jesus certainly had more disciples than that but only the eleven received the promise of the Spirit of truth. Now if we look at the state of protestantism today how can you say those sheep are guided by the Spirit of Truth. Thousands of denominations each having its own truths. It is the spirit of chaos that is at work in protestantism not the Spirit of truth.

Quote:
Because every protestant denomination denies that they possess any authority.

Or, another theory (one that makes much more sense to me) is that God has provided a set of authoritative teachings that are Scripture, which is able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. It is my belief that all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Do you realize that no protestant denomination has ever stated authoritavely which writings are inspired? Really, none have. Instead they have agreed with the Catholic Church. In doing so they have, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, agreed that the Catholic Church’s decision on these writings was authoritative. This idea that you like that says that God provided the scriptures doesn’t tell the whole story now does it? It doesn’t tell HOW God provided the scriptures. So tell us HOW God provided the scriptures. Sure men were inspired to write them but somehow God must have forgotten to have someone write an inspired table of contents. So this glaring oversight of God had to be remedied by men. Or as you would claim fallible men. Well it took about 350 years for these fallible men to decide on the Table of Contents [otherwise known as the canon of scripture] and in about 400 AD the first Bible as we know it today with the Old and New Testaments in one volume was introduced. These fallible men had an easy time with the Old Testament. They just adopted the Septuagint with its 46 books. They reasoned that these were the Jewish writings in use in the time of Jesus and the Apostles and Jesus, though He cleaned out the Temple of its impurity did not bother to clean out the Jewish scriptures. The New Testament was different. There hard decisions had to be made on some writings to be excluded and some to be included. It was no slam dunk and there was much debate on which to include and which to exclude. In the end fallible men in several local synods came to the same conclusions on the 27 books we now call the New Testament. And who were these fallible men? They were Catholic bishops. So when you and your denomination opens your bible to read just remember that is a Catholic book brought to you by the Catholic Church and if the Catholic Church was not authorized by God to do so then leave your denomination because you are wasting your time.

Quote:
Protestants are so brain washed by the demonic doctrine of sola scriptura. That is why they have flipped flopped on issues such as abortion, contraception, divorce and remarriage and others. At one time every protestant denomination held that these were grave sins. Today they permit them all. No wonder protestants can’t accept a God that will protect them from untruth. That God does not exist in protestantism. But He does in Catholicism.

I can see that you have very strong faith in your religion. But that is not the faith that saves. It amounts to the worship of a religion, not much different from that of Muslim extremists. If the RCC ever starts to proclaim that there is no salvation outside of the RCC, run away from Rome, and run away fast! It is nothing but the worship of a religion. It is idol worship, and it is not a tiny sin!

What you see is a very strong faith in the Truth. I worship Truth and Truth is God. Jesus said He was the Way, the Truth and the Life. By the way extra ecclesia nulla salus or outside the church there is no salvation has been a doctrine of Catholicism since Apostolic times. And no I am not running away because I believe that the reason Jesus established a church was for man’s salvation and that church Jesus established is the Catholic Church. It is you who is running away from the Catholic Church and in doing so you are running away from salvation. One additional thought; we believe we are saved by God’s grace and without God’s grace no one is saved. God pours out His grace freely on those willing to receive and embrace the Truth. For a protestant or really anyone, to convert to Catholicism requires that God provide them with the grace to do so and they receive and accept it. My discernment is that you have hardened your heart and therefore have not responded to God’s grace. I will pray for a change of heart for you so that one day you may walk in the light of Truth and extra ecclesia nulla salus will not apply.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRmerger
Indeed.

You cannot love God without the Church. For you do not know God without the Church.

You cannot know God without the Church. For you do not know God without the Church.

So the Jews neither love or know God?

Are you speaking of the Jews who shouted “Crucify Him, crucify Him”? Salvation was offered to the Jew first and they rejected it. Once they knew God but they became so entwined with the works of the Mosaic Law that while they knew the Law they did not know God. To them God was the Law.

 

[inkaneer]

Dogg, I am rejoining thread after posting early on. I have read much of this and have gotten turned around. Could you please answer the following so I know how to proceed:

1. Do you believe in God the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
2. Do you believe in Jesus Christ , his only begotten Son, our Lord?
3. Do you believe Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary?
4. Do you believe Jesus suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried?
5. Do you believe Jesus descended into hell, and on the third day He rose again?
6. Do you believe Jesus ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father?
7. Do you believe Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead?
8. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit?
9. Do you believe in the holy Catholic Church? (you have said no to this already, but let me ask instead, Do you believe in the body of Christ? If so, who is in it?)
10. Do you believe in the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting?

This Apostles’ Creed is very ancient. While based on the oral and written tradition of the apostles, it is not the complete Christian doctrine but it is the essential doctrine. Would you agree?

We await Dogg’s answer to this post.

 

[Cinette]

I agree with you that the bible needs to be taught and explained. Without serious study, much of it will be vaguely understood at best. But how do we get from this, to the knowledge that the RCC is our teaching authority?

I think this question has been answered by another poster. Matt 16:18-9 - its all there. Jesus founded His Church on Peter the Rock, gave him the keys of the Kingdom, and assured him that He would be with us always and that the H Spirit would guide the Church into all truth. Surely that is clear and does not require further interpretation? That Church was the only Christian Church for 1500 years until Luther and the reformation. Does this not tell you something?

 

[SemperReformada]

Quote:
Are you speaking of the Jews who shouted “Crucify Him, crucify Him”? Salvation was offered to the Jew first and they rejected it. Once they knew God but they became so entwined with the works of the Mosaic Law that while they knew the Law they did not know God. To them God was the Law.

I’m not sure if you answered my question or not.

Can the Jews love God or not? To make it easier for you, can a modern Jew love God?

 

[Cinette]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRmerger
Indeed.

You cannot love God without the Church. For you do not know God without the Church.

You cannot know God without the Church. For you do not know God without the Church.

Are you speaking of the Jews who shouted “Crucify Him, crucify Him”? Salvation was offered to the Jew first and they rejected it. Once they knew God but they became so entwined with the works of the Mosaic Law that while they knew the Law they did not know God. To them God was the Law.

You forget that Jesus and all his Apostles were Jews and so were His Disciples.

 

[wanner47]

I’m not sure if you answered my question or not.

Can the Jews love God or not? To make it easier for you, can a modern Jew love God?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

 

[inkaneer]

I’m not sure if you answered my question or not.

Can the Jews love God or not? To make it easier for you, can a modern Jew love God?

Your original post was answered. You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SemperReformada
“So the Jews neither love or know God?”

and I answered:

“Are you speaking of the Jews who shouted “Crucify Him, crucify Him”? Salvation was offered to the Jew first and they rejected it. Once they knew God but they became so entwined with the works of the Mosaic Law that while they knew the Law they did not know God. To them God was the Law.”

Now as for the question, “can modern Jews love God?” The answer is sure they can.

 

[inkaneer]

You forget that Jesus and all his Apostles were Jews and so were His Disciples.

I forgot nothing of the sort. In Jesus’ day to be a Jew meant adherence to the Law. Jews were those who believed in Judaism. Christians were those who believed in Jesus. The apostles and the other disciples of Jesus were former Jews who converted and became Christians or more specifically, Catholic Christians.

 

[SemperReformada]

Your original post was answered. You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SemperReformada
“So the Jews neither love or know God?”

and I answered:

“Are you speaking of the Jews who shouted “Crucify Him, crucify Him”? Salvation was offered to the Jew first and they rejected it. Once they knew God but they became so entwined with the works of the Mosaic Law that while they knew the Law they did not know God. To them God was the Law.”

Now as for the question, “can modern Jews love God?” The answer is sure they can.

Thanks for the response. I happen to agree with you on this issue and it will be interesting to see what PRmerger means when she says

PRmerger:

You cannot love God without the Church. For you do not know God without the Church

At face value it appears she is saying that only Catholic’s can love God.