Petroleum and the future of civilization

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If we had heeded them then and begun to control our spiraling population growth, we might not be in this predicament now, or at least we would have bought ourselves a couple of generations of breathing space to reinvent agriculture and put in place the infrastructure for a comprehensive electric rail transportation grid, and for petroleum-dependent tidal, wind, solar, and geothermal power generation systems.

But we didn’t, and here we are, with the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets melting, sea levels rising, energy supplies dwindling, the population approaching seven billion, and seventeen million children dying each year from malnutrition and starvation.

Petrus
Sorry, but the situation is not anywhere near that dire. Not even close.

Agriculture, world-wide, is producing surpluses.

People who are starving live in totalitarian “command economies” that, by nature, are incompetent.

North Korea is starving; South Korea has tons of food. Question: What accounts for the difference? Answer: The dramatically different “styles” of government and economic systems that they have.

Sorry, but the sea levels are not rising.

The ice sheets are not melting.

If the United States doesn’t want to drill for oil off the coast of Florida, the Chinese are not so inhibited. So the Chinese are drilling off Florida.

Brazil just discovered oil … big oil. And nobody had any idea there was that much oil off the coast of Brazil.

What other happy surprises await us?
 
Sorry, but the situation is not anywhere near that dire. Not even close.
Yes, sea levels are rising incrementally, and while you personally may not live to see the worst of the effects on New York, New Orleans, London, Bangladesh, and Venice, your grandchilren will.

Greenland is melting fast, with meltwater now penetrating through crevasses to the bottom of the ice sheet, making it slide faster. Sled dogs are now idle in North Greenland because the sea ice is too thin for them to travel on. Global waring is reality.

Yes, God’s planetary creation is marvelous. Let’s not screw it up even further than we already have.
 
Seems to me that the Catholic Church has a prohibition on fortune telling.

Very few, if any, people have had any success so far on predicting the future.

By the way,the ice in the Arctic and Antarctic have always cycled back and forth. Proponents of AGW deny it, but the more data we collect, the more we realize that it’s true. The ice around Greenland and Iceland has always cycled back and forth. I have a quote from a diary of Christopher Columbus in which he was surprised to be able to sail 500 miles to the north of Iceland in February 1477.
 
The Club of Rome was ABSOLUTELY certain that oil was shortly going to run out. And they issued the report entitled “The Limits to Growth”.

Their logic was PERFECT.

Complete flop.
Revisiting The Limits to Growth: Could The Club of Rome Have Been Correct, After All?

Over the past few years, I have heard various energy economists lambast this “erroneous” work done. Often the book has been portrayed as the literal “poster child” of misinformed “Malthusian” type thinking that misled so many people into believing the world faced a short mania 30 years ago. Obviously, there were no “The Limits To Growth”. The worry that shortages would rule the day as we neared the end of the 20th Century became a bad joke. Instead of shortages, the last two decades of the 20th Century were marked by glut. The world ended up enjoying significant declines in almost all commodity prices. Technology and efficiency won. The Club of Rome and its “nay-saying” disciples clearly lost!

The critics of this flawed work still relish in pointing out how wrong this theory turned out to be. A Foreign Affairs story published this past January, entitled Cheap Oil, forecast two decades of a pending oil glut. In this article, the Club of Rome’s work was scorned as being the source document which led an entire generation of wrong-thinking people to believe that energy supplies would run short. In this Foreign Affairs report, the authors stated, "…the “sky-is-falling school of oil forecasters has been systematically wrong for more than a generation. In its dramatic 1972 The Limits to Growth report, the group of prominent experts known as The Club of Rome wrote that only 550 billion barrels of oil remained and that they would run out by 1990.”

WHAT THE LIMITS TO GROWTH ACTUALLY SAID

After reading The Limits to Growth, I was amazed. Nowhere in the book was there any mention about running out of anything by 2000. Instead, the book’s concern was entirely focused on what the world might look like 100 years later. There was not one sentence or even a single word written about an oil shortage, or limit to any specific resource, by the year 2000.

The members of the “Club or Rome” were also not a mysterious, sinister, anonymous group of doomsayers. Rather, they were a group of 30 thoughtful, public spirited-intellects from ten different countries. The group included scientists, economists, educators, and industrialists. They met at the instigation of Dr. Aurelia Peccei, an Italian industrialist affiliated with Fiat and Olivetti.

The group all shared a common concern that mankind faced a future predicament of grave complexity, caused by a series of interrelated problems that traditional institutions and policy would not be able to cope with the issues, let alone come to grips with their full context. A core thesis of their work was that long term exponential growth was easy to overlook. Human nature leads people to innocently presume growth rates are linear. The book then postulated that if a continuation of the exponential growth of the seventies began in the world’s population, its industrial output, agricultural and natural resource consumption and the pollution produced by all of the above, would result in severe constraints on all known global resources by 2050 to 2070.
 
“Sorry, but the situation is not anywhere near that dire. Not even close. Agriculture, world-wide, is producing surpluses.”
Lessons from the Green Revolution
soc.iastate.edu/sapp/greenrevolution.pdf
Improving seeds through experimentation is what people have been up to since the beginning of agriculture, but the term “Green Revolution” was coined in the 1960s to highlight a particularly striking breakthrough. In test plots in northwest Mexico, improved varieties of wheat dramatically increased yields. Much of the reason why these “modern varieties” produced more than traditional varieties was that they were more responsive to controlled irrigation and to petrochemical fertilizers, allowing for much more efficient conversion of industrial (name removed by moderator)uts into food. With a big boost from the International Agricultural Research Centers created by the Rockefeller and Ford Foundations, the “miracle” seeds quickly spread to Asia, and soon new strains of rice and corn were developed as well.
By the 1970s, the term “revolution” was well deserved, for the new seeds-**accompanied by chemical fertilizers, pesticides, **and, for the most part, irrigation-had replaced the traditional farming practices of millions of Third World farmers. By the 1990s, almost 75 percent of Asian rice areas were sown with these new varieties. The same was true for almost half of the wheat planted in Africa and more than half of that in Latin America and Asia, and about 70 percent of the world’s corn as well. Overall, it was estimated that 40 percent of all farmers in the Third World were using Green Revolution seeds, with the greatest use found in Asia, followed by Latin America.
Clearly, the production advances of the Green Revolution are no myth. Thanks to the new seeds, tens of millions of extra tons of grain a year are being harvested. But has the Green Revolution actually proven itself a successful strategy for ending hunger?

With the Green Revolution, farming becomes petro-dependent. Some of the more recently developed seeds may produce higher yields even without manufactured (name removed by moderator)uts, but the best results require the right amounts of chemical fertilizer, pesticides, and water. So as the new seeds spread, petrochemicals become part of farming. In India, adoption of the new seeds has been accompanied by a sixfold rise in fertilizer use per acre. Yet the quantity of agricultural production per ton of fertilizer used in India dropped by two-thirds during the Green Revolution years. In fact, over the past thirty years the annual growth of fertilizer use on Asian rice has been from three to forty times faster than the growth of rice yields.
Because farming methods that depend heavily on chemical fertilizers do not maintain the soil’s natural fertility and because pesticides generate resistant pests, farmers need ever more fertilizers and pesticides just to achieve the same results. At the same time, those who profit from the increased use of fertilizers and pesticides fear labor organizing and use their new wealth to buy tractors and other machines, even though they are not required by the new seeds. This incremental shift leads to the industrialization of farming.
Once on the path of industrial agriculture, farming costs more. It can be more profitable, of course, but only if the prices farmers get for their crops stay ahead of the costs of petrochemicals and machinery. Green Revolution proponents claim increases in net incomes from farms of all sizes once farmers adopt the more responsive seeds. But recent studies also show another trend: outlays for fertilizers and pesticides may be going up faster than yields, suggesting that Green Revolution farmers are now facing what U.S. farmers have experienced for decades-a cost-price squeeze.
 
Oil Rises More Than $1 on Signs OPEC’s Lost Control of Prices

By Mark Shenk

Nov. 16 (Bloomberg) – Crude oil rose more than $1 a barrel on speculation that the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries has lost control of prices.

**OPEC can't do anything about the price,'' Venezuela's oil minister Rafael Ramirez said today in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, where OPEC is holding a heads-of-state summit this weekend. Oil prices could reach $100 a barrel soon,’’ he said. **The December futures contract in New York expired today.

OPEC could make things worse with a constrictive output policy but they can't lower prices with additional output,'' said John Kilduff, vice president of risk management at MF Global Ltd. in New York. The expiration of the December contract is adding a lot of volatility to the market. Open interest is plunging so there’s a lack of liquidity.’’ …
 
Doug50, I don’t know whether you find Kunstler’s “bumpy plateau” of energy prices convincing, but it would seem we’ve entered it. How much time do you give before gasoline goes to $10.00 per gallon? I find it astonishing that even in the parking lot of my kids’ Catholic school there are three brand new five-ton Hummers, new enough to have the dealer plates still on them! Lends a new dimension to sin…

Petrus
Oil Rises More Than $1 on Signs OPEC’s Lost Control of Prices

OPEC could make things worse with a constrictive output policy but they can't lower prices with additional output,'' said John Kilduff, vice president of risk management at MF Global Ltd. in New York. The expiration of the December contract is adding a lot of volatility to the market. Open interest is plunging so there’s a lack of liquidity.’’ …
 
That’s the year that “Limits to Growth” says we would run out of oil.

… assuming no new sources were discovered.

Now’s that’s quite an assumption.
 
anthropogenic global warming fear is taking attention away from our unsustainable lifestyles and instead focuses on feel good measures that will no doubt increase the wealth and power of the select few. how many times have we heard about some wealthy individual who thinks building their million dollar dream ‘green’ home makes them good resoponsible people, or the global warming activist from holywood who flies to martha’s vineyard on a private jet to stay at their exclusive beach house.

everyone in our society thinks they are good. we have no idea how much we sin and how much we offend God. we are all hypocrites, especially me.

we’ve become over dependent on a globalized society and are estranged from creation so to speak. it’s no coincidence that people in rural areas tend to be more religious. we encounter God in creation.

i see in the gospel a way of living with the cycles of creation, with and in nature. this is part of the monastic lifestyle. perhaps when western civilization undergoes another dark age due to the collapse of our cheap oil based economy, we will once again go to the catholic monasteries to find civilization.

there’s no surer way to increase your faith then to totally depend on God for sustinance.
 
Doug50, I don’t know whether you find Kunstler’s “bumpy plateau” of energy prices convincing, but it would seem we’ve entered it. How much time do you give before gasoline goes to $10.00 per gallon? I find it astonishing that even in the parking lot of my kids’ Catholic school there are three brand new five-ton Hummers, new enough to have the dealer plates still on them! Lends a new dimension to sin…

Petrus
That I don’t know. I’m surpised oil has risen this high this fast…however, the devalued dollar will increase the price of imports, which is what’s been happening. That devaluation ups the price per barrel paid so what’s paid isn’t straight supply & demand.

Geo-politically, even if the world is just shy of an actual geological limit in production global politics could keep the world from actually hitting the potintial maxium production. For example, I have a friend who is a petroleum engineer working offshore in Nigeria. He told me the situation there is getting worst, not better.
 
anthropogenic global warming fear is taking attention away from our unsustainable lifestyles and instead focuses on feel good measures that will no doubt increase the wealth and power of the select few. how many times have we heard about some wealthy individual who thinks building their million dollar dream ‘green’ home makes them good resoponsible people, or the global warming activist from holywood who flies to martha’s vineyard on a private jet to stay at their exclusive beach house.

everyone in our society thinks they are good. we have no idea how much we sin and how much we offend God. we are all hypocrites, especially me.

we’ve become over dependent on a globalized society and are estranged from creation so to speak. it’s no coincidence that people in rural areas tend to be more religious. we encounter God in creation.

i see in the gospel a way of living with the cycles of creation, with and in nature. this is part of the monastic lifestyle. perhaps when western civilization undergoes another dark age due to the collapse of our cheap oil based economy, we will once again go to the catholic monasteries to find civilization.

there’s no surer way to increase your faith then to totally depend on God for sustinance.
You and I think a lot alike.

Where small towns lost their local retail support I can see that being revitalized more closely to that of earlier 20th century…but it can’t be exactly the same.

Today we have too many people who could commute via internet but drive to the office instead. Internet commuting is going to become a necessity.

BTW I have another friend who heads an electric coop. He says Texans’ electric bills could double in 2-3 years since we won’t build coal fired generating plants here.
 
That’s the year that “Limits to Growth” says we would run out of oil.

… assuming no new sources were discovered.

Now’s that’s quite an assumption.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limits_to_Growth
One key idea that the book Limits to Growth discusses is that if the rate of resource use is increasing, the amount of reserves cannot be calculated by simply taking the current known reserves and dividing by the current yearly usage, as is typically done to obtain a static index. For example, in 1972, the amount of chromium reserves was 775 million metric tons, of which 1.85 million metric tons were mined annually. (See exponential growth.) The static index is 775 / 1.85 = 418 years, but the rate of chromium consumption was growing at 2.6% annually (Limits to Growth, pp 54-71). If instead of assuming a constant rate of usage, the assumption of a constant rate of growth of 2.6% annually is made, the resource will instead last 93 years ( (note that the book rounded off numbers)).

The static reserve numbers assume that the usage is constant, and the exponential reserve assumes that the growth rate is constant. For petroleum, neither assumption was correct in the years that followed due to the OPEC’s oil embargo, followed by a return to increasing production.

Whether intended or not, the exponential index has often been interpreted as a prediction of the number of years until the world would “run out” of various resources, both by environmentalist groups calling for greater conservation and restrictions on use, and by skeptics criticizing the index when supplies failed to run out. For example, The Skeptical Environmentalist states: “Limits to Growth showed us that we would have run out of oil before 1992” (page 121). **What Limits to Growth actually has is the above table which has the current reserves (that is no new sources of oil are found) for oil running out in 1992 assuming constant exponential growth. **

IOW, Al, it wasn’t Limits to Growth who predicted the 1992 date. It was The Skeptical Environmentalist who gave this date in an attempt to discredit Limits to Growth’s exponential arguments.
 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World3

There are a lot of critiques to “Limits to Growth”.

This is one, although the author of the Wiki article, says, “yeah, but…”

What happens is that when the year of collapse comes and goes without a catastrophe, then they say, yeah but.

They discount the adaptability of man. Ingenuity.

A couple of examples:

The continent of Africa is grossly underutilized in terms of natural resources. Once upon a time, what is now desert was in fact, the breadbasket of the Roman Empire. There is a port city, Leptis Magna, that exported grain to Rome. Now the desert is right up to the Med and the city is abandoned.

The fact is that there is potential.

There have been proposals to run sea water into the natural basin on the western edge of Egypt the Qattara Basin ] which would permit evaporation and potentially some rainfall … or at least some opportunity for harnessing the sun to evaporate fresh water … which would transform that part of the desert into farms.

The Dead Sea is dropping due to evaporation, but mostly because the Jordan River water is being diverted. There have been proposals to run sea water to the Dead Sea which would improve the water situation in the region.

These are just two of a thousand (or maybe ten thousand) “potentials”.

Similarly, there are lots of substitutions of natural resources that the “relatively” static computer models do not allow for. As the cost of one resource increases, then ingenious folks find acceptable subsitutes.

What has happened is that relatively recently, things were made of metal or wood, but because petrochemicals resulted in cheaper alternates, substitutions were made.

So we HAVE seen substitutions. But, they were TOWARD the use of petroleum.

There is nothing to prevent “migration” of substitutes AWAY from petroleum and petrochemicals.
 
Al, as I said earlier just because something can be done in the lab it doesn’t mean that will translate to the general population. IOW what can be done in the lab maybe irrelivant to costs. For example, we know that it is possible to send a space craft to Mars with stored Hydorgen and then use solar photaics to combine carbon from the Marrtian atmospher to produce methane rocket fuel. Can it be done? yes. Can it be done for every Joe Q public working factorty jobs here on Earth? No.

What I worry about is the suburban infratucute that could fail economicaly. Cities zone themselves in a way that is totally dependent upon cheap and abundant gasoline to survive.

There is an agument that cities should be built more of the way they had originally been planed rather than the way surbia, via zoning code, are currently built. Here’s a lecture on the subject of zoning planing:
Part 1 of 9
Part 2 of 9
Part 3 of 9
Part 4 of 9
Part 5 of 9
Part 6 of 9
Part 7 of 9
Part 8 of 9
and Part 9 of 9
 
You Catholics, think of the future situation this way: You have grand ideas for parish development for social structures…youth centers, basketball courts, etc. all of which will cost money not only in the form of initial construction but also in the form of insurance, and mantainence cost…money that will have to come form desposable wealth…That wealth was there through the later half of the 20th century…Will this desposalbe wealth be there when oil beings its inventual decline???

I look at Catholic Parishes in the earlier 20th century and compare them to the later 20th century models and can’t imagine how the later model could not revert to the earlier one after oil begins to deplete. As Dr Robert Hirsch said in the congressional hearings of Dec, 7 2005: media.globalpublicmedia.com/RAM/2005/12/HouseEnergyCommitee.20051207.ram

Robert Hirsch (~time into audio 1:19)"…but you weren’t considering peak oil when you put that bill together. If you dig into peak oil it’s probably going to be one of the most the most depressing subjects that any of you will ever have to think about and worry about because it takes not mush time to think about what happens if there is less and less oil avaible…you need to get a head start on this 20 years ahead of time…"
 
I found this discussion on the critique of the notion of “peak oil”:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

And ya gotta not rely on just mere headlines. Everyone knows there is a “push-pull” going on between the news pages of the Wall Street Journal and the editorial page. One is liberal and the other is conservative.

Anyway, the front page article included this set of sentences:

“Traditional peak-oil theorists have argued that global oil production will soon peak and enter an irreversible decline becuse nearly half of the available oil in the world has already been pumped.”

“They’ve been proved wrong so often that their theory has become debased.”

But newer arguers bring up other issues: restricted access to oil fields, spiraling costs and increasingly complex oil-field geology. "

So there are all kinds of “issues” [to the point that it has become nearly a candidate for a psychological evaluation … the advocates of “peak oil” have created a kaleidoscope of interlocking conditions:
  1. Limited number of petroleum engineers (often caused by high starting salaries luring people in and low salaries for senior experienced engineers driving them out of the field);
  2. Totalitarian regimes controlling and mismanaging existing oil fields;
  3. Aging pool of oil field workers (perhaps caused by low population growth);
  4. Political restrictions on drilling off shore of the United States [I mean, like, if you are forbidden to drill where the oil and gas are, then what good is it?];
  5. Political restrictions on use and development of natural gas, coal, nuclear and hyro power (all of which are substitutes for oil and some of which are even located in the same places as oil);
  6. The suppressed ORIGINAL study on geopressurized methane originally called the MOPPS study (replaced by a censored MOPPS II report).
There is much more to this discussion, but we are constrained by the limits to space here and the IRS rules on not getting into politics.

But telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is an issue.
 
You Catholics …
Now, I think we are making some progress in this discussion!

Now, we are getting down to the nitty gritty.

"Youuuuuu CATHOLICS! "

Wow.

Says a lot as to what kind of thinking … or perhaps the emotions down in the pit of the stomach… is going on.

Speaks to motivation?

Core values of the speaker?

Is the issue of “peak oil” really a way … a vehicle … a poor excuse … to suppress Catholics? Catholics are traditionally poorer than the average bear. So, by creating some phoney issue about “peak oil” … we’re running out of natural resources … so the only way to keep it for “ourselves” is to prevent Catholics from getting any of it.

And we do that by re-cranking up the scare about “we’re running out of natural resources”.

This is not about oil. It’s about suppressing development and suppressing the future of Catholicism by suppressing the numbers of the population of Catholics and Catholic countries/regions.
 
Now, I think we are making some progress in this discussion!

Now, we are getting down to the nitty gritty.

"Youuuuuu CATHOLICS! "

Wow.

Says a lot as to what kind of thinking … or perhaps the emotions down in the pit of the stomach… is going on.

Speaks to motivation?

Core values of the speaker?

Is the issue of “peak oil” really a way … a vehicle … a poor excuse … to suppress Catholics? Catholics are traditionally poorer than the average bear. So, by creating some phoney issue about “peak oil” … we’re running out of natural resources … so the only way to keep it for “ourselves” is to prevent Catholics from getting any of it.

And we do that by re-cranking up the scare about “we’re running out of natural resources”.

This is not about oil. It’s about suppressing development and suppressing the future of Catholicism by suppressing the numbers of the population of Catholics and Catholic countries/regions.
Again here’s two more databased position
energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Oilreport_10-2007.pdf

aspousa.org/proceedings/houston/presentations/Chris%20Skrebowski%20megaprojects.pdf

What matters, Al, is refuting these arguments with data
Sorry but you not evern close with the above argument. I AM CATHOLIC and have been all my life. When to Novina last night as a matter of fact. The moderator asked that I try to keep this discussion relavant to Catholics. If there are no equally economically viable alternatives to oil when oil supplise start to decline the likely fact will be that people (and that means parishes) will have less income to do parish *social *projects.

Al, you have two inside oil men in this debate, myself and Dee Dee, and we are both saying the same thing. What gives your agument more credibility than ours? I have a friend who is an engineer for Exxon working offshore of Nigeria. When he on duty for a month at a time he’s the guy in charge of the drilling. He’s worked Alaska, Qatar, Australia, Gulf of Mexico, and now Nigeria…He believes the same as I do even though his boss, whom he knows personally, Rex Tillerson publicly doesn’t agree that oil production will peak for 20+ years.

It is a straight fact that you cannot produce more oil than you find.


You can choose to not believe my argument but if your going to argue against it then you need to, using actaul data rather than rhetoric, to refute the databased argument links I’ve presented.

For example the two links are related. The first one is Matt Simmons giving a lecture and the second is the slide projection he is refering to. IOW open both in two seperate windows and follow the pdf slide while listening to the lecture. The lecture is 28 minutes long. I welcome a refutation. Eventhough this lecture is one year old I’ve never seen a refutation.
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-429585738009344102
simmonsco-intl.com/files/ASPO-Boston.pdf
 
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