Peter being declared pope argument

[Startingcatholic]

Hi I was texting my friend about how my views on sexuality have changed and we somehow got into the topic of the church being built on peter and therefore the Catholic Church being Jesus.
This is the conversation any help?
Me: If you look in the old testament in Sodom that is a condemnation of homosexuality and the church that Jesus built being the Catholic Church also infallibly declared it.
Him:The Old Testament speaks in reference to those that forced men into male prostitution for other men. Catholic Church wasn’t founded by Jesus either, the non-denominational church was likely to be founded by him however he told people to not spread his word knowing they would meaning churches were never formed by Jesus but his disciples did form them.

Me: I’m sorry but you are absolutely wrong when saying the Catholic Church was not founded by Jesus when he said Cephas (his apostle Peter) Upon you I build my church he made peter the head of his church (Pope) Once Peter was martyred the church Cardinals or at That time would’ve simply been the bishops because of the smallness of the faith voted in a new pope. We also see him bestowing his holy spirit on the apostles who then went on to bestow this gift onto others.
Me:*I didn’t mean to say holy spirit I meant ability to forgive sins

Him:If your quoting the Old Testament then you yourself are wrong. If you actually read the untranslated testament then you would know that he never said that. However, due to the desire to use religion as a means to obtain power and money, when it was “translated” the words were altered.

Me: Okay send me the untranslated forms then.

Him:Unless you can legitimately read them, there would be no point. Can you speak and read Hebrew?

Me:That’s not the point what I’m asking for is sources because it’s easy to make a claim without the evidence to back it up and I’m simply asking for the evidence.

Him: it is easily arguable to say the same for your points. All facts consider there is no way to prove that Catholicism is correct however, based on the unified thought on Christ most can assume with relative ease that Catholics aren’t correct. Especially since their religion was founded through war and money just like Islam and many other. This would mean that if you believe in Catholicism then Islam is practically the same and you should believe in it.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Catholic Church wasn’t founded by Jesus either, the non-denominational church was likely to be founded by him however he told people to not spread his word knowing they would meaning churches were never formed by Jesus but his disciples did form them.

So where are the historical witnesses to such a nondenominational church? there is no evidence for it… even such nondenominational christian churches did not exist before the 20th century… would Jesus intend for everyone to be in error for some 1900 years? I don’t think so…

 

[Bird_lover]

It would be interesting to know if the untranslated testaments to which your friend refers are written in Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic, or Latin. Not that this helps your argument

 

[po18guy]

Who gave him authority to interpret God’s word?

 

[Gorgias]

Me: Okay send me the untranslated forms then.

Him:Unless you can legitimately read them, there would be no point. Can you speak and read Hebrew?

Can he? More to the point, doesn’t he subscribe to an authority who interprets? What does that authority say?

based on the unified thought on Christ most can assume with relative ease that Catholics aren’t correct.

Argumentam ad populam. What “most can assume” does not prove anything.

Especially since their religion was founded through war and money just like Islam and many other.

The Catholic Church was founded by Christ, and started ministering at Pentecost. What’s the “through war and money” at Pentecost?

(Really, he’s making a claim about the Roman Empire, and is not substantiating his claims.)

This would mean that if you believe in Catholicism then Islam is practically the same and you should believe in it.

His “Christianity” was founded by Jews and included synagogue worship. So then, Judaism is “practically the same”, and so, he should believe in it.

[Jesus] told people to not spread his word knowing they would meaning churches were never formed by Jesus but his disciples did form them.

For someone who claims deep knowledge of Hebrew, his understanding of the Greek Scriptures of the New Testament is rather weak! Jesus asked for silence prior to His resurrection – but the Gospels relate that He commanded his apostles (upon whom He founded His Church) to make disciples of all nations! Jesus literally commanded what your friend says He did not!

 

[Thom18]

Startingcatholic:

Catholic Church wasn’t founded by Jesus either, the non-denominational church was likely to be founded by him however he told people to not spread his word knowing they would meaning churches were never formed by Jesus but his disciples did form them.

So where are the historical witnesses to such a nondenominational church? there is no evidence for it… even such nondenominational christian churches did not exist before the 20th century… would Jesus intend for everyone to be in error for some 1900 years? I don’t think so…

The Catholic Church was the first non-denominational Church anyways

 

[Startingcatholic]

Thanks for the help! I just feel like I dug myself into a hole in the argument and I don’t know how get out of it.

 

[UltimateChikorita]

something extremely powerful is using how the early Christians interpreted Scripture
an example is here, from Tertullian, an early Christian author who lived in the second and third centuries. Early Christians were fairly explicit about this passage

TERTULLIAN
On Modesty
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0407.htm
Chapter 21
I now inquire into your opinion, (to see) from what source you usurp this right to “the Church.”

If, because the Lord has said to Peter, “Upon this rock will I build My Church,” “to you have I given the keys of the heavenly kingdom;” or, “Whatsoever you shall have bound or loosed in earth, shall be bound or loosed in the heavens,” you therefore presume that the power of binding and loosing has derived to you, that is, to every Church akin to Peter, what sort of man are you, subverting and wholly changing the manifest intention of the Lord, conferring (as that intention did) this (gift) personally upon Peter? " On you," He says, “will I build My Church;” and, “I will give to you the keys,” not to the Church; and, “Whatsoever you shall have loosed or bound,” not what they shall have loosed or bound. For so withal the result teaches. In (Peter) himself the Church was reared; that is, through (Peter) himself; (Peter) himself essayed the key; you see what (key): “Men of Israel, let what I say sink into your ears: Jesus the Nazarene, a man destined by God for you,” and so forth.

 

[adf417]

If you actually read the untranslated testament then you would know that he never said that.

All facts consider there is no way to prove that Catholicism is correct

The one fact he is not considering is the fact that there are no original “untranslated” documents and there haven’t been for many years. So these “untranslated” documents he speaks of are copies of originals. Maybe even copies of copies of copies.

Now the question is who made these copies and who made the copies these copies came from? Then the following question is, and what was their intent/belief?

Answer: catholic monks. The Catholic church preserved the sacred writings from the beginning complete with all the “textural errors” seen in the many copies we have available today.

Source: my favorite non-Catholic historian Bart Ehrman. Its always fulfilling when a non-Catholic proves the Catholic position.

Peace!!!

 

[AlbMagno]

Can you speak and read Hebrew?

The New Testament was written in Greek. I think your friend thought that the quote was from the Old Testament though.

 

[Justin_Mary]

This is the conversation any help?

I think you did fine. Now, pray. Pray regularly. Pray for understanding, for you & your friend. Persevere in prayer. Never stop seeking the truth.

 

[Gorgias]

I think your friend thought that the quote was from the Old Testament though.

He was talking about Sodom, wasn’t he?

 

[AlbMagno]

He replied about the Hebrew when the OP talked about Matthew 16:18

 

[annad347]

did Jesus give Peter the title of Pope or Bishop, or did He just say on you I will build my church?

 

[Gorgias]

did Jesus give Peter the title of Pope or Bishop, or did He just say on you I will build my church?

No, but He did give Peter “the keys to the kingdom”, which is a reference to the position of the king’s “governor of the palace” (or, in modern terms, I’ve heard folks attempt to describe it as his “prime minister”).

The actual titles “pope” and “bishop” came much later. By the same token, on the day you were born, you weren’t able to call your mother “Mom” – that came much later, too. However, does that mean that she wasn’t your Mom on the day she gave birth to you?

 

[annad347]

By the same token, on the day you were born, you weren’t able to call your mother “Mom”– that came much later, too. However, does that mean that she wasn’t your Mom on the day she gave birth to you?

Not if I was created in a dish then implanted into a women who gave birth to me… then no, she wasn’t my mom when she gave birth to me, she was just someone who gave birth to me.

My point was that Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom… but everything that followed after that created either by Peter or other people to who voted them for it… so wouldn’t that mean all the rules and titles where created by Peter. Jesus accepted them doesn’t mean He created them.

Well created might be the wrong word… maybe something not so powerful… cause Adam named the animals, given them titles we use to this day, but as far as I know Adam never created an animal. God accepted them but doesn’t mean Adam created any animals, he just named them. So created might be the wrong word. Maybe established, named… labeled, titled? Jesus did create the church on Peter. The foundation of the church was created on Peter, but everything that followed was established by Peter… then it grew from there.

 

[Thom18]

Jesus did create the church on Peter. The foundation of the church was created on Peter, but everything that followed was established by Peter… then it grew from there.

Once Jesus ascended, He was no longer on earth to teach the apostles as He had once been. And so, He established a visible leadership on Peter, to be given to his successors much like Moses to Joseph, David to Solomon, etc. Moses’ main role was that of lawgiver (which the Pope acts as, with the Magisterium). David’s main role was that of king, maintaining order and unity within the kingdom of Israel (even if he didn’t do so well). And of course, the term we use to describe the roles will vary across time and languages. This doesn’t negate their role.

I’m tempted to say that Jesus isn’t too concerned with titles; all all, He is referred to as Son of Man, Son of God, Son of David, Messiah, Christ, King of the Universe, etc. As long as they accurately describe the person whose title they are (with “Pope” essentially meaning “Papa”, with all priests being referred to as “Father”), does it matter?

 

[CathoRick]

Him:The Old Testament speaks in reference to those that forced men into male prostitution for other men

Well, he certainly ignored your statement. The OT also speaks in reference to the men of Sodom attempting to rape the (male) angels that visited Lot, among other things, which is what I assume you were referring to. Many Prots pick and choose scripture that fit their own personal agenda, while ignoring anything that discredits it. Forget context!

Catholic Church wasn’t founded by Jesus either, the non-denominational church was likely to be founded by him however he told people to not spread his word

Anti-Biblical and anti-historical nonsense.

As for all that gibberish about Hebrew, I’m assuming he’s not aware that the language has changed considerably since the Old Testament. I was friends with a Protestant who sounds just like your friend OP, and for the sake of my sanity, had to cut my ties with him.

 

[annad347]

I’m tempted to say that Jesus isn’t too concerned with titles; all all, He is referred to as Son of Man, Son of God, Son of David, Messiah, Christ, King of the Universe, etc. As long as they accurately describe the person whose title they are (with “Pope” essentially meaning “Papa”, with all priests being referred to as “Father”), does it matter?

Not to God but to humans titles matter.

A title define a person, gives them a sense of being. People are treated a certain way based on their title. Some people feel less than, while others feel powerful, just by the title given to them by society. It still happens in today society imagine how powerful a title can be to society in the past.

When the church established by Peter expanded… giving themselves titles like Pope, Bishops, Papa it gave them and others a sense of power. People in the time probably helped with that because, basically they didn’t know any better.

IMO… it was that sense of power that allowed The Catholic church, to declare itself as the one true church… And it was money and power given to them, by the kings &/or leaders at the time, that gave them the power to expand on it… but like I said this is totally my opinion… just something I’ve been thinking about while question why I’m Catholic.

 

[annad347]

Oh just so you know, I don’t disagree with OP… the church was created by Jesus on Peter. I agree Peter has the keys to the kingdom… and I pray Jesus allows Peter to open those gates when I arrive.