Petitions for Gay Rights etc

[Rau]

Perhaps then the petition should not only condemn the beating of homosexuals, but also homosexuality itself, since both are sinful.

The purpose of a petition is not to preach, but to bring pressure on the State to change the law or the practices of those in authority. In that vain, and in the context of this thread, is there something you would seek of the State, besides a cessation of beatings?

 

[divinefaith]

-]/-]

I’m saying that everyone has the right not to be beaten up. Why have a petition every time a group gets beaten.
What’s the point of such a petition? It gets signed, handed in and then of course the authorities will agree that nobody deserves to be beaten up. Then what??

It is because LGBT group is still a minority and disadvantaged group. Just like how women are vulnerable to oppression globally just for being women. LGBT are also vulnerable to global hate crimes. Having a petition to support LGBT right to dignity is helpful to address the social cruelty targeting that group.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The purpose of a petition is not to preach, but to bring pressure on the State to change the law or the practices of those in authority. In that vain, and in the context of this thread, is there something you would seek of the State, besides a cessation of beatings?

I don’t agree. The purpose of a petition is to preach against, to redress, a wrongdoing. Certainly that is its purpose in this context. Why not peititon against two wrongs instead of one?

The harm caused to society by men sodomizing each other is certainly as brutal as men beating each other. Why in your mind is one peition not preaching and the other preaching?

 

[Rau]

I don’t agree. The purpose of a petition is to preach against, to redress, a wrongdoing. Certainly that is its purpose in this context. Why not peititon against two wrongs instead of one?

The harm caused to society by men sodomizing each other is certainly as brutal as men beating each other. Why in your mind is one peition not preaching and the other preaching?

Looks like we agree to disagree.

 

[josh987654321]

Thank you so much for all the replies!

I feel we must tread carefully here.
I think any petition that is against police brutality - regardless of whether it is in connection to a gay man, a black woman, a Muslim or any human being - should be supported by Catholics, unless it uses the case to show support for sin such as homosexual acts or marriage etc.

We can’t forget Jesus saved a prostitute from being stoned to death - He didn’t support prostitution, but said “neither do I condem you… Go now and leave your life of sin.”
This is the message we should take to our society that seems to think if you don’t support what they call “gay rights” you hate homosexuals. And we should be behind petitions supporting the dignity of the human being all the way, as long as it is not also supporting sin.

God bless you all

I agree.

 

[Mithrandir]

I mean, I’m still not too sure about the original petition in question, as the man was trying to start a LGBTI group - which I feel often simply complicates the problem.
Of course, it’s still terrible what happened to him. But I think we should also be careful which cases we put our name behind.

Quite often, Amnesty uses an email format, where an email is sent to a person in power from your address if you agree. In this case, one can re-word the email. But then it might still look like you support the original petition

I think if you’ve checked a petition and there’s nothing in it that would be easily and obviously read as suggesting you support anything sinful, then I’d sign it if it’s for a good cause. Leave others to think what they will - as long as you’ve made your stance as clear and Catholic as possible, it’s better to sign a petition against injustice than leave it for fear it’ll be misconstrued.

Sorry about the ramble, this dilemma is confusing me (maybe that’s why I started the topic )

 

[BlueEyedLady]

If we we’re not willing to affirm that gay people should be protected in a case like this, I wonder when we *would *be willing. I assume that everyone here agrees that we should “ensure the rights of all those in Belarus without discrimination, including for gender identity and sexual orientation.” Perhaps we just disagree about what those rights are.

Since the proposal leaves it vague, I would sign it, unless you know it is being used for some bad purpose.

What do you guys WANT the proposal to say? That we will “ensure the rights of all those in Belarus without discrimination, including for gender identity and sexual orientation, and that having gay sex or getting gay married isn’t a right.” These last two issues have nothing to do with police beating up gay people, and would make absolutely no sense in the proposal.

It seems to me that conservative Catholics **say **that they do not believe that gay people should be treated as second class citizens, but often – when faced with a decision where protecting homosexuals might be seen as affirming homosexuals – almost always choose the political advantage instead of compassion. If we can’t unite behind gay people not being viciously beaten, what message does this send to gay people who are considering becoming Catholic?

This.

So many times you see people on this site complaining that you are considered a bigot for being against gay marriage. I’m one of those people who believes that the anti marriage equality crowd is bigoted, and this is exactly why.

For all the talk of love the sinner, very few are willing to put their names and neck on the line to defend these sinners against actual physical abuse. I guess these people just don’t matter as much as the political advantage that’s gained by always standing squarely against gays. And it isn’t just this issue. It disgusts me that so many people talk about love and justice for sinners, even gays, but they won’t unequivocally denounce what is being done in Uganda and Russia, for fear of being seen as supporting the worst sin of all-homosexuality.

Until Christians lend their voices to love and compassion for homosexuals, I, nor anyone else in secular society, will ever believe that the fight to keep marriage away from gays is actually about family, rather than pure hatred.

 

[Rau]

So many times you see people on this site complaining that you are considered a bigot for being against gay marriage. I’m one of those people who believes that the anti marriage equality crowd is bigoted, and this is exactly why…

…Until Christians lend their voices to love and compassion for homosexuals, I, nor anyone else in secular society, will ever believe that the fight to keep marriage away from gays is actually about family, rather than pure hatred.

Sweeping statements indeed.

 

[LongingSoul]

Hi everyone,

Is it morally right to sign petitions on websites such as Amnesty International and Avaaz in defence of human rights for people who are themselves involved in morally questionable activity?
For example, I noticed a recent petition that was demanding justice for a man attempting to register a LGBTI organisation in Belarus who was violently physically and verbally abused by police.

Of course, it is unacceptable and un-Catholic that anyone should be persecuted on account of their sexuality, but is it alright for us as Catholics to sign petitions in protest at these people’s treatment?

Here is the text of the above petition, that would be sent to the General Prosecutor in Belarus:

Quote: *I am deeply concerned about the case of Ihar Tsikhanyuk, who was threatened and beaten by police following his unsuccessful attempt to register a LGBTI community organisation.

I call on you to thoroughly, independently and impartially investigate the allegations that Ihar Tsikhanyk was beaten by police and targeted because of his sexual orientation.

Ensure that the officers responsible are brought to justice through disciplinary and criminal proceedings as appropriate.

And finally, please ensure the rights of all those in Belarus without discrimination, including for gender identity and sexual orientation. *

Many thanks for your replies.

Mmmm. This wasn’t a clearly presented question. The topic references ‘gay rights’ but the body addresses human rights of gay people. It reminds me of the the story of the Pharisees trying to trick Jesus. (Matt 22 15-22)

If Jesus was to say yes, that it is right to pay taxes to the Romans, He will be condemned by the Jewish faithful and if He were to say no, it is not right to pay taxes to the Romans, He will be vilified and perhaps indicted by the ‘Herodians’ who were there to witness the trap.

So what does Jesus say? He asks the crowd for a coin and points out the face on the coin belongs to Caesar; a thing created for the business of civil life. He quite succintly put the whole thing into obvious perspective for the crowd. He made them employ their common sense. Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God.

If it was me then, I’d read what the petition specifically said and make a judgement based on that. If it addressed the defense of basic human rights that happened to involve a gay person, I’d sign. If it addressed ‘gay rights’ specifically I’d refrain. In this case, the police officers acted wrongly in the commission of their duty as police because the man was gay. That should be addressed with regard to basic human rights and human dignity.

 

[Mithrandir]

Mmmm. This wasn’t a clearly presented question. The topic references ‘gay rights’ but the body addresses human rights of gay people. It reminds me of the the story of the Pharisees trying to trick Jesus. (Matt 22 15-22)

If Jesus was to say yes, that it is right to pay taxes to the Romans, He will be condemned by the Jewish faithful and if He were to say no, it is not right to pay taxes to the Romans, He will be vilified and perhaps indicted by the ‘Herodians’ who were there to witness the trap.

So what does Jesus say? He asks the crowd for a coin and points out the face on the coin belongs to Caesar; a thing created for the business of civil life. He quite succintly put the whole thing into obvious perspective for the crowd. He made them employ their common sense. Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God.

If it was me then, I’d read what the petition specifically said and make a judgement based on that. If it addressed the defense of basic human rights that happened to involve a gay person, I’d sign. If it addressed ‘gay rights’ specifically I’d refrain. In this case, the police officers acted wrongly in the commission of their duty as police because the man was gay. That should be addressed with regard to basic human rights and human dignity.

Very perceptive. I like this outlook, and I think I agree
But he was trying to start a LGBTI group, which I feel often makes the situation worse. I’m not sure, I’m not sure

Also, I know Pope Francis has talked out against labelling people by their sexuality, so I suppose we should be behind human dignity all the way, but not support a lot of what is called “gay rights” because everyone should share the same human dignity. As well as the many other reasons, it is simply labelling people further, which will help nothing. Homosexuals should be viewed and treated as any other human being, and their dignity as human beings should be defended, and I think not labelling them by their sexuality but treating them as the individuals they are in God’s eyes is part of this.

Sorry, I feel I’m not writing very clearly but…

 

[kozlosap]

You are digressing.

Homosexuality (sexual relationships between same sexes) has nothing to do with human rights. It is about morality and homosexuality is immoral and gravely disordered.

Gay rights is essentially about same sexes being allowed to marry which of course also is to have sex between same sexes deemed acceptable and moral which it is not.

The OP simply titled the thread petitions for gay rights. Without showing us a petition wording it is perfectly normal to assume such a petition is to do with gays having the right to marry.

Now although homosexual activity and their desire to corrupt marriage is gravely sinful and should be condemned we are of course not to condemn the person. The person, just like any person should be treated with respect and that is what the Church teaches. The problem is that when we say the act is immoral the fanatics say that means the Church hates gays which is nonsense. I would bet none of them knows what the Church actually teaches about the acts and the person.

Homosexual Acts:

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

The Person:

CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

The CCC tells us to stand up for those who are persecuted. Your own private and personal beliefs that gay human beings are worthless and not fit to live with the rest of us is certainly is not what Pope Francis espouses, and more importantly, not what our Lord would preach.

 

[raaucoin]

The harm caused to society by men sodomizing each other is certainly as brutal as men beating each other.

SERIOUSLY? Maybe you can explain how -( even if you think they are deceiving themselves about love)- two men who are willing to lay their lives down for each other, care for each other in sickness and in health, who comfort and protect each other in their daily lives and who show every other example of Christian love for each other and the world in which they live- causes harm to society that is “as brutal as men beating each other.”

 

[raaucoin]

I don’t agree. The purpose of a petition is to preach against, to redress, a wrongdoing. Certainly that is its purpose in this context. Why not peititon against two wrongs instead of one?

The harm caused to society by men sodomizing each other is certainly as brutal as men beating each other. Why in your mind is one peition not preaching and the other preaching?

 

[josh987654321]

This.

So many times you see people on this site complaining that you are considered a bigot for being against gay marriage. I’m one of those people who believes that the anti marriage equality crowd is bigoted, and this is exactly why.

For all the talk of love the sinner, very few are willing to put their names and neck on the line to defend these sinners against actual physical abuse. I guess these people just don’t matter as much as the political advantage that’s gained by always standing squarely against gays. And it isn’t just this issue. It disgusts me that so many people talk about love and justice for sinners, even gays, but they won’t unequivocally denounce what is being done in Uganda and Russia, for fear of being seen as supporting the worst sin of all-homosexuality.

Until Christians lend their voices to love and compassion for homosexuals, I, nor anyone else in secular society, will ever believe that the fight to keep marriage away from gays is actually about family, rather than pure hatred.

I will not trade one wrong for another, I believe that stopping the persecution of homosexuals trumps same sex marriage by far, I will try and do as much as I can to stop such persecution, but like I said, I will not trade one wrong for another.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[MarcoPolo]

if [Atheists] thought the Catholic religion itself was morally wrong and doing harm–which many do.

Can we start a thread analyzing atheists who believe Catholicism is “morally wrong”?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

This.

So many times you see people on this site complaining that you are considered a bigot for being against gay marriage. I’m one of those people who believes that the anti marriage equality crowd is bigoted, and this is exactly why.

For all the talk of love the sinner, very few are willing to put their names and neck on the line to defend these sinners against actual physical abuse. I guess these people just don’t matter as much as the political advantage that’s gained by always standing squarely against gays. And it isn’t just this issue. It disgusts me that so many people talk about love and justice for sinners, even gays, but they won’t unequivocally denounce what is being done in Uganda and Russia, for fear of being seen as supporting the worst sin of all-homosexuality.

Until Christians lend their voices to love and compassion for homosexuals, I, nor anyone else in secular society, will ever believe that the fight to keep marriage away from gays is actually about family, rather than pure hatred.

Translation- You’re all bigots and here is a cherry picked post to support my conclusion that you are all bigots. The fact that the post I cherry picked is actually in the minority on this thread and other threads concerning homosexuality doesn’t matter since I already know you are all bigots.

 

[JackyB]

Translation- You’re all bigots and here is a cherry picked post to support my conclusion that you are all bigots. The fact that the post I cherry picked is actually in the minority on this thread and other threads concerning homosexuality doesn’t matter since I already know you are all bigots.

Spot on

 

[oldcatholicguy]

This petition is more to do with a person being beat up unlawfully by police, not about gay rights or that fact that he was trying to register an organization.

Besides…registering an LGBT organization is* not* a “sin”…and assuming anymore more is just that–an assumption.
For all we know, it is a support group for people to talk about their issues and get help from each other.
No where in the petition does it say the organization would be one that would fight for gay marriage, etc.

Of course you can and *should *sign it and, in fact, i will go online and sign it as well—as I hope many here will.

As for some of the other posts here…if a Catholic was being beaten up by police because she wanted to start a Catholic group/organization, I would hope that an Atheist or someone of another religion would still sign a petition against this brutality, even if they thought the Catholic religion itself was morally wrong and doing harm–which many do.

The point is…we are against people being physically hurt by police when it is not warranted. That is against the law and wrong and we have to stick up for each other in cases like this as fellow humans.
This petition is against police brutality inflicted upon a fellow human.

I’m perplexed that you would eve hesitate to sign this…

.

If the petition is just the text quoted in the OP I see no moral reason not to sign it. It specifically calls for an investigation into the criminal behavior of the police in regards to the man who was beaten. That said, signing it is a waste of time. The only people they would bother listening to would be Belarusians, not a bunch of non-Belarusians.

 

[ThunderFox]

I dont support gay rights, personally i think we should be trying to get them away from homosexuallity to save there souls

Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 1 Corinthians 6:9

 

[MarcoPolo]

LOL. I don’t think you wanna go there.
It would cause too many tempers to flare, for sure!

But not signing this petition…and being so vehemently against same-sex marriage…would be just two of many things on that list…

.

I won’t start the thread if you so request. But I think it would be interesting to delve into positions defined as immoral by atheists.