Petrine Papacy and Apostolic Succession

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Martin777 said:
I would like to suggest that there are literally millions of baptized Catholics who have never become true Christians. The reason is that they have never understood and received the salvation that is by faith in Jesus, apart from the works of the law. You can’t be forgiven in that condition. Don’t assume that all popes, bishops and priests have been saved. It simply isn’t true.
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It is not our job to judge who is and who is not “saved” by your definition. Moreover, it is not your job either.
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
And where is your source insulting millions of baptized Catholics? How do you know if you are NOT Catholic? I know many, many faithful Catholics who love Scripture and Our Lord, right here on CAF you can start.
Are you God? If you are not God, then how can you judge all the faithful popes, priests and bishops as to where they go when they die?
The problem I am seeing here which is extremely annoying is non-Catholic’s always assuming how Catholics live their lives. I know several Protestants who can’t even quote from their own bible and I have to correct them! None of them even go to church! There are many Protestants who are like this.
And as far as the popes, bishops and priests, can you give your life up for God like they do? Their undying love and zeal for the Catholic church is amazing.
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My good friend, why did you assume I am not catholic? My point is there there are multitudes of people who claim to be Christian, but are the ‘tares’ that Jesus speaks of, rather than the true ‘wheat’ (parable of the wheat and the tares). Jesus said the gate to destruction is broad, and many go in there. The gate to life is narrow, and FEW go in there. I beleive most who claim to be Christians have never discovered the truth about the cross–the finished work there that is available to us as a free gift through faith, apart from any of our works. Do you agree?
 
Martin777 said:
I beleive most who claim to be Christians have never discovered the truth about the cross–the finished work there that is available to us as a free gift through faith, apart from any of our works. Do you agree?
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You state this as if faith alone is sufficient and works are not necessary.
Grace is 100% a gift from God.
Jesus’ work is finished on the cross.
… but what about *our *works … the one’s God set aside for us.

What about all those things that Jesus said we must DO to have life?
… eat the flesh of the son of man
… drink his blood
… care for our family
… clothe the naked
… feed the hungry
…
…

To believe is only one thing of many we are told to do.
We must read all of scripture to know what is required, not just pick a couple of verses.

Jesus said on the cross “it is finished”.
However, this is not the last we hear from Jesus.
He comes back !!
… and what does he tell the apostles?
“since you believe, you are good to go”… nah, he didn’t say that.
He gave them instructions of what to DO.

Your statement about the ‘truth of the cross’ shows that you have not studied scripture, but reveals that you have instead put your faith in some other person that told (taught) you this.
If you had actually studied scripture, you would see quite a bit more there.

michel
 
cazayoux said:
You state this as if faith alone is sufficient and works are not necessary.
Grace is 100% a gift from God.
Jesus’ work is finished on the cross.
… but what about *our *works … the one’s God set aside for us.

What about all those things that Jesus said we must DO to have life?
… eat the flesh of the son of man
… drink his blood
… care for our family
… clothe the naked
… feed the hungry
…
…

To believe is only one thing of many we are told to do.
We must read all of scripture to know what is required, not just pick a couple of verses.

Jesus said on the cross “it is finished”.
However, this is not the last we hear from Jesus.
He comes back !!
… and what does he tell the apostles?
“since you believe, you are good to go”… nah, he didn’t say that.
He gave them instructions of what to DO.

Your statement about the ‘truth of the cross’ shows that you have not studied scripture, but reveals that you have instead put your faith in some other person that told (taught) you this.
If you had actually studied scripture, you would see quite a bit more there.

michel
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Thank you…my words exactly…👍
 
Martin777 said:
My good friend, why did you assume I am not catholic? My point is there there are multitudes of people who claim to be Christian, but are the ‘tares’ that Jesus speaks of, rather than the true ‘wheat’ (parable of the wheat and the tares). Jesus said the gate to destruction is broad, and many go in there. The gate to life is narrow, and FEW go in there. I beleive most who claim to be Christians have never discovered the truth about the cross–the finished work there that is available to us as a free gift through faith, apart from any of our works. Do you agree?
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Because if you were Catholic, you’d have it listed on your profile and be proud that you are one…
 
cazayoux said:
You state this as if faith alone is sufficient and works are not necessary.
Grace is 100% a gift from God.
Jesus’ work is finished on the cross.
… but what about *our *works … the one’s God set aside for us.

What about all those things that Jesus said we must DO to have life?
… eat the flesh of the son of man
… drink his blood
… care for our family
… clothe the naked
… feed the hungry
…
…

To believe is only one thing of many we are told to do.
We must read all of scripture to know what is required, not just pick a couple of verses.

Jesus said on the cross “it is finished”.
However, this is not the last we hear from Jesus.
He comes back !!
… and what does he tell the apostles?
“since you believe, you are good to go”… nah, he didn’t say that.
He gave them instructions of what to DO.

Your statement about the ‘truth of the cross’ shows that you have not studied scripture, but reveals that you have instead put your faith in some other person that told (taught) you this.
If you had actually studied scripture, you would see quite a bit more there.

michel
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I have a Master of Divinity from one of the largest seminaries in the world and have memorized large chunks of scripture. But that really means very little. Jesus summed the issue up when he said, “This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE…” Check it out. All works that will survive the judgement (Bema) seat of christ flow FROM regenerative grace when we are born again. Any works born out of fear or an attempt to purchase the grace of God are not even recognized by God. Paul says in Romans 8 that “those who are in the flesh CANNOT please God.”
 
Martin777 said:
You know what they say about you when you assume, right?
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Yes, usually you assume something that tends to be true. If you are a so called Catholic and are on a Catholic forum, why don’t you just say so? Because you aren’t Catholic. I don’t have time to play your games, either you are or your not…good grief…🤷
 
Martin777 said:
I have a Master of Divinity from one of the largest seminaries in the world and have memorized large chunks of scripture. But that really means very little. Jesus summed the issue up when he said, “This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE…” Check it out. All works that will survive the judgement (Bema) seat of christ flow FROM regenerative grace when we are born again. Any works born out of fear or an attempt to purchase the grace of God are not even recognized by God. Paul says in Romans 8 that “those who are in the flesh CANNOT please God.”
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cazayoux said:
I would ask you … what is the difference between ‘works’ and ‘works of the law’?
If you do not have works, what does that say about your faith?

michel
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There is no difference. If you study the doctrine of grace you will see that works confirm that our faith is real, that it is the genuine article. But it is the grace of God, through faith, that produces genuine works. I serve God and have surrendered my life to Him, not in order to get to heaven, but rather out of gratitude for the fact that he has saved me forever out of His mercy and grace. Until he dealt with my sin through the cross, I could never serve him freely. Now I can.
 
Martin777 said:
There is no difference. If you study the doctrine of grace you will see that works confirm that our faith is real, that it is the genuine article. But it is the grace of God, through faith, that produces genuine works. I serve God and have surrendered my life to Him, not in order to get to heaven, but rather out of gratitude for the fact that he has saved me forever out of His mercy and grace. Until he dealt with my sin through the cross, I could never serve him freely. Now I can.
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I’m sorry, that’s wrong. “Works” are meritorious acts done in coöperation with the Holy Spirit, whereas “Works of the Law” refers to the Mosaic Law, which is superceded by the New Law. Everyone agrees that meritorious "Works were not done away with in the NT, Heavens no! Then we wouldn’t have to help anyone or anything, and that would be unChristian.
 
Martin777 said:
It would be interesting to know how many of them were actually regenerate!
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All of them were baptized, which is when the believer is born again from above through water and spirit. Now it is a plain matter of history that some of them did not live a life worthy of their calling.
 
Matariel said:
I’m sorry, that’s wrong. “Works” are meritorious acts done in coöperation with the Holy Spirit, whereas “Works of the Law” refers to the Mosaic Law, which is superceded by the New Law. Everyone agrees that meritorious "Works were not done away with in the NT, Heavens no! Then we wouldn’t have to help anyone or anything, and that would be unChristian.
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You evidently didn’t read what I wrote. Of course good works are important. Paul says in Eph 2:10 that we were created IN CHRIST for good works! The issue is that your works come from the wrong source until you embrace what Paul says in Romans 3 and 4----"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law…But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Once you see this truth, you will understand why Paul says in Romans 8:1 that all, I repeat all condemnation is gone for the man who is in Christ. I don’t hear a lot of response coming on these verses. Why is that?
 
Martin777 said:
You evidently didn’t read what I wrote. Of course good works are important. Paul says in Eph 2:10 that we were created IN CHRIST for good works! The issue is that your works come from the wrong source until you embrace what Paul says in Romans 3 and 4----"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law…But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Once you see this truth, you will understand why Paul says in Romans 8:1 that all, I repeat all condemnation is gone for the man who is in Christ. I don’t hear a lot of response coming on these verses. Why is that?
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What type of “response” were you seeking? They are verses written by a Catholic, for Catholics. They represent Catholic Teaching. What else is there to say?
 
Matariel said:
I’m sorry, that’s wrong. “Works” are meritorious acts done in coöperation with the Holy Spirit, whereas “Works of the Law” refers to the Mosaic Law, which is superceded by the New Law. Everyone agrees that meritorious "Works were not done away with in the NT, Heavens no! Then we wouldn’t have to help anyone or anything, and that would be unChristian.
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I don’t believe you read what I wrote. It’s not wrong at all. Of course God wants us engaged in good works. But the issue is, What is the source of those works. Look at what Paul writes in Romans 3 and 4:
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law…But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

When you understand these critical verses, you will understand why Paul says in Romans 8:1 that for them man in Christ There remains not an ounce of condemnation. It is gone forever because he died with Christ on the cross and his sins were buried in the depths of the sea! And friend, you can’t get to Romans 8 without going through 3 and 4. Then your works will truly be good, from a heart of gratitude rather than one of fear or desire to purchase God’s precious grace.
 
guanophore said:
What type of “response” were you seeking? They are verses written by a Catholic, for Catholics. They represent Catholic Teaching. What else is there to say?
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Hopefully to address scripture objectively and responsibly. The one thing that never changes is God’s word (because He never changes!)
 
Martin777 said:
Hopefully to address scripture objectively and responsibly. The one thing that never changes is God’s word (because He never changes!)
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This is true, but people’s perceptions of the Scripture certainly do change markedly from one faith community to the next, and one century to the next. What has also not changed is God’s Word alive in the church, which governs the manner in which we objectively and responsibly read the Word. 👍
 
Martin777 said:
Hopefully to address scripture objectively and responsibly. The one thing that never changes is God’s word (because He never changes!)
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I agree; and He always preserves His Holy Catholic Church from teaching error in matters of Faith and morals. 👍
 
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