Peter Kreeft: Catholics Can Learn from Muslim Devotion

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Says Secularism a Bigger Threat Than Islam

MERRIMACK, New Hampshire, DEC. 19, 2010 (Zenit.org).- In a lively debate held last month on the Thomas More College of Liberal Arts, two renowned speakers on theology met to discuss the topic “Is the only Good Muslim a Bad Muslim?”

Peter Kreeft, a professor of philosophy at Boston College and well-known Catholic apologist and author of over 45 books, engaged in a two-hour debate with Robert Spencer, an internationally known scholar and major critic of Islam.

Both men shared their common and opposing views on Islam before a full audience of spectators. While the men seemed to agree that strict adherence to the Muslim faith can, for some of its 1 billion followers, lead to violence and the mistreatment of women, Spencer likened the peaceful Muslim who does not follow such thinking to a lax Catholic who “practices birth control or support legal abortion. They are defying their religion, because they do not have the authority to reform to it,” he said.

In the debate, as well as in his book, Between Allah and Jesus, Kreeft focused on the “theological essence of Islam, which is a radical submission to the will of God.” He compared the devout Muslim’s readiness to serve God to the “humility and obedience displayed by Christian saints.”

He also commented that this example could serve as a lesson to today’s Catholics, “who all too often treat the demands made by their own faith as mere suggestions, to be taken or rejected by the self-directed individual conscience.”

Kreeft followed his assertions by adding that Muslims have high birth rates and they reject both abortion and pornography: "[Muslims] postpone gratification, and pay forward the gift of life to new generations – something far too few Christians are doing in our time.”

zenit.org/article-31287?l=english

Here is the debate between Kreeft and Spencer: youtube.com/watch?v=UMtqCapeVRA
 
Says Secularism a Bigger Threat Than Islam

MERRIMACK, New Hampshire, DEC. 19, 2010 (Zenit.org).- In a lively debate held last month on the Thomas More College of Liberal Arts, two renowned speakers on theology met to discuss the topic “Is the only Good Muslim a Bad Muslim?”

Peter Kreeft, a professor of philosophy at Boston College and well-known Catholic apologist and author of over 45 books, engaged in a two-hour debate with Robert Spencer, an internationally known scholar and major critic of Islam.

Both men shared their common and opposing views on Islam before a full audience of spectators. While the men seemed to agree that strict adherence to the Muslim faith can, for some of its 1 billion followers, lead to violence and the mistreatment of women, Spencer likened the peaceful Muslim who does not follow such thinking to a lax Catholic who “practices birth control or support legal abortion. They are defying their religion, because they do not have the authority to reform to it,” he said.

In the debate, as well as in his book, Between Allah and Jesus, Kreeft focused on the “theological essence of Islam, which is a radical submission to the will of God.” He compared the devout Muslim’s readiness to serve God to the “humility and obedience displayed by Christian saints.”

He also commented that this example could serve as a lesson to today’s Catholics, “who all too often treat the demands made by their own faith as mere suggestions, to be taken or rejected by the self-directed individual conscience.”

Kreeft followed his assertions by adding that Muslims have high birth rates and they reject both abortion and pornography: "[Muslims] postpone gratification, and pay forward the gift of life to new generations – something far too few Christians are doing in our time.”

zenit.org/article-31287?l=english

Here is the debate between Kreeft and Spencer: youtube.com/watch?v=UMtqCapeVRA
Kreeft is correct. If Catholics showed the same prayer discipline (e.g. Daily Office) and adhered to Church teaching, we would have a much different world. I know I fall way too short in the prayer side of things.
 
Secularism (pop culture media) is destroying relationships by reducing people into acting on basest instincts for lewd sex and drugs. Better relationships can be found by free willingly reducing our exposure to it.
 
Says Secularism a Bigger Threat Than Islam

MERRIMACK, New Hampshire, DEC. 19, 2010 (Zenit.org).- In a lively debate held last month on the Thomas More College of Liberal Arts, two renowned speakers on theology met to discuss the topic “Is the only Good Muslim a Bad Muslim?”

Peter Kreeft, a professor of philosophy at Boston College and well-known Catholic apologist and author of over 45 books, engaged in a two-hour debate with Robert Spencer, an internationally known scholar and major critic of Islam.

Both men shared their common and opposing views on Islam before a full audience of spectators. While the men seemed to agree that strict adherence to the Muslim faith can, for some of its 1 billion followers, lead to violence and the mistreatment of women, Spencer likened the peaceful Muslim who does not follow such thinking to a lax Catholic who “practices birth control or support legal abortion. They are defying their religion, because they do not have the authority to reform to it,” he said.

In the debate, as well as in his book, Between Allah and Jesus, Kreeft focused on the “theological essence of Islam, which is a radical submission to the will of God.” He compared the devout Muslim’s readiness to serve God to the “humility and obedience displayed by Christian saints.”

He also commented that this example could serve as a lesson to today’s Catholics, “who all too often treat the demands made by their own faith as mere suggestions, to be taken or rejected by the self-directed individual conscience.”

Kreeft followed his assertions by adding that Muslims have high birth rates and they reject both abortion and pornography: "[Muslims] postpone gratification, and pay forward the gift of life to new generations – something far too few Christians are doing in our time.”

zenit.org/article-31287?l=english

Here is the debate between Kreeft and Spencer: youtube.com/watch?v=UMtqCapeVRA
I cannot argue with Kreeft. He hit the nail on the head with this one!

I wonder how quickly the world would convert to Christ if those who follow Islam converted to Catholicism? I think it would be almost overnight (in historical time perspective).

Muslims would make far better Catholics than most of our current Catholic brethren, who are, at best weak in their practice of the faith!
 
Spencer likened the peaceful Muslim who does not follow such thinking to a lax Catholic who “practices birth control or support legal abortion. They are defying their religion, because they do not have the authority to reform to it,” he said.
Although I agree with the statement, since Muslims have no one real authoritative office, I don’t see how a non-Muslim can speak for Muslims.
He also commented that this example could serve as a lesson to today’s Catholics, “who all too often treat the demands made by their own faith as mere suggestions, to be taken or rejected by the self-directed individual conscience.”
Kreeft followed his assertions by adding that Muslims have high birth rates and they reject both abortion and pornography: "[Muslims] postpone gratification, and pay forward the gift of life to new generations – something far too few Christians are doing in our time.”
Three cheers for Peter Kreeft!!
 
Kreeft makes some good points. Muslim single minded devotion to the will of God and submission to God is a mirror of the Christian saints’ single minded devotion to following the will of God.

The only question that worries me is whether from the Muslim view, such submission must include the waging of war on non-Muslims.
 
I imagine that Peter Kreeft is correct. He is a well known and trusted philosopher and apologist, I’m not. Therefore, I trust him on this issue.
 
I don’t see how it is a good idea to compare Islam, a religion which is entirely false and is in essence “submission” to nothing but the ravings of a mad brigand, and the religion of the Living God. How can the two even be compared? You cannot have a relationship with Allah, because there is no Allah. You can have a relationship with Jesus Christ, because He is real.
 
I don’t see how it is a good idea to compare Islam, a religion which is entirely false
Islam is entirely false? Islam teaches there is only one God. So are you saying there isn’t only one God?
You cannot have a relationship with Allah, because there is no Allah.
Allah simply means God. Allah is the word for God in Catholic masses in arabic (notably the Maronite Rite). Are you saying there is no God?
 
Islam is entirely false? Islam teaches there is only one God. So are you saying there isn’t only one God?

Allah simply means God. Allah is the word for God in Catholic masses in arabic (notably the Maronite Rite). Are you saying there is no God?
While “Allah” is the word for God in Arabic, the actual “name of God” in Christianity and Judaism is entirely different. Compare to the “99 names of God” in Islam, which to me seem more like attributes, and none of which are defined by “being” (I AM).

While there are many aspects of several faiths (commitment to proselytizing in JW and LDS, Buddhist detachment from material goods), it does not bely the fact that the rest of the articles of faith are severely flawed.

In other words, a God by any other name isn’t just as sweet.
 
You cannot have a relationship with Allah, because there is no Allah. You can have a relationship with Jesus Christ, because He is real.
The Catholic Catechism states that the Moslems worship the same one God that we do.

If you doubt the Catechism, you are free to start your own religion and malign Islam and Catholicism both. 😦
 
At 6am, noon and 6pm—Some of the Catholic Churches I know of ring their bells-calling to prayer-the Angelus.

I’ll betcha years ago, Catholics stopped what they were doing-and prayed the Angelus.

Granted, I don’t know what goes on inside the homes surrounding the Church-within earshot. And today -vs- years ago, windows are closed and air conditioners run in the summer. Also, people just don’t go outside as much anymore-or sit on their porches.

How many Catholics pray the Angelus at 6-12-6 anymore?

Do we all pull out our Rosaries at 3 o’clock for the Divine Mercy Chaplet?

When I was an International Flight Attendant, at sun up, the Jewish men would all go to the back of the aircraft, stand, and pray their prayers, while the women covered their heads and prayed in their seats.

How many of us pray the Prayer of the Church, the Liturgy of the Hours/Divine Office throughout the day-each day?

We Catholics could learn some things from both the Muslims and Jewish faithful, in this regard.

God Bless you.
+Peace On Earth, Good Will Toward Men.
Love, Dawn
 
Kreeft makes some good points. Muslim single minded devotion to the will of God and submission to God is a mirror of the Christian saints’ single minded devotion to following the will of God.

The only question that worries me is whether from the Muslim view, such submission must include the waging of war on non-Muslims.
That would be the point that Spencer continually makes
Absolute submission to God, as revealed in the Koran, and as expressed in his ‘holy’ government, would inevitably lead to that.

The thing about Christianity is that doubt is built into the system. As much as Christians would love to enforce the truth, we are always acutely aware that that infidel we are nailing to the tree may in fact be God.
The Son of man, Jesus gets labeled as the criminal, and barAbbas gets set free.

Oops.

Certainty in religion to the point of absolute submission and absolute devotion can be very, very comforting. It is good to know that God is on your side. It is assuring o believe that the ayatollahs and the Sadduccees and the pharisees are trusted people of God.

But that in the end is not what the Christian cross teaches.

At the heart of the religion, there is always always doubt.
 
That would be the point that Spencer continually makes
Absolute submission to God, as revealed in the Koran, and as expressed in his ‘holy’ government, would inevitably lead to that.
I think it’s important for people to understand Robert Spencer’s argument in the debate and try to discern it for themselves. Peter Kreeft quoting the catechism’s position on Islam is something I personally cannot subscribe to. And as far as I know, it’s not binding on any Catholic to be believed, either.
 
The Catholic Catechism states that the Moslems worship the same one God that we do
It states that we worship together the one merciful God. However, I’m not sure this means we worship the “same” God in the sense that we worship the undivided Holy Trinity, they worship God who’s primary essence is his oneness. Attributing God as Father is blasphemous for them. Everyone knows this. Their God is in reality very different from ours. Only in that they believe that they worship the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob as we do.

It’s interesting that Islam really didn’t bring anything new that’s worthy of admiration. In reality, Islam is a Christian heresy. Some have admirably held onto the early Christian practice of praying at prescribed hours of the day. I think it will be interesting to see how Islam will deal with relativism. Everyone assumes they will hold to the traditions of their faith by I’m not so sure.
 
Their is truth to this and Pagans can learn as well.

Dead horse beating time:

When Catholic I suggested to a friend the idea of a million Hail Mary’s for the conversion of our town.

She let me have it with both barrels. The usual I didn’t get prayer, one Hail Mary well said is better than a million poorly said (she refused to even acknowledge my question of 'What about a million ones said well and with devotion). It seemed at the time the Parish had the attitude of least I can do.

The Legion of Mary ended up doing a ONE Hail Mary a week deal I believe.
 
I would have never thought that the Church’s opinion on Islam could be binding on all Catholics to be believed, but apparently it is thanks to Lumen Gentium 16.

Robert Spencer gives a little insight into the god of Islam at around 1:22 to 1:25 of the debate, and there are plenty of other quotes in the Koran that can make you question how it’s even possible that we are talking about the same God of Christianity.

This is just unbelievable…

Anyway, hope everyone has a very Merry Christmas today.
 
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