Personal relationship with Jesus

[fastenatingguy]

I hate to speak for your friend, but many Protestant of the fundamental camp believe they Catholics do not have a “personal” relationship with Christ. That is so far from the truth that if they really knew just how close we are to Christ they would never utter that again.

You can completely agree with your friend on the personal relationship as being the thing that matters. In our relationship with Christ we have to work at it. If you get into a friendship with someone and then never call them or be there when needed, I am pretty sure that friendship will die. The same can be side about our personal relationship with Christ. Many fundamentalist Protestants believe their personal relationship is their asking Christ to come into their heart and save them from the fires of hell. They try to live for Christ and walk in the footsteps He step before us.

SO…do Catholics have a personal relationship with Christ? SURE WE DO! We are members of the Church that He established on earth. We partake in the Holy Eucharist that we gave to us. We have Christ still on the cross in our Churches to remind us exactly what He did for our sake.

We are able to meet Christ at the altar. It doesn’t get much more personal than that.

A PERSONAL relationship with Jesus? Of course!

But it’s NOT a private relationship. That is the Eucharist!

 

[Reuben_J]

What gave you the idea that I was saying the “personal relationship” was on our terms? Jesus wants us to know him on his terms. Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me,” John 14:6.

No man gets to the Father but by Jesus. This means that indirect means—like the faith of my parents/family, religious leaders, or society at large will not work. I have to have faith in Christ for myself. I have to obey Christ for myself. My parents or grandparents, my pastor, my political leaders will not have to answer for how I have lived my life–I will have to stand before God by myself. That is why I have to know Christ for myself, personally. It is not enough that I live in a Christian home or society. If I have not had my own conversion to Christ, then I have nothing.

How is it selfish or prideful to want people to understand that they are responsible for their own eternity? How is telling someone that they must come to Christ themselves wrong? Or that they must repent for their own sins prideful? That the faithfulness of their parents or their membership in a particular church is not enough to wash away their sins?

Perhaps you are thinking that “personal relationship” somehow means moral relativity, that we can just do whatever we want as long as we have some ill-defined “relationship with JC?” I can assure you, most evangelical Protestants would consider that kind of “relationship with Jesus” no relationship at all.

I can understand your sentiment. Having a Charismatic background myself, I understand what the phrase ‘having a personal relationship with Jesus’ means and that is a beautiful thing that a Christian should experience. Basically if I am to summarize, it only means being close to Jesus, understand what he wants of you in our life and we therefore obey him accordingly in the walk of our life.

But if you challenge a Catholic with this, you would get a retort. What, you mean a Catholic does not has that? You see, Evangelical concept of a personal relationship with Jesus falls short in a true Catholic understanding. What personal relationship a Catholic may ask? What can be less that the Eucharist where Catholics are in communion with the entity of Christ? The relationship also cannot be entirely personal because to know Jesus means to know His Church which we must be part of. Meaning both the vertical and horizontal relationship.

So I think it is just a misunderstanding on the concept of the phrase. Catholics have no problem with it as long as it means to live the life of the Gospel but they see the Protestants concept of it as all in all is insufficient from the Catholics comprehensive understanding of their faith and doctrine.

 

[concretecamper]

What gave you the idea that I was saying the “personal relationship” was on our terms? Jesus wants us to know him on his terms. Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me,” John 14:6.

No man gets to the Father but by Jesus. This means that indirect means—like the faith of my parents/family, religious leaders, or society at large will not work. I have to have faith in Christ for myself. I have to obey Christ for myself. My parents or grandparents, my pastor, my political leaders will not have to answer for how I have lived my life–I will have to stand before God by myself. That is why I have to know Christ for myself, personally. It is not enough that I live in a Christian home or society. If I have not had my own conversion to Christ, then I have nothing.

How is it selfish or prideful to want people to understand that they are responsible for their own eternity? How is telling someone that they must come to Christ themselves wrong? Or that they must repent for their own sins prideful? That the faithfulness of their parents or their membership in a particular church is not enough to wash away their sins?
Perhaps you are thinking that “personal relationship” somehow means moral relativity, that we can just do whatever we want as long as we have some ill-defined “relationship with JC?” I can assure you, most evangelical Protestants would consider that kind of “relationship with Jesus” no relationship at all.

said with the utmost charity:

If it were not for the faith of the earliest christians continued up to present day, you would have no faith in Jesus Christ whatsoever. If it were not for those earliest Christians that shed blood to preserve the faith, Jesus Christ would be a legend to you. If it were not for that radical organized Catholic Church, Christ would be a footnote in history. So your statement about indirect means is ill conceived. You were taught how to obey Christ. You were taught the bible. So your statement proved my original supposition…it’s all about me. It is not about you. It is about the family of God…the family being us as well as those who came before us.

Also, I never said we were not responsible for our own destiny. I agree that we are.

 

[AbideWithMe]

said with the utmost charity:

If it were not for the faith of the earliest christians continued up to present day, you would have no faith in Jesus Christ whatsoever. If it were not for those earliest Christians that shed blood to preserve the faith, Jesus Christ would be a legend to you. If it were not for that radical organized Catholic Church, Christ would be a footnote in history. So your statement about indirect means is ill conceived. You were taught how to obey Christ. You were taught the bible. So your statement proved my original supposition…it’s all about me. It is not about you. It is about the family of God…the family being us as well as those who came before us.

Also, I never said we were not responsible for our own destiny. I agree that we are.

Concretecamper—I don’t know how to phrase this exactly right, but… You don’t seem to be understanding the posts.

 

[concretecamper]

Concretecamper—I don’t know how to phrase this exactly right, but… You don’t seem to be understanding the posts.

“This means that indirect means—like the faith of my parents/family, religious leaders, or society at large will not work.”

then people are not writing what they mean

 

[concretecamper]

“How is telling someone that they must come to Christ themselves wrong? Or that they must repent for their own sins prideful?”

How can they come to Christ unless they were taught it?

 

[ltwin]

said with the utmost charity:

If it were not for the faith of the earliest christians continued up to present day, you would have no faith in Jesus Christ whatsoever. If it were not for those earliest Christians that shed blood to preserve the faith, Jesus Christ would be a legend to you. If it were not for that radical organized Catholic Church, Christ would be a footnote in history. So your statement about indirect means is ill conceived. You were taught how to obey Christ. You were taught the bible. So your statement proved my original supposition…it’s all about me. It is not about you. It is about the family of God…the family being us as well as those who came before us.

Also, I never said we were not responsible for our own destiny. I agree that we are.

I don’t think you understand where I am coming from. I am a 3rd generation Pentecostal, dedicated, converted, and baptized in the church, and am studying to get a masters degree in history (of Christianity). I know both the importance of the church and church history. My posts have nothing to do with denigrating church attendance or fellowship.

History is very important. Spiritual inheritance is very important. However, if I never live into the history of Christianity (if it never becomes MY HISTORY) and if I fail to pass on the spiritual inheritance that I have been given, then it has done nothing for me. If all my Pentecostal heritage has given me is a baby dedication, a baptism, and youth group memories, then I have certainly missed out on the point. Jesus is the point. Jesus is the reason for it all. If after going to church all my life, learning the Bible stories, being taught the teachings of Jesus, I am still not a follower of Jesus and the most that can be said of me is that I’m a good neighbor and I show up to church on Christmas and Easter, what is up with that?

 

[ltwin]

“This means that indirect means—like the faith of my parents/family, religious leaders, or society at large will not work.”

then people are not writing what they mean

I still don’t think you are quite getting my point. Your mom can have faith in Christ for herself, but not for you. Your priest/pastor can be a spiritual teacher and guide, but he can’t live your life for you. You can live in a Christian nation (as many did until secularization attained cultural supremacy), but it doesn’t make you a follower of Christ.

This is why evangelicals emphasize the personal dimension of Christian life. Too many people in the West are accustomed to a cultural form of Christianity that is often at odds with a living faith.

“How is telling someone that they must come to Christ themselves wrong? Or that they must repent for their own sins prideful?”

How can they come to Christ unless they were taught it?

I never questioned that they could. In fact, on this same thread I have said,

Exactly! I wonder if the OP’s friend even goes to church? If she doesn’t go to church, how did she learn that she needed a personal relationship with Jesus? The Bible? How did she learn that she needed to read the Bible? An angel from heaven?

 

[DebChris]

Even in the protestant context, she’s wrong. She’s spouting off what we call “easy believeism” or, perhaps even worse, “cheap grace.”

What’s she’s missing is that, even for most protestants, that personal relationship is expressed, primarily, in three ways:

1 - We talk to Jesus in prayer.

2 - We allow Him to talk to us in the Scriptures.

3 - We serve Him in the context of a local church.

She’s also missing that we are admonished directly by the author of Hebrews to, “not neglect to meet together.”

I’m going to put it plainly: She can’t claim to love Jesus and have a personal relationship with Him if she isn’t willing to do what He says.

Yes, God calls each of us to a personal relationship with His Son. But He also calls us to live in community, to share the gifts that He has give each one of us for the upbuilding of His community. It has become clique, but there is “no such thing as a ‘lone ranger Christian.’” We belong to the Body of Christ.
As Catholics, when we gather together, we are nourished not only by the Word of God in the Scriptures, but by Christ Himself that we might become more Christlike. Often times we fail, as we fail in our human relationships and need to seek amends, to seek forgiveness from each other and through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Catholics don’t always talk about a personal relationship with our Savior, unless we happen to be members of the Charismatic Renewal, it is very much a part of the Catholic way of life.

 

[Cat]

Yes, God calls each of us to a personal relationship with His Son. But He also calls us to live in community, to share the gifts that He has give each one of us for the upbuilding of His community. It has become clique, but there is “no such thing as a ‘lone ranger Christian.’” We belong to the Body of Christ.
As Catholics, when we gather together, we are nourished not only by the Word of God in the Scriptures, but by Christ Himself that we might become more Christlike. Often times we fail, as we fail in our human relationships and need to seek amends, to seek forgiveness from each other and through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Catholics don’t always talk about a personal relationship with our Savior, unless we happen to be members of the Charismatic Renewal, it is very much a part of the Catholic way of life.

I was Evangelical Protestant for 47 years before converting to Catholicism in 2004.

I think that Evangelical Protestants have Catholics beat by a mile when it comes to “living in community.”

From what I’ve seen over the last 9 years ,most Catholics come to Mass and go home, and that’s it. They are not involved with their parish community at all, in any ministry, social group, class, study, or even saying “hi” to people in the lobby and parking lot.

They come to Mass and they leave. Some community. I am not impressed.

But Evangelical Protestants make an effort to get to know and befriend as many of their fellow church attendees as possible. They are generally involved in multiple ministries and social activities in their churches.

During my years as an Evangelical Protestant at a Christian and Missionary Alliance church in North Carolina, I knew by name (first and last) around 500 people in my church, and I was friends with many of these people and regularly got together with them for lunch, dinner, play dates for our kids, etc. I was in charge of many children’s ministries and also involved in music ministries and pro-life work and Bible studies and missionary work and children’s clubs, etc., so I got to know a lot of people, and I often had to call hundreds of people to recruit helpers for various ministries. (This was back in the days before email would have made it all so simple!)

We used to say that we “lived in the church.” And it’s still true today for many Evangelical Protestants.

I have to admit that I miss that close community. I know people in my parish, and I like them, and once in a while, we do something social together. But it’s nothing like what I grew up with.

I do understand that Mass is the Ultimate “Community of Christians,” and that partaking of the Eucharist makes me one with Christ and all His people present at Mass.

But then why does everyone just charge out of the church after this wonderful unifying moment, and ignore everyone? I can answer that–everyone is trying really hard to be “reverent” and “quiet” in the nave, and most Catholic churches have a teeny weeny lobby that barely has room for the priest to stand and shake hands. I’ve seen newly-built Catholic church buildings that have the same kind of giant lobby that many Protestant churches have–hooray and I hope this trend continues! It’s definitely more conducive to creating “community.”

 

[Reuben_J]

Never been an Evangelical and therefore have no first hand experience. What I feel about the Evangelical community experience is perhaps geared or focused more toward ‘fellowship’ with one another, a great thing by all means and certainly what the Catholic community often lack.

Yet this phenomenon is not what Catholics really have in mind no matter how good it may be. To be sure, I would not know five hundred of the parishioners in my parish and more, despite how many times you sit next to a person in a pew, sharing sign of peace in the mass, you may not know his name other than the familiarity of his face. It can be as bad as that sometimes especially in a big parish.

To the Catholics, and this is a personal opinion from personal experience, the focus is more on the spiritual aspect rather than social, and usually a strong relationship among parishioners derived from experience of doing spiritual activity together over period of time.

Thus friendship and bond usually as a result of doing thing together like in retreats and devotions. However the social aspect of it has caught up definitely. My parish is as active as it could be - there are all kinds of activities and people who work together in these various groups have become pals and their relationship has become very close.

Are Catholics cold and lack the warmth of the Evangelicals? Not necessary. In my parish, we can roughly have three categories of Catholics. The regulars being at the top of the table. And more often than not, one would always see these everywhere and anywhere.

The second category are the ordinary so-called Sunday Christian who come to church to fulfill their obligation. These will rush to the car park after mass to get a table at the local restaurant for the family brunch. They have no time to socialize after church.

The third categories are very often the lapsed Catholics. We can see them a few times during some important mass or occasions in the church otherwise they are mainly absentees.

I would say the fellowship of the Evangelicals, admirable as it is, would seem hollow to most Catholics. For without deep spiritual activities such fellowship would only reduced to any club-like activities which the Church is not. A greater mission for Catholics, if they must go out to know people would be to involve in work of charity.

Thus the disdain for phrase like ‘personal relationship with Christ’, simply because we think that the greater call is to serve the Church of Christ. The personal relationship is often taken for granted in communion in the Eucharist which is the summit of all relationship with Christ.

 

[DebChris]

I was Evangelical Protestant for 47 years before converting to Catholicism in 2004.

I think that Evangelical Protestants have Catholics beat by a mile when it comes to “living in community.”

From what I’ve seen over the last 9 years ,most Catholics come to Mass and go home, and that’s it. They are not involved with their parish community at all, in any ministry, social group, class, study, or even saying “hi” to people in the lobby and parking lot.

They come to Mass and they leave. Some community. I am not impressed.

But Evangelical Protestants make an effort to get to know and befriend as many of their fellow church attendees as possible. They are generally involved in multiple ministries and social activities in their churches.

During my years as an Evangelical Protestant at a Christian and Missionary Alliance church in North Carolina, I knew by name (first and last) around 500 people in my church, and I was friends with many of these people and regularly got together with them for lunch, dinner, play dates for our kids, etc. I was in charge of many children’s ministries and also involved in music ministries and pro-life work and Bible studies and missionary work and children’s clubs, etc., so I got to know a lot of people, and I often had to call hundreds of people to recruit helpers for various ministries. (This was back in the days before email would have made it all so simple!)

We used to say that we “lived in the church.” And it’s still true today for many Evangelical Protestants.

I have to admit that I miss that close community. I know people in my parish, and I like them, and once in a while, we do something social together. But it’s nothing like what I grew up with.

I do understand that Mass is the Ultimate “Community of Christians,” and that partaking of the Eucharist makes me one with Christ and all His people present at Mass.

But then why does everyone just charge out of the church after this wonderful unifying moment, and ignore everyone? I can answer that–everyone is trying really hard to be “reverent” and “quiet” in the nave, and most Catholic churches have a teeny weeny lobby that barely has room for the priest to stand and shake hands. I’ve seen newly-built Catholic church buildings that have the same kind of giant lobby that many Protestant churches have–hooray and I hope this trend continues! It’s definitely more conducive to creating “community.”

I have attended many non-Catholic worship services. And I do enjoy the fellowship that follows, just as I enjoy the fellowship that follows many prayer meetings. You are right that sometimes Catholics tend to compartmentalize worship. They attend Mass rather than fully participate in the thanksgiving celebration that it is. From Mass, we are sent out to serve the people of God. It would be wonderful if the people of God would more fully take up that challenge, to realize and fully utilize the gifts we have received. Catholic and non-Catholic, we are all brothers and sisters in the Lord. We are all part of the Body of Christ.
You raise again the point that has been made throughout this thread. Our relationship is not merely a one to one relationship between God and self. You add to that the idea of reverence, and others have at least alluded to the importance of obedience. “It is not the one who cries ‘Lord, Lord,’ who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of the Father.” It is not a matter of ‘cheap grace.’ Having been nourished by the Word of God in Scripture and by Christ Himself in the Eucharist, we are expected to freely give what we have freely received. We need to reach outside ourselves, into the community, into the marketplace, to bind up the wounds of the Samaritan. This is where we often fail.

 

[Miriam1947]

I was Evangelical Protestant for 47 years before converting to Catholicism in 2004.

I think that Evangelical Protestants have Catholics beat by a mile when it comes to “living in community.”

From what I’ve seen over the last 9 years ,most Catholics come to Mass and go home, and that’s it. They are not involved with their parish community at all, in any ministry, social group, class, study, or even saying “hi” to people in the lobby and parking lot.

They come to Mass and they leave. Some community. I am not impressed.

I love that I am not love bombed. I hated it when I would go to a new church and the next thing you know they’re on the phone or sending mail, etc. Taught me not to fill out guest cards that’s for sure. I am not an extrovert.

But Evangelical Protestants make an effort to get to know and befriend as many of their fellow church attendees as possible. They are generally involved in multiple ministries and social activities in their churches.

During my years as an Evangelical Protestant at a Christian and Missionary Alliance church in North Carolina, I knew by name (first and last) around 500 people in my church, and I was friends with many of these people and regularly got together with them for lunch, dinner, play dates for our kids, etc. I was in charge of many children’s ministries and also involved in music ministries and pro-life work and Bible studies and missionary work and children’s clubs, etc., so I got to know a lot of people, and I often had to call hundreds of people to recruit helpers for various ministries. (This was back in the days before email would have made it all so simple!)

We used to say that we “lived in the church.” And it’s still true today for many Evangelical Protestants.

Does your parish not offer any ministries? If not, why not start one yourself? We have Bible studies, pro-life ministry, Theology on Tap, and many more.

I have to admit that I miss that close community. I know people in my parish, and I like them, and once in a while, we do something social together. But it’s nothing like what I grew up with.

My parish does have a group that gets together for breakfast after Mass. Anyone who wants to partake is welcome. We also have coffee and donuts after the first Sunday Mass each month in the rectory.

I do understand that Mass is the Ultimate “Community of Christians,” and that partaking of the Eucharist makes me one with Christ and all His people present at Mass.

But then why does everyone just charge out of the church after this wonderful unifying moment, and ignore everyone? I can answer that–everyone is trying really hard to be “reverent” and “quiet” in the nave, and most Catholic churches have a teeny weeny lobby that barely has room for the priest to stand and shake hands. I’ve seen newly-built Catholic church buildings that have the same kind of giant lobby that many Protestant churches have–hooray and I hope this trend continues! It’s definitely more conducive to creating “community.”

If I had wanted to join a Protestant church I would have. I love that my little parish church is built just the way it should be. In the form of a cross. Not like the new Catholic church in town which looks like any other Protestant church. When it was first built they didn’t even have a statue in it and the Tabernacle was hidden on the side, plus the Stations of the Cross were so small you could barely see them.

I guess it comes down to: “To each his own.”

 

[CopticChristian]

What do you say?

You really have to wonder.

In my years past, experiencing this invitation, finding that this form of Protestant thought proved to be inconsistent and narrow minded, focused on issues causing cognitive dissonance I see the following:

The personal relationship asks for the individual to…

find a Bible believing Church
attend a Wednesday Bible Study
attend the Friday night potluck
attend Saturday service

and none of this is done singularly, it is corporate. If the wife, as is usually the case is “saved” then the children follow and then the husband…the personal relationship as introduced is an enticement to gain corporate following and membership…

with that in mind I discovered two sources, one Catholic and the other not…

catholicapologetics.org/ap100000.htm

The expression “personal relationship” comes neither from the language of the Bible nor from the history of Christian faith. The expression comes from the humanist psychology of the last hundred years, principally that of Abraham Maslow, Carl Rogers and Eric Fromm. It also has its roots in over emphasis on the attitude of rugged individualism of the early development of America.

The Catholic Source confirms this novation, and to consider that Christ, the Body of
Christ is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow, it has to be reconciled with something that is not of Apostolic origin and should be viewed with skepticism.

christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/7703/what-is-the-history-of-the-concept-of-a-personal-relationship-with-jesus

The Bible never uses this phrase. Jesus certainly had personal relationships with his disciples, but after his death, Paul never tells the churches in Corinth or Rome that they need better “personal relationships with Jesus.” The other epistles don’t talk about ways to “strengthen” that “personal relationship,” etc.

How long has a “personal relationship” with Jesus been talked about in Christian culture? Where did this term and related language originate, and what is its history?

Here, from a Protestant perspective is what I usually find, many different fallible views without consensus, that leads some to accept this, many points of view corporate view that is seen as personal and yet is a quagmire of confusing thought without explicit answers that becomes for many the accepted norm, since the only authority is a book, and what anyone else thinks and believes is just that. It is expected that there are many points of view without consistency as long as there is agreement on whatever essentials whatever any particular body suggests it should be.

Then there is this…

vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20130629_enciclica-lumen-fidei_en.html

Faith as the light…from Francis.

Faith becomes a summons to a lengthy journey leading to worship of the Lord on Sinai and the inheritance of a promised land. God’s love is seen to be like that of a father who carries his child along the way (cf. Dt 1:31). Israel’s confession of faith takes shape as an account of God’s deeds in setting his people free and acting as their guide (cf. Dt 26:5-11), an account passed down from one generation to the next. God’s light shines for Israel through the remembrance of the Lord’s mighty deeds, recalled and celebrated in worship, and passed down from parents to children. Here we see how the light of faith is linked to concrete life-stories, to the grateful remembrance of God’s mighty deeds and the progressive fulfilment of his promises.

Francis points out the history of the relationship with God. Personal? No, corporate transmitted in families, generation to generation, calling to mind that in that time there was only “God”. This causes us today to reflect on “Son-Father-Spirit” and should cause us to reflect on the writings of JP II, God is a family and replicating that understanding in the world we are not relating as a family one-to-one, just me and my dad, rather our family with other families uniting in a similar fashion as did Corporate Israel through His Church.

With this presence of a mediator in its midst, Israel learns to journey together in unity. The individual’s act of faith finds its place within a community, within the common “we” of the people who, in faith, are like a single person — “my first-born son”, as God would describe all of Israel (cf. Ex 4:22). Here mediation is not an obstacle, but an opening: through our encounter with others, our gaze rises to a truth greater than ourselves. Rousseau once lamented that he could not see God for himself: “How many people stand between God and me!”[11] … “Is it really so simple and natural that God would have sought out Moses in order to speak to Jean Jacques Rousseau?”[12] On the basis of an individualistic and narrow conception of knowledge one cannot appreciate the significance of mediation, this capacity to participate in the vision of another, this shared knowledge which is the knowledge proper to love.

Is it not ironic that Francis points out this difficulty that the individual has when confronting the mystery of God…“what about me”?

There is nothing new under the sun and when encoutering anyone that believes it is just me and Jesus, saying what about the personal relationship, these thoughts should come to mind and we should say…

Absolutely, a personal relationship is important, a family relationship is important, but since God love me as much as He loves you, how selfish I would be to believe that as I journey it is just me and Jesus, for He gave us a family, He gave us a Church, He gave us so much more than just me and Him…and I would like to speak to you about that…

 

[relstudent]

(I did not read all the posts so sorry if I have restated something)

Christians are not called to have a personal relationship with Jesus, we are called to BE Jesus to the the world.

That is not saying that there isnt a relationship, but the relationship isnt a personal one (like it would be with your best friend) it is a supernatural one that strenghtens one through the sacraments.

 

[CopticChristian]

(I did not read all the posts so sorry if I have restated something)

Christians are not called to have a personal relationship with Jesus, we are called to BE Jesus to the the world.

That is not saying that there isnt a relationship, but the relationship isnt a personal one (like it would be with your best friend) it is a supernatural one that strenghtens one through the sacraments.

This is thoughtful and with the understanding that the Eastern Catholics have their own Catechism I cannot imagine that it would vary in content or direction and I suggest you consider the organization of the Catechism…

We are called to have Faith and believe, ie all elements of the Creed
We are called to exercise the gifts given in the Sacraments, ie confirming the existence of our One High Priest
We are called to live a moral life and follow Jesus to become Holy as our God is Holy
and
We are called to pray and ask for help…

and if we consider that as you say we are to be Jesus…

Jesus had absolute trust and belief
Jesus is the Source of Grace of the Sacraments, ie grace is nothing more than divine sonship
Jesus was like us in all ways except sin and living morally asks us to do the same

and

He prayed to the Father

it is more than just being, it is understanding what the existence of that being entails…and it may start with accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior and for some it may end in eternal glory using the sign posts along the way that lead us to the way, the truth and the light

or we

remain in darkness

 

[hillormountain]

I was Evangelical Protestant for 47 years before converting to Catholicism in 2004.

I think that Evangelical Protestants have Catholics beat by a mile when it comes to “living in community.”

From what I’ve seen over the last 9 years ,most Catholics come to Mass and go home, and that’s it. They are not involved with their parish community at all, in any ministry, social group, class, study, or even saying “hi” to people in the lobby and parking lot.

They come to Mass and they leave. Some community. I am not impressed.

But Evangelical Protestants make an effort to get to know and befriend as many of their fellow church attendees as possible. They are generally involved in multiple ministries and social activities in their churches.

During my years as an Evangelical Protestant at a Christian and Missionary Alliance church in North Carolina, I knew by name (first and last) around 500 people in my church, and I was friends with many of these people and regularly got together with them for lunch, dinner, play dates for our kids, etc. I was in charge of many children’s ministries and also involved in music ministries and pro-life work and Bible studies and missionary work and children’s clubs, etc., so I got to know a lot of people, and I often had to call hundreds of people to recruit helpers for various ministries. (This was back in the days before email would have made it all so simple!)

We used to say that we “lived in the church.” And it’s still true today for many Evangelical Protestants.

I have to admit that I miss that close community. I know people in my parish, and I like them, and once in a while, we do something social together. But it’s nothing like what I grew up with.

I do understand that Mass is the Ultimate “Community of Christians,” and that partaking of the Eucharist makes me one with Christ and all His people present at Mass.

But then why does everyone just charge out of the church after this wonderful unifying moment, and ignore everyone? I can answer that–everyone is trying really hard to be “reverent” and “quiet” in the nave, and most Catholic churches have a teeny weeny lobby that barely has room for the priest to stand and shake hands. I’ve seen newly-built Catholic church buildings that have the same kind of giant lobby that many Protestant churches have–hooray and I hope this trend continues! It’s definitely more conducive to creating “community.”

excellent summation-- it sure defines that i have seen of the roman catholic community, and the Evangelical community …

personally i like the sense of personal community in the Evangelical,there is more fellowship…

 

[Reuben_J]

I have attended many non-Catholic worship services. And I do enjoy the fellowship that follows, just as I enjoy the fellowship that follows many prayer meetings. You are right that sometimes Catholics tend to compartmentalize worship. They attend Mass rather than fully participate in the thanksgiving celebration that it is. From Mass, we are sent out to serve the people of God. It would be wonderful if the people of God would more fully take up that challenge, to realize and fully utilize the gifts we have received. Catholic and non-Catholic, we are all brothers and sisters in the Lord. We are all part of the Body of Christ.
You raise again the point that has been made throughout this thread. Our relationship is not merely a one to one relationship between God and self. You add to that the idea of reverence, and others have at least alluded to the importance of obedience. “It is not the one who cries ‘Lord, Lord,’ who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of the Father.” It is not a matter of ‘cheap grace.’ Having been nourished by the Word of God in Scripture and by Christ Himself in the Eucharist, we are expected to freely give what we have freely received. We need to reach outside ourselves, into the community, into the marketplace, to bind up the wounds of the Samaritan. This is where we often fail.

I am not really addressing your post but rather to offer myself further comment.

I think generally the words of the concluding rite of the mass governs Catholics mentality, whether some of us realize it or not. … The mass is ended go and serve the Lord. …

This is not often preached simply because there is little room for it in the mass itself and moreover it is taken for granted that Catholics know and abide by it. And yes this is where many often fail.

In some conferences that I know of especially where the theme is focused on the Eucharist, some of the implication of this exhortation would be explained and discussed at length.

We come to the mass to receive Jesus. We are actually then have become Jesus by the full communion with him with his Body and Blood. In other word we are fed, blessed and sanctified and made holy. Now that is for the personal grace we get.

So what then after the mass? The mass has ended, we are Jesus now by our participation in it, so what now? The exhortation is very clear. Now that we are Jesus, go out then and do what Jesus does in the full knowledge that we have receive this awesome grace from him. Of course we fail in this many times but on the other hand this is the inspiration that lead many people to become saints.

For Catholics the ultimate personal relationship with Jesus derives from being one with him through the Eucharist and to live out the commission thereafter from that.

 

[chimo]

I was talking with a friend today about religion and she said that the only thing that matters is having a personal relationship with Jesus. I told her I disagree and that being an active part of the body of Christ matters. She said good works come from first having that personal relationship. I told her that one can do good even when there are doubts about salvation. I don’t think I explained myself very well. I don’t know how to talk to protestants of that variety. What do you say?

Of course in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches the idea is how do you reflect that personal relationship you receive in Church with Jesus to make it more present in the outside world. In truth you need to perform worthy acts of mercy. These acts of mercy is in response to what Jesus does for you at every Mass at every Divine Liturgy. The three degrees of Mercy are prayer, deeds and words. Unless we as Christians receive Mercy from God through every Sacrament we are not doing anything worthwhile when we do not offer to others what God has given to us. For any relationship to Jesus be authentic and alive it must involve our own deeds of mercy to work alongside His. This is why Jesus said “Be merciful just as your Father is merciful” and again “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” The only standard to measure your relationship with Jesus is the mercy you give out during the week between Communions. If you are not merciful at all you are not doing any obligation that would spread the Kingdom of God.

 

[Reuben_J]

I was talking with a friend today about religion and she said that the only thing that matters is having a personal relationship with Jesus. I told her I disagree and that being an active part of the body of Christ matters. She said good works come from first having that personal relationship. I told her that one can do good even when there are doubts about salvation. I don’t think I explained myself very well. I don’t know how to talk to protestants of that variety. What do you say?

As one who employ this phrase regularly, ‘personal relationship with Jesus’, this derives from the fact that Jesus is:

1. God
2. King/Master
3. Brother, and
4. Friend
   characteristic of Jesus which are Biblically founded, of course.

The personal relationship with Jesus thing is very much arises from the fact that Jesus is our friend. This truth is something one experiences perhaps by the grace of the Holy Spirit and not so much merely knowing that knowledge.

As in all friendship, it has to be nurtured so that it may grow. One has to spend more time with the friend to know him more and more. (Prayers)

But since Jesus is also our brother, we know that we are his family and we understand that a brother loves us and as sibling, how close we are to him then. There should not be any secret and something to hide.

But not only Jesus is our brother and friend, but he is also our Master and King. And therefore we obey the command of the King to serve and, if needs be, to give our life for him. And to do the work that the Master assigns to us each day.

But Jesus also is God. Therefore we anticipate his blessing, salvation, sanctification, protection, healing and providence. And we trust that he does for us as these are his promise to us.

In essence this is what the personal relationship with Jesus entails and it should transform a person into a new creation, holy, transformed and repentance and set aside for God.

The difference with the Protestants practice in this is that they achieve the end result but without the Eucharist that Catholics have.

The phrase personal relationship with Jesus especially in the Catholics circle is mainly seen as a lingo, a jargon for those who employ its usage with specific understanding of what it entails. It can be problematic to use it to exhort another Catholic because it can sound condescending. Catholics have personal relationship with Jesus in the Eucharist and it is unthinkable to think that the Eucharist does not transform a person to be like Christ.

So that’s the thing that make us often talk passing each other with the Protestants/Evangelicals who use this phrase who in term of personal holiness are not much different than us Catholics. There are the Jesus-like Catholics as I mentioned in the other post (the three categories of Catholics) as too are the Protestants.