Personal interpretation

[PRmerger]

What has gone wrong here?

Of course, one can read the gospels and get to know Jesus. How hard is it to interpret Jesus when He says: “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life.”

Not sure what you’re saying here, granny.

When Doggg presents his interpretation of “You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church” and I present my interpretation, and they are not agreed, what’s the solution in your paradigm?

 

[Cinette]

I heard a story about the reason a Protestant converted.

Basically, he converted to the Catholic Church because it was the only one which had the guts to declare infallible doctrines based on its authority to interpret both Scripture and Tradition.


*Do you think that is funny by the way??

*

 

[wanner47]

Doggg,

Do you have any response to my questions from post 241?

 

[grannymh]

How is proclaiming that which Jesus said Himself (He* is* the way, is He not?) boxing up Jesus?

Certainly, Jesus is the Eternal Logos and exists without the Church…and there is no doubt that those who through no fault of their own have not been exposed to the Gospel can know Him through shadows and images…

but one cannot know Jesus as He has revealed Himself except through the Church.

“One cannot know Jesus” ???

 

[PRmerger]

“One cannot know Jesus” ???

Yes. How does one know Jesus without the Church?

I suppose He could appear to someone in a dream. Or by someone who knows Jesus, but this person could only know Jesus through the Church, so it’s still, by extension, the Church which gives her the knowledge of Christ, right?

 

[grannymh]

Not sure what you’re saying here, granny.

When Doggg presents his interpretation of “You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church” and I present my interpretation, and they are not agreed, what’s the solution in your paradigm?

I don’t have a paradigm. Why do I need one when I am simply saying that one should open the Bible and read it. Jesus doesn’t limit reading Scriputre. In fact, Jesus often touches the soul of the one reading it.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t have a paradigm. Why do I need one when I am simply saying that one should open the Bible and read it. Jesus doesn’t limit reading Scriputre. In fact, Jesus often touches the soul of the one reading it.

Indeed. Who is proclaiming anything other than that here?

We are talking about what happens when 2 people read the very same Scriptures and come up with 2 different interpretations.

To wit: Catholics proclaim that Matt 16:18 is when Jesus gave authority to Peter and thus instituted the papacy. Doggg is proclaiming that it isn’t.

In his paradigm there is no recourse. We both read and come up with 2 contrary positions. There is no authority to declare, “Thus says the Lord.”

 

[Cinette]

Devotion to the Church is devotion to God. Once again, Doggg, it’s not we must EITHER love the Church OR God, it’s that we love BOTH the Church AND God – but God most of all, since he established the Church.

My personal opinion is that Scripture is very clear that abortion is a sin. However, many Christians disagree with me. Katherine Ragsdale, an Episcopalian bishop, says that “Abortion is a blessing.”

We are both interpreting Scripture to justify our belief. We both feel we are led by the Holy Spirit. How do we know who is right, me or her?

And how do we differentiate between those who are actually being guided by the Holy Spirit, and those who just think they are being guided by the Holy Spirit?

catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp

Because He established a Church to teach and guide us long before He inspired the Bible. He never meant for Christians to base their doctrine upon private interpretation of Scripture. If He had, He would have handed a completed Bible to the Apostles long before they ever formed a Church.

A really good book that explains this in much greater detail is “By What Authority? An Evangelical Discovers Catholic Tradition” by Mark Shea.

*I think one needs to apply common sense. Look at the timeline - Jesus founded the Church, the Apostles spread the Good News and Churches grew in different areas but always under the authority and guidance of the Church - Peter and Paul and the Holy Spirit. The scriptures emanated from the Church and the Church later established the canon of the scriptures.

Sola Scriptura? Oh man! It does not makes sense. I think Protestants adhere to this notion because it does not have a central authority and therefore the only thing it can turn to are the scriptures. I can understand that - the why - but once one takes a look at the history of the Church, Sola Scripture does not make sense.

 

[Cinette]

I don’t have a paradigm. Why do I need one when I am simply saying that one should open the Bible and read it. Jesus doesn’t limit reading Scriputre. In fact, Jesus often touches the soul of the one reading it.

*Granny are you a Christian? If so, to what denomination do you belong? I think it is good to identify oneself.

Cinette*

 

[grannymh]

Do you think that is funny by the way??

As I recall, the story was presented in a serious manner. Someone had gone from one faith to another to another. However, depending on the story teller, it could be said in a funny way. Either way, it does make a powerful point.

 

[grannymh]

Um, I believe you mistake ‘infallible’ for ‘impeccable’. Infallibility is a charism that is used only in very specific circumstances.

I was playing off all the use of fallible in the posts… Maybe you missed those.

And really, some do NOT understand ‘Jesus bleeding on a cross’ at all if you’ve read even a fraction of posts here at CA.

That doesn’t mean that Jesus hanging from a cross can’t be understood.

Quite a few seem to think that his ‘being God’ meant that he didn’t suffer like a ‘regular person’ would, or that it wasn’t as HARD for him to die as it would have been for a ‘normal human’ because ‘he knew he’d come back’ etc. Actually in order to understand any tenet of Scripture doesn’t require that we personally be either infallible OR impeccable --but it does require that we have an authority to consult that IS infallible.

I am not sure how much terrirtory you are covering. No matter. I would say that approaching the Gospels with love is also good.

Think about it. . .there were many things (such as the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermes) that were written at the time of the New Testament, that were taught as authoritative, that were even seriously considered as inerrant Scripture. . .and then it was determined (through the Holy Spirit’s guidance of those Catholic Christians who were doing the consideration) that these were NOT inerrant Scripture.

Of course.

Now, if we were only to determine Scripture itself on your criteria of ‘personal understanding’, you’d have people who said that the Didache was Scripture and Job was not; that The Gospel of Thomas was Scripture but the Gospel of Mark was not, etc. etc. etc… . .because you wouldn’t have any authority which could say, infallibly, what was what.

And does all that take the Bible away from simple people?

But people accept that somehow what we know as “The Bible’ (more or less) was authoritatively decided around AD 386, well after any ‘eyewitnesses’ had died. The Church had the authority to determine Scripture well enough that even for 300 years after the unfortunate split in Christendom, most Protestants would not have murmured about the Gnostic gospels or considered that the Bible was divinely inspired AND its canon was infallibly determined. And the curious thing is that those making the decision weren’t ignorant hicks who weren’t ‘aware’ of all the other manuscripts and teachings etc. floating around. They were in fact quite aware, . . and even the most rabid anti-Catholic Protestant around ranting about the WOB and pagan practices still accepts that 'WOB’s” authority in determining what was Sacred Scripture. . .

History does not change the need for people to read the bible.

I know everyone means well. But life is usually “both-and” People are entitled to a personal understanding of what they read at the same time that the Catholic Church is the authority regarding the Catholic Deposit of Faith.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

 

[grannymh]

Granny are you a Christian? If so, to what denomination do you belong? I think it is good to identify oneself.

Cinette

I am a Catholic.

My experience with infallibility comes from two years of discussion with Cassini and from reading posts by people who understand how the visible Catholic Church operates.

In my humble opinion, there is more to Holy Scripture than authority which of course is essential. As a child, I learned about Jesus from listening to the Gospels and homilies at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Personally, I like the idea of the Gospels being a two-way conversation with Jesus. Before I get jumped on, that comment is not an “either-or” situation. It is ‘both-and’ because I learned Catholic doctrines before I read the Bible itself.

Blessings,
granny

THE HOLY EUCHARIST
IS THE LIGHT, STRENGTH, AND LIFE OF OUR SOULS.

 

[Cinette]

I am a Catholic.

My experience with infallibility comes from two years of discussion with Cassini and from reading posts by people who understand how the visible Catholic Church operates.

In my humble opinion, there is more to Holy Scripture than authority which of course is essential. As a child, I learned about Jesus from listening to the Gospels and homilies at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Personally, I like the idea of the Gospels being a two-way conversation with Jesus. Before I get jumped on, that comment is not an “either-or” situation. It is ‘both-and’ because I learned Catholic doctrines before I read the Bible itself.

Blessings,
granny

THE HOLY EUCHARIST
IS THE LIGHT, STRENGTH, AND LIFE OF OUR SOULS.

*I think it is good to have a childlike understanding of Jesus and the scriptures. Still the individual may wish to increase his/her understanding and then, of course, one should know one’s Faith in order to defend it. Especially in the Catholic Church which is constantly under attack.

I am a revert and have only really got to know my faith in the last few years and it delights me and I try to defend it whenever someone goes on the attack.

God bless
Cinette

P S Are you a real Granny?*

 

[alongexpected]

Which specific truths of Jesus are found only in the CC and not any other churches? How did you come to know that the CC is the one with the correct truths?

Dogg, i don’t know if you’re serious, or if you’re trolling, but you’re asking excellent questions. If you’ve noticed, all of your questions have been answered with variations of "it’s in the CCC/Jesus said so/the Popes have endorsed it and so forth.

As you’ve correctly pointed out, all religions have virtually identical claims to “authenticity”.

As I’ve said before, I respect the people that have faith. All I want the faithful to admit is that they’re taking a huge leap of faith that defies all logic and that it’s asking a lot for an unreligious to endorse their particular faith.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

You have misinterpreted and mischaracterized my words. I’m not saying, and I never said, that we (fallible people) can’t receive the truth and believe it.

Then, somebody had to teach you those truths. The Bible could not have done it in and of itself. If it was a non-Catholic, then which of the thousands of denominations was it? If it was Catholic, then you believe what we believe; that is,that your believe what was taught infallibly.

The Bible says we need a physical teaching authority. It also says personal interpretations are a no-no.

Even then the Bible clearly states in John that the Holy Spirit will continually remind the Church what is Truth.

With these three things, it is valid to believe the Church is infallible, considering we are the only ones to even claim it, or much more, prove it through history, reality and the Bible.

No misunderstanding here. You clearly stated that fallible people cannot teach infallibly, which amounts to cannot know infallibly. If that is not what you meant to say, then that is not my fault.

 

[Cinette]

Dogg, i don’t know if you’re serious, or if you’re trolling, but you’re asking excellent questions. If you’ve noticed, all of your questions have been answered with variations of "it’s in the CCC/Jesus said so/the Popes have endorsed it and so forth.

As you’ve correctly pointed out, all religions have virtually identical claims to “authenticity”.

As I’ve said before, I respect the people that have faith. All I want the faithful to admit is that they’re taking a huge leap of faith that defies all logic and that it’s asking a lot for an unreligious to endorse their particular faith.

*I understand that it must be very difficult for an unreligious to endorse a particular faith. My husband was atheist until 6 years ago. However, you said Doggg asked excellent questions and I am curious to know what is an “incorrect truth” since he speaks of correct truth. You might like to answer since you consider his questions excellent.

I am not sure that all religions have virtually identical claims to “authenticity”. If their history is short…?*

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Grannymh,

Maybe we are not seeing the same reality here. Let me explain…

I don’t have a paradigm. Why do I need one when I am simply saying that one should open the Bible and read it. Jesus doesn’t limit reading Scriputre. In fact, Jesus often touches the soul of the one reading it.

I am guessing that we can all agree that “God is love”… and that “God is one”… and that “Jesus Christ died on the cross to save us from sin”! And, Grannymh, you are asking what is/are the problem(s) in understanding these statements. And, while each is a profound mystery - I think we can say that most Christians are in agreement with these statements. And, with limited human understanding, we can understand these three truths.

The snag comes when we realize that the bible is more than three verses. There are real challenges for those who would follow Christ. And, this is where ‘personal interpretation’ not only defies Scripture itself (2Peter 1:20) but is one of the root causes for there being about 30,000+ different Protestant groupings all claiming to have the ‘truth’ of Christ and all claiming contradictory positions. If God is One, how can He be the author of incompatable ‘truths’?

Now, maybe you think God is ‘boxed in’ when one group claims that Baptism is necessary for salvation and another claims it is a mere optional symbol. After all, wouldn’t God have the Power to embrace all these variations? The answer is a surprising: No! And, the reason for this is that God represents order - it is the devil who represents chaos. There is no order in ‘truths’ that objectively contradict themselves. Christ did not found thousands of churches to follow Him - He founded one, and that one was founded on Peter (Matt 16:18).

You simply can not dismiss these thousands of contradictions with the idea that you are doing your own thing and that is all that counts. Let me give you an example … from Matthew 25:1-13, This is the parable of the Ten Virginis - while many focus on the foolish ones, I would like to draw your attention to the ending. Here are the verses:
**
1
"Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2
Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
3
The foolish ones, when taking their lamps, brought no oil with them,
4
but the wise brought flasks of oil with their lamps.
5
Since the bridegroom was long delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6
At midnight, there was a cry, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7
Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
8
The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
9
But the wise ones replied, ‘No, for there may not be enough for us and you. Go instead to the merchants and buy some for yourselves.’
10
While they went off to buy it, the bridegroom came and those who were ready went into the wedding feast with him. Then the door was locked.
11
Afterwards the other virgins came and said, ‘Lord, Lord, open the door for us!’
12
But he said in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, I do not know you.’
13
Therefore, stay awake, for you know neither the day nor the hour. **

Note the parable does not end with something like, “Even though I do not know you, you were pretty good girls anyway, so come on in!” Failing to meet the challenge of actually following the real Christ - and not some illusion created by personal interpretation based on SS and SF, has consequences - as these five foolish virgins found out.

Maybe paradigm is not a comfortable term - but, you really do have one. Just opening the Bible and reading it implies that one can simply open it and understand what is there. And, that is where all the problems come from. This is not to say that Jesus does not touch the soul of one reading Scripture - that is not the issue. The fact that personal interpretation enters into the picture is where we have distortion.

Look at Acts 8:26-35 for a person with true insight into human limitations of such understanding:

**26
Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, “Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route.”
27
So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,
28
and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
29
The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.”
30
Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31
He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him. **

I submit that it is this Ethopian eunich that serves as our role model. And, it is the teachings of the Catholic Church explaining the Scriptures, as opposed to personal interpretation, that provides the Light of Christ.

God bless

 

[PRmerger]

If you’ve noticed, all of your questions have been answered with variations of "it’s in the CCC/Jesus said so/the Popes have endorsed it and so forth.

This is absolutely NOT true (except, perhaps, with the exception of “Jesus said so”, and who could argue with that, eh?)

In fact, I challenge you to provide examples of “all” of Doggg’s questions being answered with because “it’s in the CCC” or “the Popes have endorsed it”.

 

[PRmerger]

The snag comes when we realize that the bible is more than three verses. There are real challenges for those who would follow Christ. And, this is where ‘personal interpretation’ not only defies Scripture itself (2Peter 1:20) but is one of the root causes for there being about 30,000+ different Protestant groupings all claiming to have the ‘truth’ of Christ and all claiming contradictory positions. If God is One, how can He be the author of incompatable ‘truths’?

Indeed. The is the BEST summary ever!

Now, maybe you think God is ‘boxed in’ when one group claims that Baptism is necessary for salvation and another claims it is a mere optional symbol. After all, wouldn’t God have the Power to embrace all these variations? The answer is a surprising: No! And, the reason for this is that God represents order - it is the devil who represents chaos. There is no order in ‘truths’ that objectively contradict themselves. Christ did not found thousands of churches to follow Him - He founded one, and that one was founded on Peter (Matt 16:18).

:clapping:

 

[inkaneer]

Thanks for the response. I happen to agree with you on this issue and it will be interesting to see what PRmerger means when she says

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRmerger
‘‘You cannot love God without the Church. For you do not know God without the Church.’’

At face value it appears she is saying that only Catholic’s can love God.

I know exactly what she means. Jesus established a church empowered to teach the nations the gospel. The gospel is the good news of man’s redemption of a loving God. It is in the church established by Jesus, therefore, that one gains the knowledge of God’s love. For those who may claim that knowledge is in the scriptures I say that without the church there would be no scriptures because even the scriptures came from the church. I will also say that while various christian denominations may have some portion of the total deposit of the knowledge of God’s love, none of them have the full deposit. It is only in the Church established by Christ, based on the eleven Apostles and their ordained successors, that the full deposit of the knowledge of God’s love exists.