Peter's successors?

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Fredricks:
Catholics, who support Rome’s primacy
Would that be less offensive?
No. That doesn’t work either because it’s redundant. Just “Catholics” works. Anyone who is not in union with the See of Rome is not Catholic. It is that simple despite your “friends who disagree with Rome but are Catholic” argument.
 
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Fredricks:
It insults them to be associated with Rome?

You make a bad analogy though, we do not believe in the primacy of the Jehovah Witnesses.
I admire JW’s for their dedication and their desire to spread their misguided theology!
Their passion is to be admired to be sure. They also do not have a racially bigoted bone in their bodies.
An additional point, I am quite familiar with many Catholics who do not support Rome. Of course, many would say they are not real Catholics, which would surprise them.

Catholics, who support Rome’s primacy
Would that be less offensive?
They are the ultimate in protest though and represent how far it can be taken.

No one ever said they weren’t nice people.

But catholic works just fine.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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Fredricks:
It insults them to be associated with Rome?

You make a bad analogy though, we do not believe in the primacy of the Jehovah Witnesses.
I admire JW’s for their dedication and their desire to spread their misguided theology!
Their passion is to be admired to be sure. They also do not have a racially bigoted bone in their bodies.
An additional point, I am quite familiar with many Catholics who do not support Rome. Of course, many would say they are not real Catholics, which would surprise them.

Catholics, who support Rome’s primacy
Would that be less offensive?
Many people are surprised on judgement day to hear that Christ “never knew them,” but that doesn’t change the fact that it is true.
 
On a slightly off topic note, I have been thinking about making a decision that anytime I hear anybody say “Roman Catholic,” I will assume they have no idea what they are talking about and ignore whatever they say.

I’m not talking about Fredericks, I am just reffering to anti-Catholics in general.
 
I think it’s hard for anti-Catholics to just say “the Catholic Church” or “Catholics” because it doesn’t pack the powerful punch of terms like “Romanists” or “Romish”. I’m not directing this at Fredericks, specifically, just speaking from what I have seen written by anti-Catholics. They have such a hard time just using “Catholic”.

But this is for Fredericks - If we are going to talk with redundancy about “Catholics who support Rome’s primacy” can I call you “the male with xy chromosomes” or the “American with U.S. citizenship” or the “non-Catholic Protestant”?
 
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Eden:
No. That doesn’t work either because it’s redundant. Just “Catholics” works. Anyone who is not in union with the See of Rome is not Catholic. It is that simple despite your “friends who disagree with Rome but are Catholic” argument.
Your internal squabbles and splits in the Catholic church are not my concern. My neighbors family is Catholic and I will call him such, even if you guys would call him “Old Catholic”.
 
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Fredricks:
Your internal squabbles and splits in the Catholic church are not my concern. …
They should be your concern if you wish to speak intelligently on the matter. It is an infallibly-defined article of the faith that the Catholic Church is one, so there are no “splits” in the Church. If you split, you split from the Church and become non-Catholic.
 
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Lazerlike42:
Many people are surprised on judgement day to hear that Christ “never knew them,” but that doesn’t change the fact that it is true.
You know Lazer, I know a lot of people who think that about you guys as well. A lot of people think they control the Book of Life.
You know that your own teachings do not claim only Catholics go to heaven. If you think some Old Catholics or any of the other splinter groups are not going to make it, lets just let God decide that. I have never said Catholics are not going to heaven. We agree on the essentials if they have accepted Christ and are baptized, BUT they do not think we do,
 
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DeFide:
They should be your concern if you wish to speak intelligently on the matter. It is an infallibly-defined article of the faith that the Catholic Church is one, so there are no “splits” in the Church. If you split, you split from the Church and become non-Catholic.
I like the intelligent remark. your article is not my article. I do not wish to spend my time deciding who the real Baptists, Catholics, or Mormons are. You guys can squabble among yourselves.
 
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Fredricks:
It is right next to the list of all mortal and all venial sins of course.
Since Catholics accept both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, this sarcastic non-answer doesn’t really work, does it? It only “works” if one is committed to sola scriptura. So, try again…

At any rate, you didn’t answer my earlier post, so I’ll repeat it:

Frederick, I would like you to prove to me that the level of “proof” you are asking for is necessary for its acceptance as doctrine. That is, I want you to show me that ALL doctrines, such as the Trinity, that we accept as Christians are supported by the very level of “proof” that you are looking for here. I can assure you that you won’t be able to do so. It would be reasonable, then, to conclude that the “proof” you require is simply a personal desire on your part, with no relevance to doctrinal development and understanding. Next, I would like you to explain to me what your basis is for accepting some doctrines (such as the Trinity) that simply don’t rise to the level of what you are requiring here, and rejecting others.

Given that Christian doctrines do not always come with pedigrees that suit your particular fancy, Catholic acceptance of the doctrine of the papacy is perfectly reasonable given the level of “proof” that we do have. I’m not asking you to accept this doctrine: I’m asking you to accept that it is reasonable to accept it.
 
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Fredricks:
Well, obviously garden-variety conservative evangelicals and a mainstream, albeit very conservative, Protestant would agree on the essentials…
Wow, what planet do you live on? That’s not the case with my friends who fit into the categories you list here. Matters as essential as salvation are not agreed upon by the groups you list here.
 
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Fredricks:
We agree on the essentials if they have accepted Christ and are baptized, BUT they do not think we do,
No, we accept Sacred Scripture (all of it, including the deuterocanons) as well as Sacred Tradition.
 
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Fredricks:
They, Peter and Paul, not just Peter, hand it to Linus. What do they hand? The Bishop of Rome. Thats all, nothing more.
No, they handed over the full (re-)consolidated power and authority in the Church.

By apostolic agreement Peter was “apostle to the Jews” and Paul was “apostle to the gentiles.” When Peter and Paul handed their authority to Linus, the full Catholic authority was re-consolidated in that one Church. No other Church received such a real and symbolic grant of full authority.

Now, Peter was always to be the foundation and chief shepard of the Church, no need to go over the scriptural proofs here. But you do mention several times how the early references in succession mention both Peter and Paul. I believe one of Christ’s purposes in bringing Paul to Rome was to be martyred there along with Peter and to really and symbolically confer Paul’s “apostleship to the gentiles” to the Roman Church along with Peter’s “apostleship to the Jews.”

Peter and Paul each handed over everything they had.

Apostleship to Jews/Gentiles ended. There was now only one apostleship again: Universal. In the Church of Rome.
 
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Fredricks:
Did the early Christian church think that Peter had a successor who was in charge of the whole church? Did they think the Bishop of Rome specifically was that person?
The understanding of the Petrine ministry developed over time in the early Church. St. Irenaeus of Lyons who had learned the faith from St. Polycarp, a man who was a disciple of the apostle John, provides us with a list of the Bishops of Rome, stretching right back to St. Peter himself, and he finishes by writing: “In this order, and by this succession…the tradition from the apostles and the truth has come down to us.”

Cyprian of Carthage (251AD )was probaly the first to spell out the petrine office as it is understood today:“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. . . . If someone [today] does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; first edition [A.D. 251]).
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Fredricks:
This is particularly important. Notice that Irenaues said that Rome has authority, undoubtedly a controversial view but he certainly felt that way as did others at that time, but look at the reason why. Not because Peter had a specific successor but their adherence to the Apostles teachings(which we also believe as well, this is preserved in the Bible). Notice also Peter and Paul again.
The bible itself says not all teaching is contained in itself The Gospel proclamation began as oral tradition. Paul wrote to the Thessalonians, “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.” (2 Th. 3:6; see also 2:15. As the tradition was being conveyed orally, it was also being written down by the apostles and others and sent throughout the church. As the various local churches received these writings they weighed them against what had been taught orally. Many writings were circulating at the time, some of which falsely carried the names of apostles. The major test for the authenticity of these writings was whether they accurately reflected the apostolic tradition as taught in the churches.
Not all oral teaching was written down in either the Old or New testaments, Christ himself used Jewish oral teaching in his teachings. Scripture also does not tell you how to intepret it, the classic example is Christ teaching from scripture and having to tell his audience even learned scribes the meaning of them.
The Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, regularly appealed to apostolic succession as a test for whether Catholics or heretics had correct doctrine. This was necessary because heretics simply put their own interpretations, even bizarre ones, on Scripture

Pax

Brian
 
Semper Fi:
No, we accept Sacred Scripture (all of it, including the deuterocanons) as well as Sacred Tradition.
Is acceptance of the Deuterocanon a salvation requirement?
Not that it matters to me, if you wish to argue with me about whether or not we should think Catholics have the essentials, that is up to you.
 
QUOTE=Sherlock]Since Catholics accept both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, this sarcastic non-answer doesn’t really work, does it? It only “works” if one is committed to sola scriptura. So, try again…
It worked for me fine
At any rate, you didn’t answer my earlier post, so I’ll repeat it:
I do not know if I even read it, I answered people I traditionally talk to.
Frederick, I would like you to prove to me that the level of “proof” you are asking for is necessary for its acceptance as doctrine. That is, I want you to show me that ALL doctrines, such as the Trinity, that we accept as Christians are supported by the very level of “proof” that you are looking for here.
I believe in what the Bible says about the relationship between God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. hundreds of years later, people felt the need to argue, debate, over what this meant. The thing is, it does not matter. The relationship, the reality, has always been the same. If humans felt the need for councils to clarify for themselves what it means to them, let them. That humans chose to codify this everpresent reality in a term, 'Trinity", good for them. I believe everything the Bible says. John 1.1, you name it.
I can assure you that you won’t be able to do so.
Well, if you say so.
It would be reasonable, then, to conclude that the “proof” you require is simply a personal desire on your part, with no relevance to doctrinal development and understanding.
Well, I would see this quite differently.
Next, I would like you to explain to me what your basis is for accepting some doctrines (such as the Trinity) that simply don’t rise to the level of what you are requiring here, and rejecting others.
I am not sure why this is about me again. i thought we were talking about Catholicism. I accept what the Bible says. I am trying to get something together about Peter, apostolic succession etc, it takes time. I accept what the Bible says. I am not aware of any beliefs that I have that are not biblical. you seem quite hung up on the Trinity, like the writers of the Bible had less knowledge of this concept than we do now? Is that what you are contending?
Given that Christian doctrines do not always come with pedigrees that suit your particular fancy, Catholic acceptance of the doctrine of the papacy is perfectly reasonable given the level of “proof” that we do have. I’m not asking you to accept this doctrine: I’m asking you to accept that it is reasonable to accept it.
Reasonable?
Why do you care if I think it is reasonable anyway?
Back to your statement though, reasonable? I am thinking.
Not as reasonable as being a Protestant or Orthodox but sure, much more reasonable than being a Mormon or Christian Scientists and a bunch of others, sure. That is my opinion, which you seem to be asking, so people should not get upset since this seems to be what is wanted.
 
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Sherlock:
Wow, what planet do you live on? That’s not the case with my friends who fit into the categories you list here. Matters as essential as salvation are not agreed upon by the groups you list here.
Earth.
Get different friends.

The vast majority of Protestants agree on Salvation essentials.
Faith in Christ
Baptism

Now some believe that baptism is not required, but they do it anyway. I do not think one needs to think their baptism saves them in order for it to do that. It never says that in the Bible. You baptize infants so you ust not either. They simply need to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Which all of the following groups do.
I think the argument about whether one needs to be baptized to be a Christian is a complete waste of time. If most everyone does it, I say most because I suppose maybe some do not, why does anyone argue about it? Just do it and shut up(collective shut up, nothing personal to anyone here). IF there are any groups that do not baptize, argue with them, I can understand that.

You guys get hung up on fringe groups like Church of Christ(who I think are saved even if they do not think we are possibly) and Mormons, JW’s etc
Put a

Nazarene
methodist
Presbyterian
Lutheran
Most Baptists
Salvation Army
Assembly of God(tongues is a sign AFTER salvation)
Episcopalian
Disciple of Christ(Christian church)
Evangelical Free
United Church of Christ(laity, not their chiefs for the most part)
Mennonite
United Brethren
Most nondenominationals
and throw in a few more

They all believe acceptance of Christ and then baptize.

Catholics and Orthodox who also accept Christ and are baptized I also include in that group, whether you think I should or not.
 
Make no mistake about it though.
You must accept Christ and be baptized.
You should also follow everything that the New Testament teaches, differintiating between the two testaments because gentiles are not under the OT law because of Peters vision from God that was declared by the first Bishop of Jerusalem, James(the brother, or step-brother possibly) of Christ at the Council. If you violate God’s word and do not follow his teachings, God determines your fate. We are not the judge.
 
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