Persons of trinity

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Telstar said:
First, I think we need to define essence and distinction.

essence
    1. the basic, real, and invariable nature of a thing or its significant individual feature or features
    1. (as used in philosophy) the inward nature, true substance, or constitution of anything, as opposed to what is accidental, phenomenal, illusory, etc.
dis·tinc·tion
    1. a difference or contrast between similar things or people.
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    2. ***excellence that sets someone or something apart from others***.
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    3. **a difference that you can see, hear, smell, feel, etc. **
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    4.** *the separation of things or people into different groups*** according to their attributes or *characteristics*.
God’s essence is His Divine Nature, which is common in all 3 Persons in the Trinity.

The 3 Persons distinction from each other is in the characteristics of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

I hope this helps.
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javid said:
Dear talstar

According to your model:

Person=essence+ special characteristics

And it does contadict simplicity of God.
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javid’s essence is his human nature
javid is a person
person=javid+human nature= javid is 2 people!!!

According to your ‘logic’ there are 2 javids. I have to be correct because I used your formula!
 
Isn’t it strange that our Earth is a three-dimensional Planet and God expressed through our reality is also three dimensional? How would God be perceived on a 12 dimensional Planet?

Think about it. Get out of the brainwashing and just think about it.

I was born and raised in a serious Catholic family (environment) and it took me years to undo the brainwashing that children of all Faiths are subjected.

The time for Faith and Churches is quickly coming to an end. Can you allow yourself the freedom to conceive of things outside of the box of predefined approaches to your God? Well, are you?

John Michael
 
Telstar said:
javid’s essence is his human nature
javid is a person
person=javid+human nature= javid is 2 people!!!

According to your ‘logic’ there are 2 javids. I have to be correct because I used your formula!
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No sir! Sorry but I did not say that.

I DID NOT say:

God=father+divine essence

Please read my questin carefully!
 
Vico said:
Yes. The supreme unity and simplicity of God does not exclude plurality of relations because they are founded relatively, which means they do not import composition.
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Dear vico

You must understand that My Question is about persons, not God.

Now if relations are real and relations are not the essence, so each person has both devine nature and relation, And it seems this makes a composition.

Best regards
 
javid said:
Dear vico

You must understand that My Question is about persons, not God.

Now if relations are real and relations are not the essence, so each person has both devine nature and relation, And it seems this makes a composition.

Best regards
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The error is in the idea that “relations are not the essence”.

The persons are founded by relations, which means they do not import composition.

St. Thomas Aquinas:“In God esence is the same as “suppositum,” which in intellectual substances is nothing else than person.”

and

“in creatures relations are accidental, whereas in God they are the divine essence itself.”
newadvent.org/summa/1039.htm#article1
 
Vico said:
The error is in the idea that “relations are not the essence”.

The persons are founded by relations, which means they do not import composition.

St. Thomas Aquinas:“In God esence is the same as “suppositum,” which in intellectual substances is nothing else than person.”

and

“in creatures relations are accidental, whereas in God they are the divine essence itself.”
newadvent.org/summa/1039.htm#article1
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Dear Vico

Thanks

If ralations are the devine essence, please explaine How are the distictions? According to your reply, relations are common between persons, because they are divine essence.

So we must think that relations do not make real distinction and therefor Holy Trinity is nit real!!
 
javid said:
Dear Vico

Thanks

If relations are the divine essence, please explain How are the distinctions? According to your reply, relations are common between persons, because they are divine essence.

So we must think that relations do not make real distinction and therefor Holy Trinity is not real!!
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St. Thomas Aquinas answers that relation referred to an opposite relation has a real distinction, even though relation referred to the essence does not really differ.Thence it follows that in God essence is not really distinct from person; and yet that the persons are really distinguished from each other. For person, as above stated (29, 4), signifies relation as subsisting in the divine nature. But relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking; while as referred to an opposite relation, it has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition. Thus there are one essence and three persons.
 
Vico said:
St. Thomas Aquinas answers that relation referred to an opposite relation has a real distinction, even though relation referred to the essence does not really differ.Thence it follows that in God essence is not really distinct from person; and yet that the persons are really distinguished from each other. For person, as above stated (29, 4), signifies relation as subsisting in the divine nature. But relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking; while as referred to an opposite relation, it has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition. Thus there are one essence and three persons.
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Dear Vico

The question is clear: Is distinction the divine essence or not?

Please answer this.
 
javid said:
Dear Vico

The question is clear: Is distinction the divine essence or not?

Please answer this.
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Dear Javid,
Yes.
You have been blessed with some very sound Catholics providing good solid answers. You have come to the right place.
To make things simple think of the Adam and Eve, they are one flesh. Eve comes From Adams very own substance. The distinction is the gender not the substance. With God the distinction is the source who is the Father and the expression of that source the one and only true Son by substance.
In the beginning was Eve and Eve was with Man (adam) and Eve was Man (woman). God created man in two genders. The Son is truly from the Father’s substance.

Your question prompted me to create a new page on my Web site to clarify the difference between the Father and the Son to prove their distinction.

www.4unity.net/god-the-father-almighty

It still needs some work but the common sense examples can’t be debated against.

Life in the Son and his beautiful name
Daniel
 
4unity said:
Dear Javid,
Yes.
You have been blessed with some very sound Catholics providing good solid answers. You have come to the right place.
To make things simple think of the Adam and Eve, they are one flesh. Eve comes From Adams very own substance. The distinction is the gender not the substance. With God the distinction is the source who is the Father and the expression of that source the one and only true Son by substance.
In the beginning was Eve and Eve was with Man (adam) and Eve was Man (woman). God created man in two genders. The Son is truly from the Father’s substance.

Your question prompted me to create a new page on my Web site to clarify the difference between the Father and the Son to prove their distinction.

www.4unity.net/god-the-father-almighty

It still needs some work but the common sense examples can’t be debated against.

Life in the Son and his beautiful name
Daniel
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Dear Daniel

If distinction us the essence, then persons of trinity do not have real ditinction. Distinction is what one has and others do not have, but essence is what is common in persons. So real distinction can’t be the essence, unless you ignore unique or simicity of God.
 
javid said:
Dear Vico

The question is clear: Is distinction the divine essence or not?

Please answer this.
Click to expand...
No.

I am posting from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, to get the phrasing necessary to state your question correctly.252 The Church uses
  • (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity,
  • (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and
  • (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
So neither essence nor relation involves real distinction, only person.

This agrees with St. Thomas Aquinas in that the relations are the essence, and the real distinction is in opposition not in essence. St. Thomas wrote::…divine simplicity requires that in God essence is the same as “suppositum”

… in God relations are subsistent, and so by reason of the opposition between them they distinguish the “supposita”.

But relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking; while as referred to an opposite relation, it has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition. Thus there are one essence and three persons."
 
Vico said:
No.

I am posting from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, to get the phrasing necessary to state your question correctly.252 The Church uses
  • (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity,
  • (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and
  • (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
So neither essence nor relation involves real distinction, only person.

This agrees with St. Thomas Aquinas in that the relations are the essence, and the real distinction is in opposition not in essence. St. Thomas wrote::…divine simplicity requires that in God essence is the same as “suppositum”

… in God relations are subsistent, and so by reason of the opposition between them they distinguish the “supposita”.

But relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking; while as referred to an opposite relation, it has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition. Thus there are one essence and three persons."
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Dear Vico

So this the problem:

1.Both relation and essence are real.

2.Relation is not the essence.

3.Each person has both essence and relation.

4.So persons are not simple: Person= essence + relation

Result: Persons can’t be God, because God is simple.

I will be pleased if you solve this problem.
 
javid said:
Dear Daniel

If distinction us the essence, then persons of trinity do not have real ditinction. Distinction is what one has and others do not have, but essence is what is common in persons. So real distinction can’t be the essence, unless you ignore unique or simicity of God.
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Dear Javid,
Distinction is not the essence, in the case of Adam and Eve they have the same essence human but have distinction in gender. It’s simple the distinction is the father is the source and the Son is the begotten expression of that source.
It’s not hard, it becomes more difficult when the Son takes flesh because he then has two essences in one person.
Life in the glorious Son, who alone is from the Father’s very substance.
Daniel
4unity.net
 
javid said:
Dear Vico

So this the problem:

1.Both relation and essence are real.
2.Relation is not the essence.
3.Each person has both essence and relation.
4.So persons are not simple: Person= essence + relation

Result: Persons can’t be God, because God is simple.

I will be pleased if you solve this problem.
Click to expand...
This is an error: “Relation is not the essence.”

St. Thomas Aquinas (Summa Part I, Q28, Art 2) explains it:Thus it is manifest that relation really existing in God is really the same as His essence and only differs in its mode of intelligibility; as in relation is meant that regard to its opposite which is not expressed in the name of essence. Thus it is clear that in God relation and essence do not differ from each other, but are one and the same.

newadvent.org/summa/1028.htm#article1
 
4unity said:
Dear Javid,
Distinction is not the essence, in the case of Adam and Eve they have the same essence human but have distinction in gender. It’s simple the distinction is the father is the source and the Son is the begotten expression of that source.
It’s not hard, it becomes more difficult when the Son takes flesh because he then has two essences in one person.
Life in the glorious Son, who alone is from the Father’s very substance.
Daniel
4unity.net
Click to expand...
Dear Daniel

Your example does not work, because Adam and Eve were two humen, But Persons Are One God. Yes our essences are same, but there are billion human essences in the world. And my essence is not my father’s essence.

Now if distinction is not the essence, and if both distinction and essence are real, Then each person has a essence and a distinction, so the person can’t be God because He is not simple and God is simle.
 
Vico said:
This is an error: “Relation is not the essence.”

St. Thomas Aquinas (Summa Part I, Q28, Art 2) explains it:Thus it is manifest that relation really existing in God is really the same as His essence and only differs in its mode of intelligibility; as in relation is meant that regard to its opposite which is not expressed in the name of essence. Thus it is clear that in God relation and essence do not differ from each other, but are one and the same.

newadvent.org/summa/1028.htm#article1
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Dear Vico

If relation is the essence, then relation is not the distinction, because distinction can’t be what is common between persons.
 
javid said:
Dear Daniel

Your example does not work, because Adam and Eve were two humen, But Persons Are One God. Yes our essences are same, but there are billion human essences in the world. And my essence is not my father’s essence.

Now if distinction is not the essence, and if both distinction and essence are real, Then each person has a essence and a distinction, so the person can’t be God because He is not simple and God is simle.
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Dear Javid,
Sorry this is my last post to you. Adam and Eve are one. Eve alone doesn’t reveal the entire human essence. It takes both genders to fully reveal the one human nature. Even the Jehovah Witness cult in there own Translation calls Jesus the only begotten God. See John 1:18. The Father can’t be eternally Father without an Eternal Son.

Also even though women do not come directory from their husbands substance like Eve did - God has designed marriage to unite man and women as one flesh. Humanity consists of two genders not just one gender. We are also a multiplication of our first parents Adam and Eve. , the difference is the flesh of humans is uncomparable to the flesh of other creatures like apes and monkeys. Just like the spirit of the Father and the Son cannot be compared with our spirit or the spirit of the angels etc.

Be careful not to deny that Jesus is the true God as he said he will deny those who deny him in front of his Father who is in heaven.

Life in the Son and in his name.
Daniel
 
javid said:
Dear Vico

If relation is the essence, then relation is not the distinction, because distinction can’t be what is common between persons.
Click to expand...
Relation is the essence. There is no real distinction in the essence. There is real distinction in the opposition of persons. Note that the Catechism states the term relation designates “the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others”. What St. Thomas Aquinas wrote (posted before) is that "But relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking; while as referred to an opposite relation, it has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition. Thus there are one essence and three persons."252 The Church uses
  • (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity,
  • (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and
  • (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
 
Vico you are doing a great job trying to explain it and you are spot on when it comes to relations.

One of the things I think you are missing is the discussion of accidents and how relation is not your typical accident.

An accident is simple, it is something that is added on to the substance. So when I say water is clear, the substance water has the accident clear added on to it. Clearness is not a part of the substance water rather it is added on to it. Ice many times isn’t clear and is foggy but that is still the substance of water.

The problem is God can have no accidents in him, that would destroy his simplicity.

So why use relation, which is an accident, to talk about distinction in the Godhead. Well it is pretty simple. Relation actually doesn’t add anything on to the substance, rather it only talks about how the thing is in relation to something else. For example, James is sitting next to Joe. In this sentence next to is the accident of relation. Next to doesn’t add anything onto james or joe’s substance. them being next to each other has no impact on their substance.

Now we apply this to the divine God head. We know from scripture that God is a trinity of persons. Father Son and Holy Spirit. Relation can show us how we can have distinction without destroying the simplicity. The Father is related to the Son as being a father, only he is the father. The Son is related to the Father by b wing a son, only he is the son. The Spirit is related to the Father and Son by being the spirit that passes in-between both persons. Each person of the trinity because of relation has something that makes them different from one another. What allows it to keep the simplicity is that relation doesn’t add anything on to the substance.

I hope you understand
 
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