Peter the rock/Catholic Chair

[po18guy]

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Citing Sources;
Search pulling Fathers opinions, positive and negative, on the topic,…
asking for limited number,

Here is where each Father’s writing is found within their works;

Origen, from the Commentary on Mathew, 12:10-11,

Cyprian, ‘On the Unity of the Church 4’,

Chrysostom, ‘Commentary on Galations 1, vv 1-3’

Jerome 'Letter 15:1-2, 15:4,

Augustine 'The Retractions, 1:20:1

As with all writings, we must be careful to read them in context and to realize that the fathers were not Pope and council, and did not declare doctrine in and of themselves. And, we must not allow discussions regarding the fathers to distract us from what Christ had to say!

An example that frequently arises is that of Jerome and the Deuterocanonical books. He had questions about them, but never declared them to be uninspired. He translated them (and others that were not accepted) dutifully, and relied on them in his later writings. Those who cite Jerome’s questions regarding the Deuterocanon as justification for their exclusion from the canon then turn around and reject Jerome when he teaches of the Pope, Church councils, the Sacraments, the Apostolic Tradition and Church authority.

Such cherry picking is not a search for the truth, but for personal comfort.

 

[BeingSaved]

.

Such cherry picking is not a search for the truth, but for personal comfort.

I wasn’t cherry picking though, when I searched, as I am new to the Fathers, and haven’t been exposed to them, nor how to deal with what they have written. Your comments
on how to read them are the first I believe I’ve heard.

I am not uncomfortable in my church that I am in, but am interested in what the differences are between myself, let’s say, and Christians that are Catholic. I am born again, or…have the Holy Spirit inside, but there are lots in non-Catholic churches who do not have the Holy Spirit inside them, meaning born again, or after ba, as in continuing to follow the Lord.

Correction, it’s not just what the differences actually are and understanding them,
but on what are the Catholic differences founded.

I am not telling you your beliefs are wrong, at this point I am trying to really understand what your beliefs are and what they are founded on.

P.S. I am not saying you are not wrong, either, though, I am not sure about everything that the differences include.

 

[BeingSaved]

:

Thank you for your response, very interesting,…
…you were ba in a non Catholic church and switched to C? Was it so you and your mate
could be in the same church, or you did it on your own? Did a devout Catholic
lead you, or just on your own? Curious.

 

[BeingSaved]

I made a brief request, Fathers for and Fathers not for,
and just copied and pasted on a notepad what came up, and read later, then posted here,…
I have not read the Fathers myself, so I would not recognize it from what was inside.

I will search more and try to verify,…

You are saying the place listed as where this quote is found is incorrect?

I don’t really have a position, as such, even though you can tell from my info, I am not Catholic,…I am in a non-Catholic group because I was born in one, and became born again here, and am growing spiritually here.

I am actually trying to understand what our differences are and why, and look into Catholic claims and where they come from.

p.s. I guess I do have a position, actually, (this is what I secretly hope- I am hoping you are wrong about Purg., (smile) and about the Pope and the Magist.(not that I don’t like the Pope, and don’t appreciation the fine going over the scholars in the Magis. have given the scriptures, etc.) but it is all foreign to me, and I have come from an anti-Catholic background, and you know the P. criticisms, and Cath. is all strange to me, Italian and latin are forein to me, and I have heard all my life the Pope and Cathol. held in great suspicion and mistrust, etc. and to be honest it sometimes gives me a huge headache to even try to think about it all,…

If you are right and I find it out, will I have to change over and become Cath? This is quite an upheaval in my life and no one I know will even begin to understand, ie. all my fam. and friends, and church and church people…

 

[BeingSaved]

Peter is named in the New Testament 195 times. The next closest? The Apostle whom Jesus loved - John. 29 times. The others even less than that. Peter is always listed first, Judas last (Mt 10:2-5, Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-17, Acts 1:13). It is “Peter and the rest…” or “Peter and his companions” (Lk 9:32, Mk 16:7, Acts 2:37). Peter as spokesman (Mt 18:21, Mk 8:29, Lk 8:45, 12:41, Jn 6:69). As to his primacy, There is Mt 16:13-20, Mt 14:24-33, Ml 16:7, Luke 5 (Peter’s boat), Lk 22:31-32, Lk 24:33-35, Jn 20:6, Jn 21:15-19. Additionally, Christ told only Peter to remove the coin from the fish’s mouth to pay the temple tax for Him and Peter Mt 17:26. It goes on and on and on. There is simply an overwhelming amount of scripture which points to Peter’s primacy. And, the primacy of the Bishop of Rome is shown by, among other things, Pope Clement’s letter to the Corinthians, mediating a dispute there. But, they had their own Bishop in Corinth! What was Clement’s role, other than as successor to Peter?

For those who claim the position of chief of the apostles was invented, the chair fabricated out of thin air, we will need to know who fabricated it and when.

I haven’t claimed any fabrication, but I guess you are not saying that, you are just defending, but I am not actually attacking,…but you might be defending other comments from others, from the past?

I am curious and wanting to know where it all came from and why and yes I am not a Catholic,…but,…if what you are saying is so, I would like to find out.

 

[po18guy]

I wasn’t cherry picking though, when I searched, as I am new to the Fathers, and haven’t been exposed to them, nor how to deal with what they have written. Your comments
on how to read them are the first I believe I’ve heard.

I am not uncomfortable in my church that I am in, but am interested in what the differences are between myself, let’s say, and Christians that are Catholic. I am born again, or…have the Holy Spirit inside, but there are lots in non-Catholic churches who do not have the Holy Spirit inside them, meaning born again, or after ba, as in continuing to follow the Lord.

Correction, it’s not just what the differences actually are and understanding them,
but on what are the Catholic differences founded.

I am not telling you your beliefs are wrong, at this point I am trying to really understand what your beliefs are and what they are founded on.

P.S. I am not saying you are not wrong, either, though, I am not sure about everything that the differences include.

Sorry! This was not aimed at you at all. I was speaking about those who pick this and that, according to their preferecne, to determine what they will believe. But, since there were many fathers and we have quite a bit of their writings, it is important to place them in context. Many of them were combatting heresy, and if so, that is the proper context to read them in.

A couple of great illustrated reference works on the early fathers are:

The Fathers,volume 1

The Fathers, volume 2

Both written by Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. Amazingly, these two beautifully illustrated volumes can be had for $5 each plus shipping.

 

[BeingSaved]

Sorry! This was not aimed at you at all. I was speaking about those who pick this and that, according to their preferecne, to determine what they will believe. But, since there were many fathers and we have quite a bit of their writings, it is important to place them in context. Many of them were combatting heresy, and if so, that is the proper context to read them in.

A couple of great illustrated reference works on the early fathers are:

The Fathers,volume 1

The Fathers, volume 2

Both written by Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. Amazingly, these two beautifully illustrated volumes can be had for $5 each plus shipping.

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thank you, I didn’t fully think it was, but just in case,.anyway, thank you for the Ch.F.'s,

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typing online has its limits, no voice intonation and no facial.-which clarify meaning
PLUS
we are talking about things that have been the subject of other very heated conversations
and over which people have, up until recently, even been bombing each other over,…ie Ireland,…so no wonder things can get muddled…

 

[BeingSaved]

as a non C., I have these things to consider,…

1. could the Catholic diff. info be correct, and, or parts of it be correct,.
2. would I need to change and become part of the CC, if one is true
3. I know that many inside P. churches and inside C. churches
   do not either have the Holy Spirit inside, ie. new birth creations in Christ J.
   or did have, and are now not follower or growing, they are going thru motions
   4)because of 3, if 1. is true, I will still have to consider whether or not
   to change and go into CC, as I am instructed to ‘not forsake gathering together
   with believers’, and in some individual churches there are few believers,…having living vital faith,…

so, not only is it important to have full and true doctrine, but it is also important to be
meeting and getting together with others of like-spiritual life and faith,…

there are P. churches that are falling away,…in that the people in them are not new creations in Christ Jesus nor are they living in faith and in the Spirit,…and for me to become
part of them, regardless of whether they have in their written doctrine the truth, would not be ok for me,…

see what I mean?

the tares and the wheat are both in the same place, but as a wheat I want to have fellowship with other wheat, as well as hear true doctrine…

it is a multifaceted issue, not diff. for Catholics either as I do know plenty of Catholics that go to church, but do not have the life of Christ that the Catholic man had, who shared his faith and beliefs with me,…

what I am trying to say is that just like going into mcdonalds doesn’t make one a hamburger, going to a particular church will not make one a follower of Christ ,necessarily,…
this is true for P. and for C.

 

[po18guy]

I haven’t claimed any fabrication, but I guess you are not saying that, you are just defending, but I am not actually attacking,…but you might be defending other comments from others, from the past?

I am curious and wanting to know where it all came from and why and yes I am not a Catholic,…but,…if what you are saying is so, I would like to find out.

One of my problems is that I often reply for the sake of lurkers, and not directly to your post. The most often heard objection to Peter as prime involves simply not payng attention to the mountain of scriupture that points to him as well as naming him. As to his seat, there is a record of each and every Pope from Peter onward. Since almost nothing is known of some of these men, the list had to be maintained somewhere, by someone. And, that list has been maintained, as it is important to demonstrate the continuity of the Church as Christ founded it. The “Linus” whom Paul wrote of in 2 Timothy 4:21 is venerated as Peter’s first successor, when Peter was crucified in Rome. He was followed by Anacletus, then by Clement I, who wrote his famous letter to quash a rebellion in Corinth. Question to ponder: Since there was a local Bishop in Corinth, why would Rome care unless the seat of Peter bore responsibility for the entire Church?

 

[po18guy]

as a non C., I have these things to consider,…

I would be careful with this train of thought. Christ associated with the worst of sinners. Why? To call them to repentance. Since each and every church is filled with sinners and hypocrites, can we then not associate with anyone? We don’t even know if they truly believe. What if it only looks like they do, the old “false conversion” story?

What we are called to do is seek the truth, no matter how difficult or distasteful it seems - at the cost of our very lives, if God so wills it. And, not that portion of truth which we are comfortable with, but the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.

You have come here with a seeking heart. God will grant you the grace to understand, if you simply believe.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thank you for your response, very interesting,…
…you were ba in a non Catholic church and switched to C? Was it so you and your mate
could be in the same church, or you did it on your own? Did a devout Catholic
lead you, or just on your own? Curious.

I converted to the Catholic Church while I was a student at Georgia Tech, and I was not married at that time.

By God’s grace, I became convinced of the truth of Catholicism, in part, by reasoning through the implication of the history of Christianity, but make no mistake, God drew me to Himself.

As Newman said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.”