Peter NOT "This Rock"???!!!

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Another important factor to consider is that in Holy Scripture, a name change has great significance for the future. Examples are Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Israel, Saul to Paul, and, of course Simon to Kepha (Rock translated into Greek as Petros, a masculine form of the feminine noun for rock, petra). Everything about Matthew’s description of Peter’s profession of faith at Caesarea Philippi (present-day Banias) portends Peter’s important and primary role in the early Church. To conclude otherwise defies common sense and displays an ignorant misunderstanding of Scripture and Jewish culture in ancient times. It also displays a stiff-necked resistance to Our Lord’s plan for entrusting the administration of His Church to weak human beings under the continual guidance of the Holy Spirit. Experience dictates that no successful organization can operate without competent management and clear lines of authority. Peter’s authority was clearly bestowed by Jesus and guaranteed by the presence of the Holy Spirit, despite the world, the flesh, and the devil. The Catholic Church founded by Our Lord on the foundation of Peter the Rock still persists after almost 2,000 years of periodic disasters from both inside and outside the Church.
 
So Myrrh, what denomination should I as a Catholic consider switching to if Catholicism is incorrect? Is it Sola Scriptura? Then what denominations interpretation of scripture should I accept? What do you do?
 
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ricatholic:
If you look at the tenses of the binding and lossing, then Peter can only bind and loose that which was already done in heaven.

BTW,I think that is the NAB version.

But that makes sense since Jesus wouldn’t abdicate His power to humans by binding Him to their decisions.

Peace
That’s funny…when God created the earth in six days and rested on the seventh, was He tired and needed to sit down, or was there a possibilty that God was giving human beings responsibilty to care for His creation? Seems to me that God was binding himself with an oath to Adam and Eve, entering into 'covenant’ perhaps? How else do you explain God punishing them for their disobediance? Is this not in a sense God binding himself to His people?

Why not with Peter? Perhaps God is more glorified when His weak fallen creatures accomplish His will and triumph over the kingdom of darkness! I would suggest re-examining salvation history with new eyes.😉
Mary concieved withoutsin pray for us
 
Read “Fathers know best” and you will see the true, the devil come with arguements against Christ’s Church: Catholic Church.

Somebody told that Jesus is the Rock, and he argued with 1Peter2 (6-7), but there is mentioned “cornerstone” and yes Jesus is the cornerstone, but in Matt. Jesus call Peter “upon this rock” and in the Apoc is mentioned that the new Jerusalem had 12 fundations, and Peter is first because he is the chief of the Apostles (Fathers tell us that “Peter became the chief”).
In Antick times when a building (eg: Temple) were constructed a big stone(cornerstone) was put near the fundation rock in the corner, so this corner stone sustained the foundation rock and all building. So Jesus put Peter as a fundation, so all Church must be built upon him, and Our Lord, the cornerstone, sustain the fundation stone and all Church(stones). In the Beibel language Jesus was called stone, and Peter the same, so this show that Peter is the Vicar of Christ (and “Feed my ships” of course), but Jesus sustain the foundation stone who is Peter.

For example, the Orthodox Schismatic Church sing at “Condac” at 30 June: “Stone Christ, upon the stone of faith…” - so oane is the meaning of the cornerstone is one: Jesus, and the other meaning of the fundations stone is Peter.

On 16 jan., in the “Minei”(it is a book of byzantine church, i don’t know it in english) is written: “Today, the fundation of the Church, Peter, the stone of faith, put in front of us his chain…The fundation* of the Church, the stone of faith, chief of apostles…the shephard of the flock of Christ, honored Peter, Rome you didn’t left, came to us…”

But the Orthodox Church didn’t keep the Sacred Tradition so they are the first Protestants and schismatics. During the first millenium Constantinople was manny times in schism, so this Church is from the beginning a schismatic one.

And there are more examples, but during the 1884-1885 the greeks changed the texts(they falsified a lot of texts at theis Councils, so they are experts) so they expeled the atributions of Peter: fundation of the Church, chief of Apostles, stone of faith etc. In 1913, thye “Holy” Sinod in Romania followed the examples from the greeks and escluded this atributions of Peter because the Orthodox Church sayes that the boos are wrong (the writings of Holy Fathers are wrong for the Orthodox Church).
My parents are orthodox (but my father is atheist), and in my father’s family was a tradition to have priest (a rich family), so I had access to those books.

It was discovered at Targoviste, in Romania, an orthodox book of laws(Pravila), dated in 1600 where is mentioned: “Pope from Rome is the father of the fathers and the ruler of all apostolic Churches” - we were lucky because the Orthodox Church Autorities wanted to destroy it, but hystorians defendet it.

So this is a little part of what Orthodox Church is.

Belive with your all heart in Catholic Church and don’t depart from it, because those who separate (who are schismatics) leave the Church of Christ. And don’t receive something from schismatic because it is like you comite adultery, we are merried with the Bride of Christ, the Catholic Church, and if we receive something from schismatics is like we comit adulter, because we go to a prostitute and leave the true Bride of the Lamb: Catholic Church.

I feel sorry because I don’t have a rich English voccabulary because I coul tell more.

*Fundation or base
 
you guys should really check out 1 Corinthians 1;10 in the NLT

“Now, dear brothers, I appeal to you by the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ to stop arguing among yourselves. Let there be real harmony so there won’t be divisions in the church. I plead with you to be of one mind, united in thought and purpose.”…“Some of you are saying “I am a follower of Paul.” Others are saying, “I follow Appolos” or “I follow Cephas(Peter)” or “I follow only Christ”. Can Christ be divided into pieces?”

check it. Honestly there are proclaimed “Catholics” and “Protestents” that will fight you tooth and nail about scriptural interpretation. Truth is that God searches much deeper within, past the way things appear outwardly. Now can we accept that the Holy Spirit of the Most High Living God will lead us to all truth? And if you dont have the Spirit of Christ living in you then you arent Christians at all then are you? Personally i dont agree with some of the teachings of the Catholic church.But i could be wrong. Dont let there be divisions among us. We are called to believe in the Lord. Turn from our sins, take up our cross.Do what is right, Love, love mercy, and walk humbly with the Lord, and tos pread the good news. We have made it so much about rules and regulations and accusations and such. We are to be the salt of the world. Salt makes things taste good, do you think all this bitterness is attractive to the blind? Remember none of us really knows the complete truth. I dont think its about Catholocism or Protestants or any of that. I know protestants who are Spirit filled, and i know catholics that are Spirit filled. Remember He is looking for those who will worship in Spirit and in Truth.

1 Corinthians 4;20 “For the Kingdom of God is not just about Fancy talk; it is living by God’s power.”

If i have said anything offensive or wrong,PLEASE let me know. My e mail is liqwidstyx@yahoo.com. Gotta love disciple.

May the Grace and Peace of the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
 
steve b:
keys aren’t mentioned in Mt 18:18-20.

It seems you want it both ways.

Re: Unity,

**[There are two editions, the second of which tones down the first in view of Cyprian’s argument with Pope Stephen over rebaptizing heretics. Papal primacy is clear in the first edition written about 251 A.D., but merely implicit **in the second effort written about 255 or 256 A.D.]

First Edition: "And again He says to him [Peter] after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep’ (John 21:17). On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all our shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that his is in the Church?"

**Second Edition: ***"It is on the one man that He builds the Church; *and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles after His resurrection, when He says, 'As the Father has sent me, so also do I send you; receive the Holy Spirit: If you forgive any man his sins, they shall be forgiven; and if you retain any man’s sins, they shall be retained" (John 20: 21-23) Nevertheless, in order that unity might be clearly shown, He established by His own authority a source for that unity, which takes its beginning from one man alone. Indeed, the other Apostles were that also which Peter was, being endowed with an equal portion of dignity and power; but the origin is grounded in unity, so that it may be made clear that there is but one Church of Christ. [snip] for space

Unity with Peter! 👍

Isn’t that what Cyprian said [that you specifically quoted] ???

Steve, both of your editions are interpolated and falsified. I quoted the most reliable edition above (p. 2, #192), and included a link. If you go to the link, they footnote in the text where the various interpolations were added over time. I believe New Advent also uses this edition. If you want to base your faith and understanding on falsified documents, you will find plenty of them associated with the papacy, for that is how it was established and perpetuated. And, no, Cyprian said/wrote nothing of the sort. If you wish, I will provide you with quotes of Cyprian, as well as others, where they castigate the Roman Bishop and church for presumption and hauteur.
 
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jmgainor:
No Steve, reality is that, while you might wish nothing more might be said, there is much more to be said. The keys are the power to bind and loose, which was given to all the Church, and not to Peter alone. e.g. Matthew 18.18-20, etc.

The keys are distinct from the power to bind and loose. The powe to bind and loose was bestowed upon the other apostles, however, the keys represent the establishment of a ministerial position in Christ’s kingdom. Just as in Isaiah, and in the Davidic kingdom, the King, Jesus, gives the Keys to the kingdom to one person, Peter, to minister over the whole Church, the whole Kindgom. The legislative and judicial powers of binding and loosing are a part of the keys, yet the keys signify more than the power of binding and loosing.
 
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jmgainor:
Steve, both of your editions are interpolated and falsified. I quoted the most reliable edition above (p. 2, #192), and included a link. If you go to the link, they footnote in the text where the various interpolations were added over time. I believe New Advent also uses this edition. If you want to base your faith and understanding on falsified documents, you will find plenty of them associated with the papacy, for that is how it was established and perpetuated. And, no, Cyprian said/wrote nothing of the sort. If you wish, I will provide you with quotes of Cyprian, as well as others, where they castigate the Roman Bishop and church for presumption and hauteur.
“Interpolated and falsified”? “Cyprian said nothing of the sort”? The Syrian Orthodox Church quote Cyprian as I posted him in the second edition. Maybe it’s your version that is falsified. Allow me to quote from you this time.

"If you want to base your faith and understanding on falsified documents, you will find plenty of them associated with the papacy"

Here is St George Orthodox Church and what they say about Peter, the keys, the rock, etc etc etc, AND what Cyprian said, Origen, etc etc etc. The quotes they use are the same that I used.

Exerpts from St George Orthodox Church

“It is on one man that He builds the Church,” says Cyprian.
This quote is not from your translation, but it is from the one I posted in Cyprian’s second edition letter on unity. The one you say is falsified

"Keys: Peter’s personal commission is further fortified by assuring him the keys of kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose. “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven,” Mat 16:17-19. The key of the kingdom of heaven is not given to Church but to Peter himself. In Isaiah 22:22 we read, “And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder so he shall open and none shall shut, and he shall shut and none shall open.” Revelation 3:7 says He who is holy, He who is true," has the key of David, and that is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is legitimately holding the Keys of the Kingdom of God. “I am He who lives, and was dead and behold, I am alive for evermore. Amen. I have the keys of hell and of death.” Rev 1:18. Shortly, he has overall authority of all things, created, uncreated, visible, invisible, earthly, celestial, living, dead, temporal and eternal. For, Jesus endowed all His authority to Peter by promising the keys."

For context
groups.msn.com/StGeorgeSyrianOrthodoxChurchCheppaud/theuniversalapostolicchurch.msnw
 
steve b said:
“Interpolated and falsified”?

Steve, I just dealt with this same passage on another thread. This passage has been heavily interpolated (or attempted to) over time. I will paste here my response from the other thread, where someone seemed to be unable to go access the footnotes for themself. So I posted the footnotes for them. Note especially footnote 12 re your sentence.

Here is a link to the text. Scroll to ¶¶ 4-5

Here are the footnotes. I’ll paste a few of them here as well.

10 [On the falsifying of the text by Romish editors, see Elucidation II.] I will paste Elucidation II below, following footnote 16.

12 John xxi. 15. [Here is interpolated]: “Upon him, being one, He builds His Church, and commits His sheep to be fed.”

14 [Here is interpolated]: “And the primacy is given to Peter, that there might be shown one Church of Christ and one See; and they are all shepherds, and the Rock is one, which is fed by all the apostles with unanimous consent.” This passage, as well as the one a few lines before, is beyond all question spurious.

16 [Here is interpolated]; “Who deserts the chair of Peter, upon whom the Church is founded.” This passage also is undoubtedly spurious.

Elucidation II

Falsifying of the text, p. 422.

Cyprian

Interpolated

(The Latin of the interpolations deleted here to shorten the post. It can be accessed here.)
Cyprian is often innocently quoted by Romanist controvertists against the very principles of Cyprian himself, of his life and his writings. This is due to the fact that they have in their hands vitiated and interpolated copies. Thus, take a famous passage as follows:-
This is but a specimen of the way in which Cyprian has been “doctored,” in order to bring him into a shape capable of being misinterpreted. But you will say where is the proof of such interpolations? The greatly celebrated Benedictine edition reads as the interpolated column does, and who would not credit Baluzius? Now note, Baluzius rejected these interpolations and others; but, dying (a.d. 1718) with his work unfinished, the completion of the task was assigned to a nameless monk, who confesses that he corrupted the work of Baluzius, or rather glories in the exploit.829 “Nay, further,” he says, “it was necessary to alter not a few things in the notes of Baluzius; and more would have been altered if it could have been done conveniently.” Yet the edition came forth, and passes as the genuine work of the erudite Baluzius himself.

An edition of this treatise, with valuable annotations, appeared (a.d. 1852) from the press of Burlington, N.J., under the very creditable editorship of Professor Hyde, who was soon after called to depart this life. It exhibits the interpolations, and gives a useful catalogue of codices and of editions. Though its typographical execution is imperfect, I know not where so much condensed information on the subject is to be had at so little cost.830 I am grateful for the real advantage I derived from it on its first appearance.
 
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jmgainor:
Steve, I just dealt with this same passage on another thread. This passage has been heavily interpolated (or attempted to) over time. I will paste here my response from the other thread, where someone seemed to be unable to go access the footnotes for themself. So I posted the footnotes for them. Note especially footnote 12 re your sentence.

Here is a link to the text. Scroll to ¶¶ 4-5

Here are the footnotes. I’ll paste a few of them here as well.
Yes I’m familiar with this
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jmgainor:
10 [On the falsifying of the text by Romish editors, see Elucidation II.] I will paste Elucidation II below, following footnote 16.

12 John xxi. 15. [Here is interpolated]: “Upon him, being one, He builds His Church, and commits His sheep to be fed.”

14 [Here is interpolated]: “And the primacy is given to Peter, that there might be shown one Church of Christ and one See; and they are all shepherds, and the Rock is one, which is fed by all the apostles with unanimous consent.” This passage, as well as the one a few lines before, is beyond all question spurious.

16 [Here is interpolated]; “Who deserts the chair of Peter, upon whom the Church is founded.” This passage also is undoubtedly spurious.

Elucidation II

Falsifying of the text, p. 422.

Cyprian

Interpolated

(The Latin of the interpolations deleted here to shorten the post. It can be accessed here.)
Cyprian is often innocently quoted by Romanist controvertists against the very principles of Cyprian himself, of his life and his writings. This is due to the fact that they have in their hands vitiated and interpolated copies. Thus, take a famous passage as follows:-
This is but a specimen of the way in which Cyprian has been “doctored,” in order to bring him into a shape capable of being misinterpreted. ***But you will say where is the proof of such interpolations? ***
You’re reading my mind
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jmgainor:
The greatly celebrated Benedictine edition reads as the interpolated column does, and who would not credit Baluzius?
Now note, Baluzius rejected these interpolations and others; but, dying (a.d. 1718) with his work unfinished, the completion of the task was assigned to a nameless monk, who confesses that he corrupted the work of Baluzius, or rather glories in the exploit.829*** “Nay, further,” he says, “it was necessary to alter not a few things in the notes of Baluzius; and more would have been altered if it could have been done conveniently.” Yet the edition came forth, and passes as the genuine work of the erudite Baluzius himself.***
:hmmm: says who? Another nameless person who is anonymous?
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jmgainor:
An edition of this treatise, with valuable annotations, appeared (a.d. 1852) from the press of Burlington, N.J., under the very creditable editorship of Professor Hyde, who was soon after called to depart this life. It exhibits the interpolations, and gives a useful catalogue of codices and of editions. Though its typographical execution is imperfect, I know not where so much condensed information on the subject is to be had at so little cost.830 I am grateful for the real advantage I derived from it on its first appearance.
Let’s not forget, “elucidations”, aren’t Cyprian’s, they are someone’s interpretation of what Cyprian said. These “elucidations” are not immune from polemics of their own.
 
I checked out a site that jmgainor has been recommending, and the site talks about the false decretals in the ninth century which the Pope’s used to establish their authority. However, the historian Carrol says that the false decretals were not used for Papal primacy because at that time, Papal authority was already well established, and the false decretals were used primarily to protect bishops against the nobility. I will read more about the false decretals, however, the web site which jmgainor is recommending has a definite slant and agenda-anti-Papacy, anti-Catholic.
 
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Charbrah:
I checked out a site that jmgainor has been recommending, and the site talks about the false decretals in the ninth century which the Pope’s used to establish their authority. However, the historian Carrol says that the false decretals were not used for Papal primacy because at that time, Papal authority was already well established, and the false decretals were used primarily to protect bishops against the nobility. I will read more about the false decretals, however, the web site which jmgainor is recommending has a definite slant and agenda-anti-Papacy, anti-Catholic.
Hi Charlie,

I agree. One of the footnotes I was directed to as a “proof text” for Roman tampering with texts, used the word “Romish” in the footnote. That’s a code word that gives the author of the footnote and possibly the entire text, away. It has its roots in 17th century Anglican polemics against the Catholic Church.
newadvent.org/cathen/13121a.htm
 
JMGAINORS elucidations strike me as utterly ignorat. The elucidations argue that Nicholas I “invented the papacy” using the false decretals for support. Nicholas was Pope in the ninth century, jmgainors elucidations argue that Nicholas, in the ninth century, “invented” the papacy? That is rediculous. I will read more about jmgainors web site–where is he getting his sources?
 
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Charbrah:
JMGAINORS elucidations strike me as utterly ignorat. The elucidations argue that Nicholas I “invented the papacy” using the false decretals for support. Nicholas was Pope in the ninth century, jmgainors elucidations argue that Nicholas, in the ninth century, “invented” the papacy? That is rediculous. I will read more about jmgainors web site–where is he getting his sources?
Well Char,

Maybe my ignorance can teach you a little bit. The False Decretals and the Donation of Constantine, as well as numerous other frauds, were the building blocks of the papacy. The earliest Church knew nothing of a papacy or of any primacy for the Roman bishop, except that over time he was granted a primacy of honor at councils due to the eminence of his city, the capitol of the empire.

The earliest Christian interpretation of the **Rock **on which the Church is built is that the Rock is Christ. It is found in the Shepherd of Hermas in the mid second century (click here and scroll a short way to the Pastor of Hermas). Tertullian was the first to make the Peter = ‘rock of the Church’ association in the early third century. (Tertullian was affiliated with the Roman Church and likely received his education there.) But it was his view that it was Peter alone, not any successors. And he held no special regard for the Roman bishop.

Even though Roman bishops began to attempt to assert claims to primacy, etc, those claims were rejected by the wider Church. It was the Decretals and the Donation that gave an appearance of legal validity to those claims and an appearance of precedent, as the documents were pretended to be from antiquity, when they were, in fact, recent inventions. Nevertheless, the frauds were received and held to be authentic for hundreds of years, and gave substance to claims of the Roman bishops, which built the power and prestige of the papacy—which some still hold as valid, even though the frauds have long been exposed.

I hope that helps a little. I don’t know how long I’ll be able to post here. I’ve already been informed that I can expect to be booted out at any time. They can only hide from the truth for a time. Eventually it will judge them.
 
Gainors, why would you be booted out? I am purchased a book today that disputes what you are saying. I will read more after work.
 
Hey Gainor,

What part of God’s word are you calling a lie to keep believing that fraud built up the Church upon Peter and not God?

Peace and all good,

Thomas2
 
I think we need to view Mat 16 within a Jewish context, and within a Jewish context, the parallel between the keys of Isaiah and the keys in Matthew are plausible, and think a logical parallel, and since Matthew wrote to a Jewish audience, I think that any Jew who heard that Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to a person, the Jew would have understood that that meant royal privilege and establishment of Prime Minister.
 
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Myhrr:
Continued to** Steve b**

**What’s the context? Is this about the Bishop of Rome having supremacy over every other bishop? **

****I think you should continue studying.


The quote is clear

**
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Myhrr:

**How far have we got? You can’t use Cyprian of Carthage anymore **

**Who says? **

Cyprian’s letter to Pope Cornelius in Rome, warning him of who is coming for a visit.

"
they still dare-a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics-to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source;

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-79.htm

**
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Myhrr:
**

so let’s add another to that list, let’s eliminate Augustine.

** You’re saying a bishop can’t be dealt with no matter what? That’s a completely false understanding.**

**
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Myhrr:
**

Add to it these:

Augustine, The Retractations 20:1. "In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘…[snip] for space


Augustine said (paraphrased), push come to shove, my opinions aside, I defer to the Catholic Church. That gives you the bottomline understanding of the mind of Augustine.

Protestants often try and hijack Augustine for themselves, and try to pit Augustine, a Doctor of the Catholic Church, against the Catholic Church. It never works.
 
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Charbrah:
So Myrrh, what denomination should I as a Catholic consider switching to if Catholicism is incorrect? Is it Sola Scriptura? Then what denominations interpretation of scripture should I accept? What do you do?
It’s your Church, I’ve already given my limited advice - write to your bishops and complain.

I just can’t see how this problem can go away when the masses are so much more educated than they could be for most of these centuries and not only more educated, but with the extraordinary communication we have now.

What’s important for you? For me it’s to be able to go into a church and worship God in peace and personally I find it really difficult to cope with now with all this hurt around generated by hierarchs of the different Churches who care more about control and power over the Churches than the Churches themselves. I’ve had to work hard to let my anger go because it can become worse than the things that make me angry about all this. The one thing I’m grateful for is that I came from a tradition that still honoured the Mother of God, because at one point I couldn’t take any more of the ‘Jesus’ that’s been created by man and She came to my rescue and I re-discovered the Christ I could trust. But everyone’s journey is different. I really don’t mean to hurt you here, I just want this to stop.
 
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Charbrah:
I think we need to view Mat 16 within a Jewish context, and within a Jewish context, the parallel between the keys of Isaiah and the keys in Matthew are plausible, and think a logical parallel, and since Matthew wrote to a Jewish audience, I think that any Jew who heard that Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to a person, the Jew would have understood that that meant royal privilege and establishment of Prime Minister.
Well I think it is totally implausible to suggest that Christ didn’t know what he was talking about or didn’t know Isaiah. If he had meant that **one, **specifically one, key when giving to Peter the references would have made that obvious. It’s a key to the treasury, it has totally different meanings from the plural keys given him, which is all about forgiveness, not stewardship.

I’m sorry, but the truth here is that after claiming Peter for itself, contrary to Christ’s canon forbidding a hierarchical Church and contrary to every word of Peter’s in the NT where he never makes such a claim but quite the opposite shows obedience to Christ’s canon, it simply took whatever ‘power type’ references it could find to bolster its own bid for power over the Church.

Write to your bishops! Reclaim your Church! :whistle:
 
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