Petroleum and the future of civilization

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Yep… we’re just going to switch from those volumes of oil to what?..corn?..grass?..hydrogen?..coal?..what?..since the economic need for this stuff is only NOT used as a liquid fuel but for the petrochemical products made from oil. 60% of a barrel is used for fuel the rest is used for petrochemicals…including the chemicals used for agrecultural crop production. Hydrogen can’t fill this need. At a 2% annualized growth rate the 200 years of coal deposits (at current use estimates) would be used up in about 80 years.

I can see these alternatives filling the gap as oil begins to deplete but in the longrun (100 years) I can’t see alts filling that many pools.

Trust me, Al, if you can present the data to counter the arugments from these peak oil pessimists you will make my day. I’ve looked for that data but haven’t found it on internet. The only argument I’ve found from the optimists was undecovered oil yet to be drilled, oil sand, and oil shale…as if we can just tally up the depsoits and modern society is OK. Just don’t bother with the details of how these deposits will meet cost effective economic demands at the rates demanded.
 
Demonstrate where the previous generations of pessimists went wrong with their forecasts and estimates of doom. [And don’t just say, “This time is different”.]
Yep… we’re just going to switch from those volumes of oil to what?..corn?..grass?..hydrogen?..coal?..what?..since the economic need for this stuff is only NOT used as a liquid fuel but for the petrochemical products made from oil. 60% of a barrel is used for fuel the rest is used for petrochemicals…including the chemicals used for agrecultural crop production. Hydrogen can’t fill this need. At a 2% annualized growth rate the 200 years of coal deposits (at current use estimates) would be used up in about 80 years.

I can see these alternatives filling the gap as oil begins to deplete but in the longrun (100 years) I can’t see alts filling that many pools.

Trust me, Al, if you can present the data to counter the arugments from these peak oil pessimists you will make my day. I’ve looked for that data but haven’t found it on internet. The only argument I’ve found from the optimists was undecovered oil yet to be drilled, oil sand, and oil shale…as if we can just tally up the depsoits and modern society is OK. Just don’t bother with the details of how these deposits will meet cost effective economic demands at the rates demanded.
 
The real decision will be made by 6 billion people doing what they think is best for themselves. The human race has survived dought pestilance and a couple global warmings and ice ages and it will figure out what it has to do to survive this crises de jour.
 
Getting Catholic: abolition of station wagons was “anti-family”. Families, particularly, LARGE families need cars that carry a bunch of people and a lot of stuff. But without station wagons, folks were forced to buy vans instead.
Since the planet is not expanding, and there is no sign that Jesus is coming on clouds of glory any time in the foreseeable future, Catholics sooner or later are going to have to get used to replacement rate families of one or two children. Starting to reduce the population sooner will prevent more suffering later. Encouraging large families now – as Pope Benedict did in December 2005 – will ensure that many more will starve to death or die in resource wars a couple of decades from now. Some would argue that suffering builds character, and I don’t disagree with that. But I love children and hate to think of them having to confront the famines, mass migrations, and resource wars coming over the horizon.
 
I’d suggest your interviewing Kenneth Deffeyes phd geologist with Princeton university, Mattew Simmons, Colin J. Campbell Phd geologist, Congressman Roscoe Bartlett Phd, Peter Tertzakian.
Thanks, Doug50. My physicist and oil-developer colleague knows most of the above through ASPO. It’s good that Bartlett is in Congress, but discouraging that his is a relatively lone voice. The book I’m editing will be a theological response to the coming liquid fuels crisis – it should appear in late 2008.

Petrus
 
The real decision will be made by 6 billion people doing what they think is best for themselves. The human race has survived dought pestilance and a couple global warmings and ice ages and it will figure out what it has to do to survive this crises de jour.
Stevegravy, you have hope, and hope (like faith and love) is a virtue we will all need as the end of oil comes upon us.

Petrus
 
Today, the price of petroleum is very high. We can buy petroleum from another countries.
 
On this Thanksgiving Day, let us give thanks to God.

Decades ago, the pastor announced a plan to build a new parish school. When confronted by the lack of money to build the school, the pastor said, “God will provide”.

The skeptics just shook their heads.

Well, the school did get built. God did provide.

So, let us praise God and thank Him for all His Gifts to us.

Let us all keep in mind, that we humans are finite. We are soooo finite, that we lack perfect knowledge and we lack perfect understanding.

So, by all means, let us give thanks to the Infinite God.

He is so much more creative than we are.

We are only just now beginning to get inklings of how little we really know.

Keep fighting the good fight of faith.

Oremus.
 
Today, the price of petroleum is very high. We can buy petroleum from another countries.
Yes, aarathi, but the oil fields of more than half the exporting countries are in decline. We and other countries cannot buy foreign oil indefinitely.
Petrus
 
Thanks, Doug50. My physicist and oil-developer colleague knows most of the above through ASPO. It’s good that Bartlett is in Congress, but discouraging that his is a relatively lone voice. The book I’m editing will be a theological response to the coming liquid fuels crisis – it should appear in late 2008.

Petrus
I understand Simmons has brushed up Mitt Romney is up on this issue.
 
I understand Simmons has brushed up Mitt Romney is up on this issue.
Doug50, what does being “up on the issue” mean for Mitt Romney? I hate to be cynical, but what can any politician do who really understands the predicament? You can’t just tell people to abandon their McMansions and move closer to electric rail lines. You can’t expect them willingly to trade in their SUVs for hybrid vehicles. Of course, you can exercise leadership in pushing for high-speed intercity electric rail, and for intra-city light rail. And you can educate people about the the need for smaller families, for buying locally-grown food, for telecommuting from home offices, and for taking more local less oil-intensive vacations. I hope the next president takes such leadership.
Happy Thanksgiving,
Petrus
 
Doug50, what does being “up on the issue” mean for Mitt Romney? I hate to be cynical, but what can any politician do who really understands the predicament? You can’t just tell people to abandon their McMansions and move closer to electric rail lines. You can’t expect them willingly to trade in their SUVs for hybrid vehicles. Of course, you can exercise leadership in pushing for high-speed intercity electric rail, and for intra-city light rail. And you can educate people about the the need for smaller families, for buying locally-grown food, for telecommuting from home offices, and for taking more local less oil-intensive vacations. I hope the next president takes such leadership.
Happy Thanksgiving,
Petrus
Not sure. I only know Simmons said he’s been meeting with Romney.

Interesting article
Time: Peak Possibilities Nov 21, 200

With the Wall Street Journal running a front page article and this Time article maybe Peak Oil will move into mainstream discussions where it needs to be.
 
Unfortunately, recommendations need to be practical.

It takes many decades to come up with “high-speed intercity electric rail” and “intra-city light rail” and “locally grown food” and all the rest. [Northern New Jersey will NOT be growing large quantities of food in the near future … unless perhaps they start with “Soylent Green”!]

The geography of the United States is radically different from the geography of Europe or Japan. Distances in the U.S. are much longer. And, at least along the East coast, there are a lot of rivers and hills that create sharp curves, river crossings and steep grades … all of which cause slower speeds. Currently, AMTRAK’s rail capacity is about filled up. So extra trackage would be be needed; that would require extensive condemnation of private property, not to mention YEARS of environmental impact statements.

Yeah, yeah, MAGLEV magnetic levitation ]. Maglev can get us “trains” that can travel at 300 mph or more. But the curves and accelerations and decelerations would be harsh (to say the least), not to mention the problems associated with acquisition of the right-of-way, etc, etc, etc. It’s not much more than an amusement park ride at this point. You’re not going to be able to mix slow freights and fast passenger service on the same set of “tracks” [yeah, yeah, guideways].

If the situation is so dire that the “crossover” point for “peak oil” would occur within five years, then there is almost nothing that can be done within that time frame.

It DOES, however, create an obligation on the part of the popularizers of the notion of “peak oil” to examine and re-examine their data. Consider that all of the previous advocates of “peak oil” were just plain wrong. We need to examine WHY all of those forecasters were wrong. Where did they err? What happened?!!!

In each case, the existing reserves turned out to be much more plentiful than the forecasters had estimated. NOT ONLY, were the existing reserves plentiful and not scarce, but also many commercial and industrial processors converted to petrochemical applications instead of away from petrochemicals. The costs of petrochemicals became cheaper rather than more expensive than the alternatives.

In addition, new oil supplies were discovered, to the extent that enough reserves were calculated to exist that needs for the foreseeable future could be accommodated.

Now, we have new oil discoveries near Brazil and near Mexico. Seems like new discoveries are happening on a weekly basis.

And that’s just oil. Natural gas seems to be abundant. As is coal. Nuke is enjoying a resurgence.

Yes, the low-hanging fruit has been picked, so that the newer discoveries cost more to access. Whoopee-do. That’s normal. As costs increase, existing fields will be the recipients of more sophisticated management … and who knows … maybe some of those third world dictatorships will loosen up a little and give up some aspects of the command economy.

Meanwhile, folks are ordering whole fleets of the Super Jumbo Airbus A-380 aircraft (seating about twice the number of passengers as a Boeng 747 [depending on configuration). Obviously, those folks … many of which are located in Middle East oil countries … think that they can get all the oil they want over the next 50 or 100 years.

drpmjhess;2999221 said:
Doug50, what does being “up on the issue” mean for Mitt Romney? I hate to be cynical, but what can any politician do who really understands the predicament? You can’t just tell people to abandon their McMansions and move closer to electric rail lines. You can’t expect them willingly to trade in their SUVs for hybrid vehicles. Of course, you can exercise leadership in pushing for high-speed intercity electric rail, and for intra-city light rail. And you can educate people about the the need for smaller families, for buying locally-grown food, for telecommuting from home offices, and for taking more local less oil-intensive vacations. I hope the next president takes such leadership.
Happy Thanksgiving,
Petrus
 
marketoracle.co.uk/Article2860.html

Oil for heating use will cost customers nearly 22 percent more than they paid last winter according the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

“Prices of propane and heating oil have never been higher at the start of the heating season,” said Jim O’Neal, energy analyst with Wisconsin’s Office of Energy Independence. He’s forecasting home heating oil costs to rise by 25% to 30% from last winter, and propane prices to rise by 10 to 15%. Prices of those fuels track closely with the price of crude oil, which touched a record above $90 a barrel

The Energy Information Administration projected the cost of heating with electricity will average 7.1 percent more than a year ago. Heating with natural gas will cost 10.1 percent more than in 2006.

China is rationing diesel at pump stations in at least four booming coastal provinces in the widest-scale rationing seen since 2003, as rising global oil prices hit output at loss-making Chinese refiners. “We are rationing. Supplies are getting short,” said a sales executive with top refiner Sinopec Corp.

In an effort to ease the pressure of diesel shortages, China’s economic regulator announced an almost 10% increase in domestic gasoline and diesel prices, calling the move an “urgent step” needed to dampen demand and encourage refiners to ramp up production. The price hike is a means to alleviate the shortages in China as the worst fuel crisis in two years has spread to the capital and other inland areas.

Canadian natural gas output could skid by as much as 15 percent in the next two years because energy companies have cut back on drilling to cope with high costs, middling prices and a strong domestic currency, the country’s energy regulator said. The National Energy Board said gas delivery from Canada – the main source of imported supplies for the United States – could fall to 14.5 billion-15.8 billion cubic feet a day by 2009 from 17.1 bcfd at the end of 2006.

Leading figures from the Middle East oil industry added their voices to those warning that the world is struggling to sustain crude oil production. “There is a real problem - that supply may not be possible to increase beyond a certain level, say around 100 million barrels,” Libya’s National Oil Corp chairman Shokri Ghanem said at an industry conference. “In some countries production is going down and we are not discovering any more of those huge oil wells that we used to discover in the Sixties or the Fifties” added Sadad al-Husseini, a key architect of Saudi Arabian energy production policy for more than a decade.

By Joseph Dancy,
Adjunct Professor: Oil & Gas Law, SMU School of Law
Advisor, LSGI Market Letter
 
i’m looking at data of a potential giant field offshore in domestic waters. besides the technical challenges which must be overcome to produce this field, there are the constant environmental hurdles and reservoir rock risks that may make this structure non-economic. and this field compromises the best known resource we discovered to date in this basin.

in other offshore areas that i work with, there are almost no fields that are being produced. it’s pathetic, but this hasn’t dampened industry interest in these areas.

basically, many foreign prolific oil producing regions have been nationalized and or proven too volatile for industry. now they’re exploring in remote high risk domestic areas that may be more favorable and stable for oil development.
 
Inasmuch as there have been many many previous forecasts of the end of petroleum, and whereas in each case the forecast turned out to be erroneous,…

… then… would someone kindly explain why those earlier forecasts went wrong … and why this time is different.

There are geological issues and political issues, among other things.

For example, geologists may differ and perhaps upgrade their estimates of the potential capacity of a particular oil-bearing formation.

It is a totally different issue … if some dictator prevents the “oil industry” from extracting that oil. The issue of a “command economy” is totally different from the purely geological potential of any particular oil field.

Let’s not confuse the two.

There is always hope for a democratic, free-market government to replace a totalitarian, corrupt, dictatorial, command economy.

AND, if the political process goes the other way … if a stable democratic free-market economy is replaced by a totalitarian state with one-person rule, then the extraction of the oil (or gas) (or coal) (or uranium) may change, but the potential for the field will not … political issues don’t change the geology.
 
Unfortunately, recommendations need to be practical. Distances in the U.S. are much longer. .
No, distances are not much longer. A kilometer is the same length in the US as it is in Asia or Europe. It’s just that Americans have chosen to travel longer distances than Europeans or Asians have; they have chosen to settle far from their families. As travel costs increase, families will live closer together as they do elsewhere in the world, and move about less. Or else they will simply not see their extended families as much. Hopping from California to New Jersey for the Thanksgiving weekend will become a thing of the past.
 
Inasmuch as there have been many many previous forecasts of the end of petroleum, and whereas in each case the forecast turned out to be erroneous,…

… then… would someone kindly explain why those earlier forecasts went wrong … and why this time is different.
You simply can’t produce more oil than you discover and the discovery rate per year is trending down.

Oil Shock!

Oil Shocks: Past and Future

Causes of Oil Shocks: Past & Future

http://www.pre.nl/eco-indicator99/image/oil_discovery.gif

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http://wolf.readinglitho.co.uk/chartimages/r/r3oildiscav.gif

 
Doug50, thanks for these helpful explanatory graphs. I got the same question when I spoke on end of oil at the Metanexus International conference in 2006 ("Why should we believe end-of-oil predictions now, yada, yada, ), and these visuals are quite sobering and instructive. There was a conservative Catholic Spanish team presenting just after we did, who argued that the human carrying capacity of the earth is 180 billion people. This prompted great amusement because they based it solely on daily water requirements. One scholar suggested in response that we could pass water bottles up as people sat twelve deep on each other’s shoulders.

I’m working on religious and ethical considerations as we approach the end of cheap energy. I have become a reluctant convert to nuclear, as that may be the best way to preserve fossil fuels for fertilizer to keep billions alive. However, even here we have moral considerations, including that fat that uranium mining will take place extensively on lands belonging to indigenous peoples.

Petrus
 
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