Petroleum and the future of civilization

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Startup Says It Can Make Ethanol for $1 a Gallon, and Without Corn
A biofuel startup in Illinois can make ethanol from just about anything organic for less than $1 per gallon, and it wouldn’t interfere with food supplies, company officials said.
Coskata, which is backed by General Motors and other investors, uses bacteria to convert almost any organic material, from corn husks (but not the corn itself) to municipal trash, into ethanol.
“It’s not five years away, it’s not 10 years away. It’s affordable, and it’s now,” said Wes Bolsen, the company’s vice president of business development.
sounds too good to be true. either way it sounds very promising.
 
A caller to a talk radio program stated there were thousands of capped oil wells in the Western United States.

Hmmmm.

So I did a Google search of “capped oil wells in United States”. All kinds of stuff shows up,

Anyway, here is one paragraph (part of a press release regarding some new technology or other for extracting the oil still in those capped oil wells.)

“As much as 65% of the oil in a typical oil well is never extracted before a well is capped. It is estimated that there are more than 400,000 capped oil wells in the United States alone. The bulk of the oil remaining in these wells is too heavy to bring to the surface using conventional technologies. Because the oil in these wells is considered to heavy, this oil is not included in the estimates of the US oil reserves and non-retrievable. GBRC plans to use its technology to go back into these wells, convert the heavy oil to gas and bring the gas to the surface where it will be converted into diesel carbons and fuel oil carbons (50% by-weight)”
(Energy Return on Enegy Invested) EROEI, Al. Your net energy going into the process needs to be less then the net energy produced by the process. If not then you’ve lost ground. That’s physics relality and not necessarily economics reality. Trying to get this oil out of the ground should still be easier than trying to get oil from oil shale. Why? the physics of surface tension, Al. The reason most oil is left in the ground is because it’s lock by surface tention (you should see wells damaged by paraffin - a waxy substance). Because shale is tighter with much smaller pore space than sand it makes sense to try and recover this remain oil from oil sands. But is it cost effective both in terms of physics (EROEI) and economics. A good example of the is the Canadian tar sands. Albert has stranded natural gas (gas that doesn’t have a readily available market for electrical generation) so this gas is used to boil the tar from the sand and to process the tar into a more usable form. I seen it argued that this process is actually an net energy losser (more BTUs are used by the NG than is returned in the form of oil). Economically, though, it makes sense to use this gas since it’s stranded. Canada is flurting with the idea of using small nuclear plants to generate the heat to process the tar. You getting the picture?

All wells/fields are plugged when they are nolonger economically viable to keep pumping. If electricity is inexpensive enough and the price of oil becomes high enough a lot of these well can be re-opened. The EROEI can still be negative. Producers use water flooding and chemicals to over come surface tension. Water flooding pushes the oil by injecting saltwater in one well and pushing it to the pumping well using both pressure and fluid movement. Even with water flooding, Al, there is oil left behind. Water will attempt to build a channel to the producers so engineering a water flood is critical to minimize this effect. Could more of a fields oil be gotten out? Sure, drill more well in field. But would it be cost effective both in terms of physics and economics?
 
Startup Says It Can Make Ethanol for $1 a Gallon, and Without Cornsounds too good to be true. either way it sounds very promising.
This caught my eye: “Tobey said Coskata’s method generates more ethanol per ton of feedstock than corn-based ethanol and requires far less water, heat and pressure. Those cost savings allow it to turn, say, two bales of hay into five gallons of ethanol for less than $1 a gallon, the company said. Corn-based ethanol costs $1.40 a gallon to produce, according to the Renewable Fuels Association.”

Whatever system is developed it’ll need to use less water than current corn based methods (because: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2201199802681775303)). It’d be interesting what it’s water consumption is. I have a little problem with their math though. At 5 gal per two bales of hay at a cost of $1.40 gal comes to $3,50 per bale of hay. That’s a little cheap for hay (coastal can sell for much more) and doesn’t include the ethanol processing.

And if the following is true they’re getting competative with sugar cane on an EOROEI: “May Wu, an environmental scientist at Argonne National Laboratory, says Coskata’s ethanol produces 84 percent less greenhouse gas than fossil fuel even after accounting for the energy needed to produce and transport the feedstock. It also generates 7.7 times more energy than is required to produce it. Corn ethanol typically generates 1.3 times more energy than is used producing it.”
 
There are a lot of processes that could provide low cost gasoline substitutes.

The only problem with them is that … inconveniently … no one has actually done it. But they COULD. It IS possible, although not so far demonstrated.

Reminds me of the Moller Skycar. Which is an amazing transportation device … except that it has not actually carried a passenger so far. But it could.

Which is why I like methanol better than ethanol.
This caught my eye: “Tobey said Coskata’s method generates more ethanol per ton of feedstock than corn-based ethanol and requires far less water, heat and pressure. Those cost savings allow it to turn, say, two bales of hay into five gallons of ethanol for less than $1 a gallon, the company said. Corn-based ethanol costs $1.40 a gallon to produce, according to the Renewable Fuels Association.”

Whatever system is developed it’ll need to use less water than current corn based methods (because: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2201199802681775303)). It’d be interesting what it’s water consumption is. I have a little problem with their math though. At 5 gal per two bales of hay at a cost of $1.40 gal comes to $3,50 per bale of hay. That’s a little cheap for hay (coastal can sell for much more) and doesn’t include the ethanol processing.

And if the following is true they’re getting competative with sugar cane on an EOROEI: “May Wu, an environmental scientist at Argonne National Laboratory, says Coskata’s ethanol produces 84 percent less greenhouse gas than fossil fuel even after accounting for the energy needed to produce and transport the feedstock. It also generates 7.7 times more energy than is required to produce it. Corn ethanol typically generates 1.3 times more energy than is used producing it.”
 
Corn ethanol typically generates 1.3 times more energy than is used producing it."
Doug50, a colleague told me today that Matt Simmons believes we are at peak now, revising his earlier estimate/ What do you think"? I haven’t seen his statistics.

Petrus
 
Interesting article, the link to which was just posted on
www.climatechangedebate.org

predictweather.com/articles.asp?ID=73

Here is the list of sources from the article.

Sources
editorial, “Brazil’s Not Peaking,” Investor’s Business Daily, December 14, 2007. Courtesy: NCPA)
resources.alibaba.com/topic/214496/Oil_is_not_a_finite_resource_.htm
www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net .
oralchelation.com/faq/wsj4.htm *(Wall St Journal 16/4/99) *
ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=282528707587055
*
Here’s a summary; I had to shorten it by half to fit here.

The sun’s hydrogen is also a finite resource, and at some point in the future our local star is certain to die, and when it does our planet will die with it. But no one lays awake at night worrying over that.

The evidence is more of oil running in, rather than running out. The Eugene Island case is an example. Production at this oil field deep in the Gulf of Mexico off the coast of Louisiana, was supposed to have declined years ago. For a while, it behaved like any normal field. Following its 1973 discovery, production slowed from 15,000 barrels a day to about 4,000 in 1989. Then suddenly, inexplicably, fortunes reversed. The field, operated by Pennz Energy Co., is now producing 13,000 barrels a day, and probable reserves have rocketed to more than 400 million barrels from 60 million. Stranger still, scientists studying the field say the crude coming out of the pipe is of a geological age quite different from the oil that gushed 10 years ago. This means Eugene Island is rapidly refilling itself, perhaps from some continuous source miles below the Earth’s surface.**********************

More and more scientists are now coming to a belief that oil is “a-biotic”, continuing to be replaced by chemical processes in the crust of the earth.

Russia is now the world’s largest oil producer and natural gas producer. The Russians have been saying the fossil-caused oil theory is an unscientific absurdity that is unprovable since the early 1950’s, but the idea is still almost unknown in the West. Western geologists have repeatedly predicted finite oil over the past century, only to then find more, lots more. In the 1950’s the Soviet Union faced ‘Iron Curtain’ isolation from the West. The Cold War was in high gear and Russia had little oil to fuel its economy. Because finding sufficient oil was a priority, scientists at the Institute of the Physics of the Earth of the Russian Academy of Sciences and the Institute of Geological Sciences of the Ukraine Academy of Sciences began a fundamental inquiry in the late 1940’s as to where oil comes from. In 1956, Prof. Vladimir Porfir’yev and team concluded that crude oil and natural petroleum gas had no intrinsic connection with biological matter originating near the surface of the earth but were primordial materials which have been erupted from great depths. They called their theory of oil origin a-biotic to distinguish from the Western theory of fossil origins.

To the Russians, oil supply on earth is limited only by the amount of organic hydrocarbon constituents present deep in the earth at the time of the earth’s formation. To the Russians,availability of oil depends only on technology as they have proven that old fields can be revived to continue producing. They claim oilis formed deep in the earth, formed in conditions of very high temperature and very high pressure like that required for diamonds to form. That oil is a biological residue of plant and animal fossil is seen as a hoax designed to perpetuate the myth of limited supply. Consequently the USSR have now developed huge gas and oil discoveries in regions previously judged unsuitable. After the dissolution of the USSR, Russian geophysicists drilled for oil and gas in the Dnieper-Donets Basin between Russia and Ukrainea, believed for more than forty-five years to be geologically barren. A total of sixty one wells were drilled, of which thirty seven were commercially productive, an exploration success rate of almost sixty percent. The size of the field discovered compared with the North Slope of Alaska. By comparison, US wildcat drilling is considered successful with a ten percent success rate, with nine of ten wells typically dry.

During the 1960’s while the American oil multinationals were busy controlling Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran and other areas of cheap, abundant oil the Russians began drilling in a barren region of Siberia. There they developed eleven major oil fields and one giant field. They drilled into crystalline basement rock and hit black gold comparable to the Alaska North Slope. In the 1980s they went to Vietnam and offered to finance a-biotic drilling costs. The Russian company Petrosov drilled Vietnam’s White Tiger oilfield offshore into basalt rock some 17,000 feet down and extracted 6,000 barrels a day of oil to feed the energy-starved Vietnam economy. By the mid-1980’s the USSR emerged as the world’s largest oil producer. To have produced the amount of oil to date that Saudi Arabia’s Ghawar field has produced would have required a cube of fossilized dinosaur detritus, assuming 100% conversion efficiency, measuring 19 miles deep, wide and high. In short, an absurdity. Western geologists do not bother to offer hard scientific proof of fossil origins. They merely assert it as a holy truth.**************************************************************************************

To conclude, there is no evidence of a lack of crude oil in the world.

… But if 1/250,000 of the earthis oil, an area in total only about the volume of the Mediterranean Sea, which does not seem at all unreasonable, at the present rate of consumption we can drive our SUVs around for anothermillion years. You read it right, a million years.
 
I had to chop a huge amount of the article to shorten it … more than half.

Please read the whole article.

But here are three of the cut paragraphs that I really wanted to include but which wouldn’t fit.

Also read Robert Zubrin’s book “Energy Victory” … he points out a lot of the geopolitical linkages that are causing the alleged shortages and resulting high prices.

From the article in my earlier post:

It now looks as though the world contains far more recoverable oil than was believed even 20 years ago. Between 1976 and 1996, estimated global oil reserves grew 72%, to 1.04 trillion barrels. Much of that growth came with the introduction of computers which made drilling more predictable. The world’s greatest oil pool, the Middle East, has more than doubled its reserves in the past 20 years, despite half a century of intense exploitation and relatively few new discoveries. It would take a pretty big pile of dead dinosaurs and prehistoric plants to account for the estimated 660 billion barrels of oil in the region.

We are also digging smarter. Just when we thought we were running out of oil, technology came along to extract oil from shale rocks in the mid west and Canada. With the recent discovery of the huge Tupi field Brazil went from 17th to the rank of 10th biggest oil producer. China has made 10 major new discoveries this year alone. India was once viewed as an energy no-hoper but is finding energy offshore. Russia is a major producer. Last year Mexico made a huge offshore discovery it has yet to tap and NZ found oil off the southeast coast near Southland. And not only can new technologies recover resources from old wells previously thought tapped out, they can create oil from formerly useless resources, like tar sands, and recover oil and natural gas from previously impossible geography, like the deep blue sea miles beneath the surface.

When US oil output began to decline in around 1970 Hubbert gained a certain fame. The only problem was, it peaked not because of resource depletion in the US fields but because Shell, Mobil, Texaco and the other partners of Saudi Aramco were flooding the US market with dirt cheap Middle East imports, tariff free, at prices so low California and many Texas domestic producers could not compete and were forced to shut their wells in.* Nevertheless, the peak oil myth persisted, because a precious commodity is more highly valued which suits oil producers.******************************************************************
 
Doug50, a colleague told me today that Matt Simmons believes we are at peak now, revising his earlier estimate/ What do you think"? I haven’t seen his statistics.

Petrus
Yeah Simmons, T Boone Pickens, and even Dr Huseini believes the world is at max oil production.

Page down to: “Listen to the interview with Sadad al-Huseini.”
davidstrahan.com/blog/?p=67

Here’s Simmons latest white page: simmonsco-intl.com/files/Another%20Nail%20in%20the%20Coffin.pdf
 
Yeah, and nobody in the technology establishment ever believed that the Wright Brothers would fly. In fact, the establishment put their money behind Langley and he flopped badly.

Even after the Wright Brothers flew, no one took it seriously.

So, just because folks like Pickens say something doesn’t make it true. As someone once said, it is very difficult to make predictions, particularly about the future.

Meanwhile, the United States is maintaining its firm posture of “the deer in headlights”. And, meanwhile, the rest of the world is drilling wells and building pipelines like crazy. So, obviously the rest of the world thinks there are marketable amounts of oil and gas to be found and transported.

If the future was truly all doom and gloom, the rest of the world would be crying in their couscous.
 
Yeah, and nobody in the technology establishment ever believed that the Wright Brothers would fly. In fact, the establishment put their money behind Langley and he flopped badly. Even after the Wright Brothers flew, no one took it seriously.

So, just because folks like Pickens say something doesn’t make it true. As someone once said, it is very difficult to make predictions, particularly about the future.
Al, I don’t think any of us are opposed to exploring new technologies to use as wisely and efficiently as possible what petroleum remains. And you are certainly right that the future is not an open book. My point is that if we approach the future as it if is necessarily a cornucopia waiting to open, we might be in for a nasty surprise. For that reason, it would be useful to prepare as if there won’t be the petroleum we need, as DeeDee and Doug50 have substantiated.
Petrus

Petrus
 
Al, I don’t think any of us are opposed to exploring new technologies to use as wisely and efficiently as possible what petroleum remains. And you are certainly right that the future is not an open book. My point is that if we approach the future as it if is necessarily a cornucopia waiting to open, we might be in for a nasty surprise. For that reason, it would be useful to prepare as if there won’t be the petroleum we need, as DeeDee and Doug50 have substantiated.
Petrus

Petrus
The problem, as I perceive it … is that the “preparations” for reduced petroleum supplies involves population reduction.

When I ask … how would these population reductions take place … the answer is I get is “education”. Which is pretty vague.

When I state that the only way you can reduce the population is by birth control, abortion and euthanasia, I am told that I am incorrect.

So, how DO we reduce the population without those three ways?

In addition, you and Doug have suggested that petroleum is finite and population is infinite and therefore there will be a conflict.

On the other hand, theoretically, petroleum was on a course to run out on the very first day it was developed, a hundred years ago. The fact that there might be a trend means that the trend did not start today or in 1956; the trend started in 1850 or whenever it was that petroleum was first used.

So, theoretically, using the finite supply theory we should never have begun to use petroleum lest we become dependent on it.

THAT is, in fact, the argument.

On the other hand, we really don’t know how much petroleum there is. Not really. If you all are really really certain, maybe you should take bets, giving million to one odds. I put up a dollar and you put up a million dollars.

After all you are totally certain.

On the other hand, just today in Pipeline & Gas Journal ([for January 2008], while there was a spectulative article on peak oil), there were scads of articles on new pipelines and new drilling activity.

The fact is we just don’t know and we keep discovering new oil fields. And the fact is that the number of producing wells in Saudi Arabia is still quite small.

We just don’t know.
 
Al, oil is finite and population is also finite. The question is at what level. The UN is speculating population will level off at ~10 billion. But the question then becomes what is the carring capacity of the world without petroleum, what is the carrying capacity of the world after petroleum goes into decline and there is nothing to replace it with, not just in terms of transportation but in terms of fertalizers and pesticides to grow the food that feeds all the people?

You said: “that the only way you can reduce the population is by birth control, abortion and euthanasia, I am told that I am incorrect…So, how DO we reduce the population without those three ways?”

Starvation, resources wars, to name two, Al. The laissez-faire economics of “well the free market will solve this pending problem and fix us right up” is asking me to put faith in something other then my God.

What if the carrying capcity of the world is only 1 billion without petroleum. There’s 6.5 billion right now. If there’s a solution to petroleum we’d better get to work on it very very very soon.
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You, Al, are free to ignore, disregard, and poo poo those co-relations.
 
So, Doug, where does that leave us??? Hmmmmm???

Birth control, abortion, euthanasia … starvation and resource wars.

[Doug, do you have something really specific to suggest?]

Well, there is another … or two …

Interesting article … I’m reading … about the upcoming Great Chastisement.

OR, we can do penance and reform our lives … and not merely “trust” in God … but actually put ourselves in His Hands … in active ways. Not tempting the Lord. But praying for inspiration and guidance on … not a daily basis … not five times a day as some do … but continuously as we go though our daily routines. When we rely on God, we do well. When we give God lip-service, we do poorly.

FINALLY, … ah, yes, Doug, the UN … the United Nations … what a bunch … the most corrupt organization on the planet … Oil for Food and/or Palaces … for one thing.

The butchery in Botswana, which the United Nations could easily have prevented; they even had troops on site, but pulled them back.

The Sudan, easily stopped.

Ditto for Darfur.

But what does the UN do? Nothing.

Malaria, nearly wiped out. Now claiming a million lives a year. Preventable with existing medical knowledge.

Sorry, Doug, but UN reports have zero credibility.

[Anyone interested in the origins of the UN would do well to research its early years and the involvement of Alger Hiss who we now know was an active agent of the Soviet Union and which was working to take over as many countries as it could in the wreckage and chaos after World War II. Students of the era would do well to read through the various authors of books and articles dealing with the Venona papers. You can even, believe it or not, call the NSA get a set of the actual decrypts for free. Just visit www.nsa.gov and click to the section on history / Center for Cryptologic History … call them and ask for a set.]
 
You’re a real crank ain’t you, Al? 😉

I’ve already told you what I think should be done. I’ve given you links (that you repeatedly ignore and don’t even bother to open).

Let me sum it for you:
1 We need national leadership, like the Sputnik call did for NASA, to motivate a national identity to this coming energy crises. That national leadership does NOT exist…probably because there are so many people just lik you, Al who believe the market will solve the problem. I think it’s sad that so many people are more worried about the Hollywood celebs’ lives then they are their kids’ and future grandkids’ well being. They need to be made aware and be afraid. Sputnik created an irrational fear (people were building fallout bomb shelters) but the fear also created the national will and motivation to adapted to the new reality. A lot of good came out that fear - NASA and all the technology that was bootstrapped to it.
  1. For a long time to come we will not be at a point where we say “oops all the fields have been drilled lets go to house and watch the them deplete.” I’ve got prospects on my books to drill and will be drilled over the next two years. But you see things as though I’m saying there are no more places to drill new production (that’s your strawman) so you keep looking to the news to say “see, see, there’s fields to being drilled in, ah, Brazil!” So what? Depletion WILL overtake new production and world-wide supply into the market will max out. That max out could be a flat for a few years before going into decline or it could roll over and go into decline. A lot of engineers would look at world supply belive production has already flatlined since 2005.
 
Starvation, resources wars, to name two, Al. The laissez-faire economics of “well the free market will solve this pending problem and fix us right up” is asking me to put faith in something other then my God. .
(1) Population reduction through comprehensive education and voluntary family size limitation.

(2) Development of alternative energies that don’t depend on petroleum infrastructure. In particular, develop nuclear generation capacity.

(3) Relocalize to eliminate suburban expansion and long commutes.

(4) Develop high speed electric inter-city rail, and extensive local light rail networks.

(5) Revamp agriculture to be organic and sustainable for the time when petro-chemical fertilizer is no longer available.

Failing these five, we can count on famine, epidemics, water shortages, mass migrations, and resource wars.

Take your pick.

Petrus
 
I’m not a crank.

But I do object to fortune telling from folks whose reliability is “suspect” to say the least. All previous forecasts of doom were absolutely wrong. Totally wrong. [Yeah, I know, but this time it’s different … just like they said the past few (dozen) times.]

Forecasts and projections are not facts. Folks may strongly hold certain beliefs regarding forecasts, but that’s not facts.

You all have yet to analyze where all those previous forecasts went wrong.

I also object to folks telling us that we need to throw the Catholic Church under the bus because of a perceived need by those folks to adopt policies that resemble the “one-child families” of Communist China … we will all have to abide by draconian models of living, officially adopting anti-Christian family planning policies.

All efforts to invent new technology are viewed with total pessimism. [It might be realistic since we have aborted 40 million babies in the United States and perhaps ten times that number in other countries. It only takes one genius to develop some unlikely means of viably accessing energy from the earth. No one could have predicted Hall’s work in successfully extracting aluminium from the earth’s crust.

Cries for “national leadership” are silly. What that cry is for is national dictatorship. Some folks want this country to be taken into a semi-totalitarian, semi-authoritarian state run by technical bureaucrats along the lines of some science fiction movie with everyone living in high density strips along railroad mass transit lines.

[What folks need to consider is that we have those now … and those railroad mass transit lines are already saturated in terms of passenger volume. They are a fantasy that we already know doesn’t work.]

I would suggest folks interested in these areas read “Pascendi” the encyclical of Pope Piux X that documents the errors contained in Modernism. It’s very relevant today; perhaps even more than when it was written before the Russian Revolution.

Folks should also read “Fire in the Minds of Men” by James Billington, the head of the Library of Congress. The book describes the rise of Communism and secular thinking from the 1700’s to date.

All of this Malthusian thinking totally ignores the stunning revolutions in every field that have unexpectedly (defying the “experts”) provided for greatly expanded supplies of food, energy and advances in transportation and communication.
 
All of this Malthusian thinking totally ignores the stunning revolutions in every field that have unexpectedly (defying the “experts”) provided for greatly expanded supplies of food, energy and advances in transportation and communication.
All based on plentiful, cheap oil.
 
All based on plentiful, cheap oil.
Nope!

Guess again.

ALL of the railroads were built based on steam trains that burned coal. Something like 250,000 miles of track in the U.S. alone. The railroads burned coal for almost a hundred years before oil burning locomotives were introduced.

[Do you know why the immense and wealthy Pennsylvania Railroad was almost totally based in Pennsylvania??? Answer: the Pennsylvania coal mines. Huge amounts of coal. I could never figure out why dedicated railroads servicing only coal mines to power plants didn’t burn coal or electricity from the coal fired generators. For them, the coal is practically free; although steam is a nuisance with the boilers and ash disposal and all that. Although with MHD, you could generate electricity without a boiler, bypassing the steam generator completely.]

Ditto, ships. Coal.

The aluminum smelter business was probably almost 100% based on hydro-electric power.

Do we need petroleum to make ammonium nitrate fertilizer?

Quite a bit of the electric power in the U.S. was using oil-fired systems, maybe 17% in1974 , but it’s down to about 3% oil now, with the balance of the percentage taken up with nuke. Of course, the magnitude of the electricity generated has increased quite a lot … up about 50% from 1984 to 2005.

So, no. The only effect of cheap petroleum was to allow our economy to shift from more expensive (and less convenient) coal to less expensive (and more convenient) oil.

There were a lot of railroads that used overhead electric power and that shifted to diesel. No reason why they couldn’t shift back to electric … generated by nuke or by coal. We have a LOT of coal.

What Saudi Arabia and OPEC are doing though, is jerking our chain. Everytime somebody comes up with a cheaper alternative, OPEC abruptly increases their pumping of oil, which abruptly drops the price, which makes the alternatives less cost effective.

At some point, folks will either discover a lot more oil [unlikely in the United States, given the environmental objections] or make geopoltical decisions to focus on something like a methanol alternative as a policy decision to get away from the OPEC blackmail.

The Saudis are “taxing” the United States to the tune of a couple of hundred billion dollars a year. When Congress finally wises up and changes our energy policy to increase domestic production, increase domestic refining of gasolie, increase nuke (which takes ten years), and increase methanol, then the sword that the Saudis is holding over our heads will be taken away from them.

Someone may decide they don’t want to get a seductive phone call from the Saudi Ambassador every time Israel displeases them. And that may be the deciding factor.

So, there is no need to get rid of the liquid fuels issue (which is what petroleum is) by killing off our population or forcing everyone into gulags along the railroads.
 
Al, fact and not spectualtion. The world uses 30 billion+ barrels per year but is only finding on average 7 billion each year. Again, fact for the last 20 YEARS (since cera 1981) the world has been using more oil then what’s been brought on line in new discoveries.

mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/audio/pm/200801/20080129-pm06-peakoil.mp3

so were just going to go back to using coal for trains, planes, ships and you see no problem?
 
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