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Seraphim73
Guest
God is not plus anything.
- Status
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
It appears your applying rigid terms to the mystery of the blessed Trinity see CCC 248.
Paternity is essential, because it points to the principle source, who is the Father as “principle without principle”, The Father is the first origin of the Spirit.
From which the Trinity reveals God’s presence in procession from heaven, when the Father proceeds from no one. The Father is distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit in presence.
The Father is with the Son, but also Father of the only Son. Father (paternity) is the single principle (origin) from which the Holy Spirit proceeds.
Each person does not have paternity of procession, only the Father, who begets the Son from which the Holy Spirit proceeds. This reveals the Father is greater than the Son, who begets a Son. The Son does not beget another. The Son is “eternally” begotten of the Father, who sends the Son.
Here we enter a mystery of God revealing His presence in Trinity, by extolling the Trinity without extorting the Monarch.
The Essence of God is veiled in God’s presence, God’s Essence is not revealed in space and time. Paternity of the Father reveals He does not proceed but is the origin and principle without principle from the Trinity of persons reveals God’s presence to space and time.
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javid
Guest
Dear Vico
I know What is simplicity.
Please answer the question.
I think we talked about it!
J
javid
Guest
Dear Gabriel
If Paternity is Essential, God the son must has it, if else there is some essential thing that Son does not have it, so he can’t be God. So God the son is father as God the father is, So there can’t be any distinction between them.
My problem is not on the Origin.
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Vico
Guest
You wrote before: “And you said: “Person is essence”!! Absolutely it can’t be true, because Essence is One and Persons are three.”
A. Doctor of the Church, St. Thomas Aquinas wrote for Q. 39 (Article 1. Whether in God the essence is the same as the person?): Objection 2: “…person is distinct, whereas essence is not. Therefore person and essence are not the same.”
Reply to Objection 2: “As essence and person in God differ in our way of thinking, it follows that something can be denied of the one and affirmed of the other; and therefore, when we suppose the one, we need not suppose the other.”
And additionally for Q. 39 (Article 2. Whether it must be said that the three persons are of one essence?)"…in God the essence is taken as the** form** of the three persons, according to our mode of signification. … as in God the persons are multiplied, and the essence is not multiplied we speak of one essence **of **the three persons, and three persons of the one essence, provided that these genitives be understood as designating the form."
newadvent.org/summa/1039.htm#article2
Note that genitives refers to “of”.
The following may also be helpful for a general understanding of consubstantiality and mutual indwelling.
Catechism 253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85
Catechism 251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.82
252 The Church uses (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91
What is described in Catechism 255 is called mutual indwelling (perichoresis), the three persons indwell each other in one being so that:
*]The Father is in the Son.
*]The Son is in the Father.
*]The Father is in the Holy Spirit.
*]The Holy Spirit is in the Father.
*]The Son is in the Holy Spirit.
*]The Holy Spirit is in the Son.
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javid
Guest
Dear Vico
Yes asked: If Person is essence, why God has one Essence and three persons? you did not answer this. you just wrote some explanation about simplicity.
And saint Tomas did not answer this! he answered to another Question: “person is distinct, whereas essence is not. Therefore person and essence are not the same” I didn’t write this! He can’t say Essence is one and persons are three in our way of thinking, because Person are three and Essence is one. It is not way of thinking, it is the fact. If else, Holy Trinity is just a way of thinking and not a real fact anout God.
And He said: “in God the persons are multiplied” I do not understand what is this, but if He means that 1=1x1x1 I must say you that, if it be true we do not must believe in trinity:
1=1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1…
But you Didn’t answer me on paternity yet. If it is Essential, why Holy Spirit is not the father?
These all because you think distinction is in Essnce.
In Addition I know each Person is God.
Yes asked: If Person is essence, why God has one Essence and three persons? you did not answer this. you just wrote some explanation about simplicity.
And saint Tomas did not answer this! he answered to another Question: “person is distinct, whereas essence is not. Therefore person and essence are not the same” I didn’t write this! He can’t say Essence is one and persons are three in our way of thinking, because Person are three and Essence is one. It is not way of thinking, it is the fact. If else, Holy Trinity is just a way of thinking and not a real fact anout God.
And He said: “in God the persons are multiplied” I do not understand what is this, but if He means that 1=1x1x1 I must say you that, if it be true we do not must believe in trinity:
1=1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1…
But you Didn’t answer me on paternity yet. If it is Essential, why Holy Spirit is not the father?
These all because you think distinction is in Essnce.
In Addition I know each Person is God.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Paternity is essential because it reveals the beginning of God’s procession of how it relates divine revelation from God the Father through God the Son in God the Holy Spirit.
Paternity does not relate to God’s Essence, Essence apart from Paternity = Father, Begotten = Son, Holy Spirit proceeding is what each “distinct” person of the Trinity is consubstantial.
Paternity distinct from the only begotten, reveals the Father is greater than the Son, not in Essence, but in procession = revelation. Which I introduced to you, that the Father is greater than the Son because the Eternal procession begins in the paternal Father.
It is the procession or revelation of God that reveals the distinct qualities the Father has distinct from the Son. The Father eternally begets the Son, reveals it is from the paternity of the Father who proceeds from no one, begins the procession of God’s presence.
Beginning with the Father or His paternity from which the procession begins God’s revelation in God’s presence not essence.
Another way to look at God’s revelation which eternally proceeds and made present in space and time, deals with the subjects of presence and essence.
What makes the Father distinct from the Son is revealed in the person (al) presence when the Essence of all persons of the Trinity is veiled in each distinct person’s presence. For example the Voice = Father is distinct from the Word = Son, distinct from the breath = Holy Spirit. Each distinct person is fully God in Essence veiled in Presence.
When we can say the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father and the Holy Spirit is not the Son or the Father.
Paternity relates to the Father’s presence revealed in the procession of the Trinity which God’s presence revealed to our humanity and creation. The holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son in one spiration of Love.
Do not think that the paternity is revealing a distinct quality of the Father’s Essence, which the Son does not have. Everything the Father has the Son has, because the Father gives everything to the Son except being Father, because the Son does not beget another, or the Son does not begin the eternal procession of God’s revelation, the paternity of the Father begins Gods revelation.
The Father and the Son are consubstantial, not divided, separated or confused. The paternity only relates to the Father’s procession is distinct from the Son’s procession. The Father begins the procession which is His paternity, which does not proceed from no one and from His paternity eternally begets the only begotten Son.
The more we ask questions as you do, and the more we contemplate the mystery of the Trinity, the more our understanding can grow with the understanding that the Trinity is one God and no other, which no one can define God with a definition. The economy of the Trinity of persons reveals God revealing His presence to God’s creation and our humanity, with human terms describing divine revealed spiritual realities in spiritual terms, with the mind of Christ.
Paternity applied to the Father, points to God’s revelation of procession begins from the Father, in and with the Son, whom the Father sends from His Voice in the Word who is God the Son in God’s presence distinct from the God the Father’s presence in procession but who are one God consubstantial in presence One God and no other, never forgetting the Holy Spirit proceeds from both.
Peace be with you
V
Vico
Guest
You ask to many questions to answer in one post.
These two:
- You wrote: “It is not way of thinking, it is the fact. If else, Holy Trinity is just a way of thinking and not a real fact about God.”
and - You wrote: “But you Didn’t answer me on paternity yet. If it is Essential, why Holy Spirit is not the Father?”
The two considerations are:
- relation as referred to the essence (not real, so one essence)
- relation as referred to an opposite relation (real, so three persons)
There are two considerations:
- relation as referred to the essence (not real, so Father and Holy Spirit are one essence)
- relation as referred to an opposite relation (real, so Father is not the Holy Spirit)
- You wrote: “If Person is essence, why God has one Essence and three persons?”
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javid
Guest
Dear Gabriel
Thank you, But I don’t think so. Every existing thing is in God’ Essence, Specially if it be Essential. For Example God has life in himself, and he gave it to us.
If Paternity is really existing, It must be in God’s Essence and so it is shared between persons. So God the son and Holy Spirit have it.
If it is not Existing, it can’t be out of Essence but then God the Father has two Parts: Essence and Paternity. But God is simple.
J
javid
Guest
Dear Vico
Hi. Sorry if my Question are many to answer in one post.
2.A one simple being can’t be two!
So: How In one way father is holy spirit and in another way father is not holy spirit? It is Contradiction.
But it is not the problem:
As I said to Gabriel, Every existing thing is in God’ Essence, Specially if it be Essential. For Example God has life in himself, and he gave it to us. If Paternity is really existing, It must be in God’s Essence and so it is shared between persons. So God the son and Holy Spirit have it.
Hi. Sorry if my Question are many to answer in one post.
1.God is One and Simple.
2.A one simple being can’t be two!
So: How In one way father is holy spirit and in another way father is not holy spirit? It is Contradiction.
But it is not the problem:
As I said to Gabriel, Every existing thing is in God’ Essence, Specially if it be Essential. For Example God has life in himself, and he gave it to us. If Paternity is really existing, It must be in God’s Essence and so it is shared between persons. So God the son and Holy Spirit have it.
I asked a question on it in my last post. You can answer it. I asked What you mean multipied? What does it mean: The father x The son x Holy spirit? It is meaningless. If God has just one simple essence, It is impossible to three distinct persons to be it!
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Vico
Guest
- There is one essence.
- Person (opposition of relation) is essence.
- There is not really three persons in the essence, only by our thinking.
- But there is a real difference in opposition of relations. According to Aristotle categories, relation does not cause composition in essence.
You said: “shared between persons. So God the son and Holy Spirit have it.”
Yes, in each other.
The Father is in the Son and in the Holy Spirit.
The Son is in the Holy Spirit and in the Father.
The Holy Spirit is in the Father and in the Son.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
javid, thank you for your response, and I am sorry if my comments are not adequate enough to portray what my faith expresses.
I must declare although, that not every existing thing is in God’s Essence. God’s Essence is not revealed in space and time, God’s Essence is undefinable in human terms and is not approachable on this side of death.
Every thing visible and invisible is created by God. All things existing exist because God is Existence itself. God created those things which God calls Good. They are good in what God created them perfect in themselves, things created do not share God’s Essence.
If your logic were true, "Every existing thing is in God’s Essence, then you are saying in essence (no pun intended) that all creation is a god. Here we introduce a much larger topic of discussion.
God created man from dirt and water. God breathed into man’s nostrils a breath (life) of spirit. This spirit man possesses in his flesh as one, is not God’s Essence. Just as the angels are spirits without flesh. We do not worship the angels as if they are a god. Because the Angels who are spirit do not share God’s Essence, these spirits are in God’s presence, with the Essence of God that is not approachable by Angels.
The Seraphim Angels are the closest to God’s presence divine Essence, and these are inflamed Angels. Something to ponder, when Jesus teaches; “NO ONE has ever seen the Father except the Son, because the Son comes from the Father, and the Father and the Son is One”. If anyone see’s God’s Essence they will surely die.
Paternity is not an Essence of God. Paternity is a human word used to describe the beginning of God’s revelation in procession from eternal Essence existing to creation. God’s revelation begins with the Father (who is paternal, Monarch) and the Son in the Holy Spirit.
Paternity begins the procession of God’s revelation from the Father who does not proceed from no one.
God’s presence (not God’s Essence) is made known in the only begotten Son Jesus Christ, who proceeds from the Father in full Essence divine that is veiled with His presence incarnate.
To say Paternity is God’s Essence, is to say you know God’s Essence, when no one in history has ever attempted to define God’s Essence. And those that tried, were confirmed lunatics or heretics. Only God’s presence is made known to creation, God’s Essence is not revealed in space and time.
Paternity exist only in pointing to the origin by which God’s presence is made known to us.
God the Father never has two parts. God’s Essence is eternal existence itself. The paternity reveals God is Love. God is one. Paternity is Father who is God in presence. The only begotten of the Father is the Son. Begotten is not God’s Essence, the begotten is Love (Son) proceeds from Love (Father) in Love (Holy Spirit).
Can you please clarify your definition and understanding of Paternity God the Father? It would help me out, to introduce to you some of the early Church Father’s quotes on this particular subjects to help clarify contemplative teachings into the mystery of the Trinity.
Peace be with you
J
javid
Guest
Dear Vico
It is out of topic but if “person is Essence” then Three distinct persons can be one Essnce? Can you imagine a coin which is 100% golden and 100% silvern and 100% Bronze? So we can’t say person is Essence.
Anyway my problem is on distinction. let’s talk on it.
Thank you very much, But absolutely I know what it means! As you said multiply has meaning for numbers, not for persons!
It is meaningless to say: God= The Father x The Son x Holy spirit
On the Other hand, with such formulation we can imagine more than three persons:
1=1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1…
My problem is not on it. I said if paternity is Essential so it is in Essence and so it is shred between persons and therefor Each person has it and so paternity can’t be a distinction and a special attribute for the Father.
J
javid
Guest
Dear Gabriel
Thank you for your explanation. I think I must explain my problem:
Let me know : Is paternity a Real being or Abstract being? If it is a Abstract being, so it can’t be a distinction, But if it is a Real being, is it in Essence or out of it? if it is in Essence so each person has it and it can’t be a distinction, if it is out of essence, then God the father has two parts: Essence and paternity.
Thank you for your explanation. I think I must explain my problem:
Let me know : Is paternity a Real being or Abstract being? If it is a Abstract being, so it can’t be a distinction, But if it is a Real being, is it in Essence or out of it? if it is in Essence so each person has it and it can’t be a distinction, if it is out of essence, then God the father has two parts: Essence and paternity.
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Vico
Guest
There is only one divine being. Person, in God, signifies a relation subsisting in the divine nature, not an independent being. Aquinas states that Father is a divine proper name with respect to the form or perfection sense, but still recognizes the metaphor. The names and modes in which they subsist are what differentiate the persons. Aquinas explained that relation of opposition must be passive not active. Passive means not based on action.
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javid
Guest
Dear Vico
Why you just discuss on relations again and again? Absolutely, relations do not solve my problem.
We discussed on many cases in this thread, but at least, you just back to relations. Relations between persons is a fact, but it does not solve my problem.
Please just answer me on Paternity.
V
Vico
Guest
There is only one divine being. Paternity, is not an independent being. Father is a divine proper name with respect to the form or perfection sense. Your statements are about being:
- Is paternity a Real being or Abstract being?
- If paternity is a Real being, is paternity in Essence or out of it?
252 The Church uses (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
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Seraphim73
Guest
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Vico
Guest
Philosophy is daunting. Yet it all makes sense when you know the terms:
Q. If you have 4 pencils and I have 7 apples, how may pancakes will fit on the roof?
A. Purple, because aliens don’t wear hats.
Sherlock Holms School of Reasoning Analysis
Hat dealers always carry 4 pencils. You sell hats.
I am an alien and we are known to use apples in trade.
Pancake is a type of hat.
The price of a hat is 7 apples.
Roof is a slang term for the head.
Purple is the color code for none.
J
javid
Guest
Dear Vico,
I know that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others, But my Questions are clear. Please answer them and let’s solve it step by step:
Is paternity a Real being or Abstract being? I
If it is a Real being, is it in Essence or out of it?
Please answer the Questions by “Yes” or “NO”. I’ll help me, by this way.
Best Regards
- Status