Petros/Petra Attic/Koine

  • Thread starter Thread starter ChrisR246
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you want to see some really good research on petros-petra-kepha, go take a look at freetowne.com/pppk

yep, it’s actually got sources, references, etc… just basically “linguistics”
 
In one of the Catholic.com tracts, Karl Keating explains that the claim

petra = big rock while petros = little stone

is valid for Attic Greek but in Koine Greek the two words are synonomous. He even notes a Protestant Greek scholar.

Does anyone know of an online, neutral source that supports this - it would make online apologetics a little more powerful, IMO.
Hi Chris,
No I’m not aware of Neutral sources; And I don’t actually think it’s very important to show as there are better facts to use when discussing Matthew 16:18; and also, Karl doesn’t appear to have exhaustively studied the issues in Greek of that passage.

Some years ago, when I was just barely able to read Greek (and made mistakes…) I probed this issue; at the time, I was trusting of what several authors (including protestant authors had said) but was not wise enough to check the original Papyrus, vellum, etc. I’m sure Karl has to do the same things at times. I tried using lexicons, and reading scholars at this time 7 years ago – and that led to mistakes…
But, there is one post that is still quite decent…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=579353&postcount=42
The data can be found online:
sacred-texts.com/cla/homer/greek/ili16.htm

And the quote would be:
ἑτέρηφι δὲ λάζετο πέτρον
μάρμαρον ὀκριόεντα τόν οἱ περὶ χεὶρ ἐκάλυψεν, 735
Where “rock” is the word shown bolded; it is not feminine.

What is significant about the above passage is that the argument would need to be made that the “pebble” he wields in his hand is capable of not just embedding in the forehead of an enemy like (David. vs. Goliath), but is capable of smashing the entire forehead of the enemy, removing the brains, which is essentially the act of a boulder…

"The sharp stone (pebble?) caught him in the forehead, smashing his brows together and shattering the skull so that the eyeballs spurted out and dropped into the dirt where his feet were, he flipped over backward … " etc.

Karl’s comments, though, are really only aimed at one passage: Matthew 16:18.

The passage in Matthew 16:18 is curious in a couple of ways; the author does change usage from masculine to feminine;

But – in Greek grammar – and not just Petros vs. Petra – feminine gender is a way to signal the use of a “collective” noun; a noun representing a “group” or “subgroup”.

The “enemy” chased me, for an English example, could be more than one person. Rock is also a collective word in English. “Petra” is also a collective noun in Greek; so the question arises, a group of how many?

Without context, and without paying very careful attention to the grammar of the sentence – “Petra” could refer to Christ, Abraham, The popes who follow Peter (with Peter), or the twelve apostles (excluding St. Paul?).

However, in context – it refers to peter alone – but as part of a group.

To understand this, begin by looking at Jeremiah 51:25-26 and consider that Jerusalem had become a “whore” sent to Babylon at the time of the Exile; This is the same region (Chaldees) that Abraham originally came from many years before.

Now, Jeremiah is contrasting the true Jerusalem/Israel with a false one – and notice what he says about the false one; She will produce no rock/foundation.

With this idea in mind, the issue with Matthew 16:18 becomes much more clear; To show exactly how strong a relationship it has – consider also Isaiah on the same theme ( with the same chapter number, by coincidence!)

Is 51:1-2 (RKV)
“Think of the Rock you were quarried from, of the hidden depths whence you came, of Abraham that begot you, of Sara that was your mother.”

blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Isa&c=51&v=14&t=LXX
1ἀκούσατέ μου οἱ διώκοντες τὸ δίκαιον καὶ ζητοῦντες τὸν κύριον ἐμβλέψατε εἰς τὴν στερεὰν πέτραν ἣν ἐλατομήσατε καὶ εἰς τὸν βόθυνον τοῦ λάκκου ὃν ὠρύξατε

Abraham is spoken of as a feminine rock (collective, hint hint…) Therefore, Abraham is the rock from which all of Israel (Including Jesus Christ) were “hewn”.

Jesus is a new cornerstone… and was prophecied… This is important… for:

The cornerstone prophecy is explicitly found In psalm 117/118, and all the elements found in Matthew 16:18 are also found; The “Gates”, death/sheol, (vv: 17-21) And the builder, and a structure.

However, there is an additional element – the stone of Prophecy is neither Petros nor Petra; It is a different word altogether – it is Lithos.

sepd.biblos.com/psalms/118.htm
22λίθον ὃν ἀπεδοκίμασαν οἱ οἰκοδομοῦντες οὗτος ἐγενήθη εἰς κεφαλὴν γωνίας

The difference in wording is quite remarkable in Matthew 16:18, for Jesus didn’t say the obvious – and upon this “Lithos” I will build my church. Yet, all the writers in the new testament are very careful that the stones associated with his rejection; For example Jesus tombstone was “Lithos” and not “Petros/a.”.
In reality, Petros indicates a kind of stone, eg: “flint”. Not a size of stone.

One more detail: In Matthew 16:18, the construction of the sentence does not match the typical English translation – it isn’t “and on this rock”, RATHER it has one more word; Saying “this the(or very)” in Greek tells readers that the “collective” rock/group is one that has already been mentioned. In English, that extra “The” should be translated “very”.

As an online resource, look here… You can’t miss the extra “The”!!!
biblos.com/matthew/16-18.htm

If you would like examples of collective nouns being “singled” out by the grammar I just showed, I can easily do so.

I hope this helps some.
 
I had a helpful and abrasive non-Catholic, who apparently didn’t want to state his case publicly (and with good reason??? :D) point out that 1Corinthians 10:4 (10:4 good buddy~!) has Petra, and believes it to mean Jesus Christ. (How annoying and arrogant.)

Although he is correct, it is Petra – he is wrong in making it exclusively Jesus Christ.

Use the bible alone and show where a mountain (Petra) followed the Israelites around in the desert… ? Where is THAT in the BIBLE??? Just another point to ponder when comparing the size of Petros to Petra… !

There are MANY Christs in the Bible. King David was annointed, (Christos), as was Saul, in fact – any leader of the people is “Christ”. Paul doesn’t say “Jesus Christ” he says “Christ”; All the popes are Christs, Moses is Christ, all those who are signs of Jesus’ coming past or present are called Chirst.

I am going to point out (again) that the prophecy says of Jesus that he is “Lithos”, as in a precious stone – a quality stone, NOT Petros or Petra – and Lithos is THE word that all the Gospel writers use of Jesus the Christ – the Cornerstone…

I think it pitiful that anti-catholics are trying to tell me, no – Jesus Christ is a piece of flint, a common stone, something to be thrown at Catholics ??? :D:p

Get REAL folks… READ what everyone in the thread has said and THINK about it before replying rashly.

The church (ekklesia) did exist in the old testament, but not the Church founded by Jesus. As St. Paul says in 1Corinthians 10 – “And for all that, God was NOT pleased with most of them.” (He killed them OFF).

Let me up the argument, and point out what I find obvious from actually READING the bible. Moses was a child of Abraham, Moses therefore is Petra – a “common” stone who SINNED (venially).

DO Look at 1Corinthians 10 – "They all ate the same spiritual food, and and all drank the same spiritual drink, given water by the same PROPHETIC rock.
(The holy Spirit/Pneuma is what speaks through the Prophet, Moses.)

ἔπιον πόμα· ἔπινον γὰρ ἐκ ** πνευματικῆς** ἀκολουθούσης πέτρας, πέτρα δὲ ἦν Χριστός.

Moses himself says ACTS 3:22 “God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.”

Don’t do eisegesis with 1Corinthians, read what the OT said – it doesn’t say a physical rock followed the Israelites around. (BUT MOSES DID!)
Moses himself strikes the flint (petra) with his staff, to GIVE the people water. Moses THE prophet of Jesus. Moses did all these things St. Paul speaks of.

Think about it – Jesus Christ WASN"T born yet, and JESUS ASSUREDLY didn’t build HIS church on the rock in the desert.

Again: Abraham, is called PETRA; his children are called Petra and Petros.

👋 Hello? Does any one get it? Is the message getting through? IT really doesn’t MATTER whether Petros means small rock or not, it doesn’t matter if Keeting’s scholar is right or wrong about Attic Greek. None of these anti-arguments in the slightest affects what was said in Matthew 16:18.

I say you are Cephas, and upon this VERY Cephas I will build my church; and the Gates of Death will not be strong under it. (Gates don’t attack folks, they are for protection and PRISON.)

What man can judge someone and send them to physical death by mere confessional Judgment? (only with words)

Only Peter did this. Read the Acts of the Apostles. Petros is a singular rock, not a collective group, it’s a rock set apart from the hill of Abraham. Peter is DISTINCT.

Jesus could be Petra, but he is FAR more. Jesus’ statement in Matthew 16:18 is utterly BIZARRE if he meant himself.

Oh how non Catholics will wish he had said “Lithos” … too bad for you, he didn’t…

Study the scriptures. It’s amazing what the astute reader will notice.
👍
 
The naturally inclusive nature of the “petra” bedrock could include Christ, especially as that word is used for him in 1 Pe 2:8.
Petra can include Jesus the Christ, but re-read 1Pe 2:8, he is called “Petra” not by those who believe; those who believe call him “lithos” VV. 2:7. “He is something OTHER to those who refuse belief”.

It is in the disbelief context that Peter mentions Jesus both as “lithos”, and that people stumble over him as “Petra”;

The reference to the rock of offense (petra) I am pretty sure is given in the OT by one of the prophets, (Isaiah?) and the context there is not necessarily God himself – rather it is more likely the king who was to take the Israelites into captivity. Foreign kings who took the Israelites into captivity were also called “Christos”; A good example is Cyrus, who is called “God’s anointed”.
However, I still prefer the reading that it is the confession and thus those who make the confession, because it makes more sense in the whole context of Mt 16 and 18.

Like the Jews, the Fathers said lots of things, many of them “contradictory” by modern standards.
The confession is certainly part of the issue there and can’t be excluded.

I like your previous post/link to the idea of the Abyssos and the rock under the temple. Though I will question it a bit – didn’t the demons who entered the swine – THEMSELVES choose to run headlong into the sea?

I’m thinking that fathoming ropes were only so long, and once one goes far enough out to sea – there is no known bottom. It would not only be the pit under the temple that would be considered “bottomless”. Even Jonas (notice the reference in Matthew 17) spoke of his ocean going trip in the fish as being in the realm of the dead. He says something like: The gates of the netherworld have closed around me.

Also, notice in Matthew 16:4 that Jonas is mentioned, and that in 16:5 they all had just crossed the sea?

You’re sure to notice more – the more you study. I know I do.

As an aside, I like to say it has been a pleasure to meet/read you.

(I apologize for my sloppy writing in previous posts! time constraints…!) 🙂

I think you might enjoy looking for the construction “touto THn”, eg: using proper declensions, but with respect to `Emera (day) – which is a good example of a collective noun; and see how the construction is used in practice.
I haven’t exhaustively checked all instances yet – but the pattern and context of usage is very clear in all examples I have found, to date.

👍

–Andrew.
 
below, from an earlier post… (sorry about the edits… I couldn’t include the entire post)
Here’s the data I used for my previous post of the occurances of rock(s) in King James Version (KJV) of the Old Testament and the Hebrew and Greek words in the corresponding verses where the Greek words petra or petros or their variations appear.

.
.
.
Job 14:18 KJV:rock Heb:tsuwr Gk:petra
Job 19:24 KJV:rock Heb:tsuwr Gk:petrais
Job 24:8 KJV:rock Heb:tsuwr Gk:petran
Job 30:6 KJV:rocks Heb:keph Gk:petrwn
Job 39:1 KJV:rock Heb:cela Gk:petras
Job 39:28 KJV:rock Heb:cela Gk:petras
.
.
.
Jeremiah 23:29 KJV:rock Heb:cela Gk:petran
Amos 6:12 KJV:rock Heb:cela Gk:petrais
I really need to point out something about this word “keph” (Hebrew)… Guys, I don’t know how to break it to you, but there is NO WORD “keph” in Hebrew… At least, not one meaning “rock”. The word used in Job 30:6 is “kephim” - which is a Hebrew word used ALWAYS in the plural. There is NO “singular form” of this word in Hebrew. It ALWAYS means “rocks, mountains, crags”, as in “they clambered upon the rocks”.

I keep seeing Catholics saying that “keph” appears in Hebrew, but it does NOT. “kephim” appears in Hebrew.

In modern Hebrew, a word “kef” (sometimes “kaf”) exists, but it means either “palm of the hand” (kaf) or it’s a word having to do with “pleasure” (kef).

Don’t take my word for it. Just google for “odonnell research petros petra kepha” and you’ll find a great website that has all kinds of linguistics info…
 
below, from an earlier post… (sorry about the edits… I couldn’t include the entire post)

I really need to point out something about this word “keph” (Hebrew)… Guys, I don’t know how to break it to you, but there is NO WORD “keph” in Hebrew… At least, not one meaning “rock”. The word used in Job 30:6 is “kephim” - which is a Hebrew word used ALWAYS in the plural. There is NO “singular form” of this word in Hebrew. It ALWAYS means “rocks, mountains, crags”, as in “they clambered upon the rocks”.

I keep seeing Catholics saying that “keph” appears in Hebrew, but it does NOT. “kephim” appears in Hebrew.
Peter was clearly not called KephYm (plural.)
A Yupsilon exists in Greek, but in the Greek - we have the hebrew word transliterated – and it says quite clearly: (1 sentence):
John 1:42; Jesus looked at him and said "You are Simon son of John; You will be called Cephas.
In modern Hebrew, a word “kef” (sometimes “kaf”) exists, but it means either “palm of the hand” (kaf) or it’s a word having to do with “pleasure” (kef).
Don’t take my word for it. Just google for “odonnell research petros petra kepha” and you’ll find a great website that has all kinds of linguistics info…
Well, please explain it to us and show some examples; I mean, that’s what I do when explaining the Greek, it should be possible when explaining the Hebrew, right?

Cheers; and welcome to the thread.
 
OK… About “keph” - which is actually kephim…

here’s some references:

"…for rocks and mountains are called kefim, as in, ‘They clamber up the rocks
(u-va-kefim alu)’. Parashat Re’eh - commentary on the Torah; The Dukhifat or Hoopoe; by Yaron Seri, faculty of Bar-Ilan University in Ramat Gan, Israel ]

…and they ascended among the boulders: Hebrew. ובכפים. סלע"
[Rashi commentary on Jer 4:29; Chabad.org; The Complete Jewish Bible With Rashi
Commentary; http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16001/showrashi/true]

“Kephim is a rare Hebrew word that is always and only used in the plural, and refers to
mountains or large rocks”.
All this info is from freetowne.com/pppk, including the paragraphs below —
Both afformentioned scriptures (Jeremiah and Job), in their Hebrew text, use the word
“kephim”, (actually, וּבַכֵּפִים, pronounced u·vak·ke·fim and וְכֵפִֽים׃, pronounced ve·ke·fim,
respectively) and in the Septuagint, we find that the translation of each instance is a
plural form of petra.
However, it must be understood: the word “keph” (or kef, or hakef, with the defininate
article added) never appears in Biblical Hebrew in the singular, as to mean a single
mountain or rock. In fact, there is no singular word keph (meaning “rock”, “stone” or
anything remotely similar) in Biblical Hebrew.
Since there is no Biblical Hebrew word “keph”, and since the word actually refrenced in
this Assertion is kephim (not keph), this Assertion is untrue.
(MY NOTE: The “Assertion” referred to above is this: Aramaic kepha is cognate to Hebrew keph, a rare word found only in Jeremiah 4:29 and Job 30:6, where it has the sense of mountain crags or rocky terrain. In both texts keph is translated petra in the Greek Old Testament translation, the Septuagint. Basically, the author is saying that “keph” is NOT a Hebrew word, and is NOT a form of “kepha”, and although “kephim” can be translated as “petra, plural form”, there is NO singular form that can be transalated as “petra”.)
 
I’ll just drop a comment.

First of all, I recommend reading Fr. Joseph A. Fitzmyer’s To Advance the Gospel: New Testament Studies, especially the chapter “Aramaic Kepha’ and Peter’s Name in the New Testament” (the chapter is also found in Text and Interpretation: Studies in the New Testament Presented to Matthew Black, BTW), as well as Saint Peter: The Underestimated Apostle by Martin Hengel and Thomas Trapp and The Remembered Peter in Ancient Reception and Modern Debate by Markus Bockmuehl for some discussion about Peter’s name/s (especially Cephas). Bockmuehl summarizes the present academic situation rather nicely:

Peter’s Aramaic name Kēfa’ has been the subject of far more extensive discussion, partly because its ecclesiological significance was for a long time deeply contested between Catholic and Protestant interpreters. The blossoming of ecumenical dialogue and of Roman Catholic biblical studies since Vatican II has meant that the confessional wind has for some time been more conducive to genuine progress and consensus. The exegetical dividing lines no longer fall among predictably denominational lines. The meaning of the Aramaic term כיפא as “rock” or “crag” has been reasonably demonstrated in the Targums and Dead Sea Scrolls, although the implications are still ignored by some recent commentators who deny that kēfa’ could be something one builds upon. This is not of course to say that all the difficulties have been removed. One of the major disagreements concerns the authenticity of Jesus’ saying about Peter as the Rock in Matt 16.18; on this matter the major multi-volume commentaries of the last decade continued to reach opposing conclusions. Another abiding problem is the significance of the wordplay employed in that verse.

Now to business. In some of the Dead Sea Scrolls, we can see some interesting uses of the the Aramaic word כיפא kēfa’. In the Job Targum found in Cave 11 in Qumran (11QtgJob aka 11Q10, cols. 32.1; 33.9, cf. Job 39:1, 28), for example, kēfa’ is used to translate the Hebrew word סֶ֣לַע sel[sup]a[/sup]‘ (‘rock’, ‘crag’, ‘cliff’, ‘mountain’). The word also shows up in the Aramaic fragments of the book of Enoch found in Cave 4. For instance, 4QEn[sup]e[/sup] aka 4Q206, frg. 5, col. 3.19 reads: [w‘mr s]lq lr‘š k]p ḥd rm “[and the sheep: climbed to the sum[mit of] a certain high [cr]ag.” (cf. 1 Enoch 89:29 “And that sheep ascended to the summit of that lofty rock, and the Lord of the sheep sent it to them.”) 4QEn[sup]c[/sup] aka 4Q204 (frg. 4.3) has *tnyn‘ wslq lr‘š kp‘ dn “climbed up [again for] a second time to the summit of that crag.” (cf. 1 Enoch 89:32 “Then that sheep who conducted them went away, and ascended the top of the rock.”) Lastly, 4QEn[sup]a[/sup] aka 4Q201, col. 2.18: [wlm]drk ‘l ‘prh w‘]l [kp]yh l‘ tškḥwn mn ḥmth] “and you are not able to tread upon the dirt or upon the [roc]ks/stones on account [of the heat]” (cf. 1 Enoch 4 “And you seek shade and shelter by reason of the heat of the sun, and the earth also burns with growing heat, and so you cannot tread on the earth, or on a rock by reason of its heat.”) We can see a similar meaning behind these passages: in most of the passages kēfa’ is envisioned to be a sort of rock mass or crag, part of a mountainous or hilly region.

Now, Kepha is not attested as a non-Christian personal name in Hebrew or Aramaic sources from the Second Temple or rabbinic periods. We do have a sole surviving pre-Christian instance of kēfa’ apparently being used as a proper name in a 5th century BC Aramaic text from Elephantine in Egypt. Fr. Fitzmyer compares this instance of kēfa’ with the Hebrew Ṣur (“rock”) which is repeatedly attested in the Old Testament. However, as Bockmuehl argues, “it remains the case that nearly half a millennium of history and culture separates Elephantine from first-century Palestine, where the evidence suggests that Cephas was not current as a name.” Contra Fitzmeyer, Bockmuehl proposes that

The term Cephas would have remained perfectly intelligible in Jewish circles throughout the rabbinic period, so that the name Šim’ōn Kēfa’ could still be readily understood and interpreted in the later legends of the Toledot Yeshu. In the absence of evidence for Cephas as a Jewish name, however, this remains as Peter’s most distinctive epithet – his nickname rather than a proper name. Somewhat contrary to Fitzmyer’s inquiry, it seems likely to have been of interest precisely because it was not a familiar personal name. It is this that characterized him in the Aramaic-speaking churches of Judaea, and which ironically survived even Paul’s move into the Gentile world.

Finally, let’s look at the Septuagint. In Job 30:6, for instance, חֹרֵ֖י וְכֵפִֽים ḥōrê…ḵēfîm (“holes…of the rocks”) is translated as τρῶγλαι πετρῶν trōglai petrōn; in Jeremiah 4:29, וּבַכֵּפִ֖ים עָל֑וּ ûḇakēfîm ‘ālû “they climb among rocks” is rendered as ἐπὶ τὰς πέτρας ἀνέβησαν tas petras anebesan. Also Sirach 40:15: “The branch of violence shall not be unpunished, for the root of the godless is on the tooth of a rock/crag.” (Hebrew: אֶל שֵׁ֑ן סֶ֣לַע ‘el šēn sel[sup]a[/sup]‘; Greek: ἐπ᾽ ἀκροτόμου πέτρας ep’ akrotomou petras “sharp-point of a rock”)*
 
Now to business. In some of the Dead Sea Scrolls, we can see some interesting uses of the the Aramaic word כיפא kēfa’. In the Job Targum found in Cave 11 in Qumran (11QtgJob aka 11Q10, cols. 32.1; 33.9, cf. Job 39:1, 28), for example, kēfa’ is used to translate the Hebrew word

Finally, let’s look at the Septuagint. In Job 30:6, for instance, חֹרֵ֖י וְכֵפִֽים ḥōrê…ḵēfîm (“holes…of the rocks”) is translated as τρῶγλαι πετρῶν trōglai petrōn; in Jeremiah 4:29, וּבַכֵּפִ֖ים עָל֑וּ ûḇakēfîm ‘ālû “they climb among rocks” is rendered as ἐπὶ τὰς πέτρας ἀνέβησαν tas petras anebesan. Also Sirach 40:15: “The branch of violence shall not be unpunished, for the root of the godless is on the tooth of a rock/crag.” (Hebrew: אֶל שֵׁ֑ן סֶ֣לַע ‘el šēn sel[sup]a[/sup]‘; Greek: ἐπ᾽ ἀκροτόμου πέτρας ep’ akrotomou petras “sharp-point of a rock”)

First - my apologies for such crude edits to your post - but I just wanted to (first) address the scriptures refrenced above in Job and Jeremiah…

In Job and Jeremiah - the word “kepha” is NOT USED. The word that is used is “KEPHIM” (as is noted in your text). This is a HEBREW word (note the -im ending, which is a plural ending in Hebrew). The word kephim is ONLY and ALWAYS used in the plural. There is no “singular” form of “kephim” (ie, “keph”) that means “a single stone or rock”. Kephim is always used to refer to mountains, crags, “climb-able rocks”. No doubt, it shared some common “root” with the Aramaic kepha, but they are very different words. Kephim is a Hebrew masculine plural noun, kepha is a feminine singular noun.

(I gave references in my previous post, but you can see very good info on this very matter at freetowne.com/pppk)

So, whoever wrote the info regarding Jeremiah and Job has his information wrong on at least that one point.

As to the Targummims: The word kepha may have indeed been used to translate sela, which is translated petra - BUT - in Aramaic, the word “kepha” was used very much the same as we use the word “rock” in English:
  1. the boy threw the rock into the creek
  2. we went rock climbing
  3. the beach was strewn with tiny rocks
  4. he built his house on a rock
Here, we see “rock” being used to signify “stone”, “crag”, “pebble”, and “bedrock”

In English, we understand the use of “rock” from it’s CONTEXT.

Consider this: In English, we translate “Penon de Gibraltar” as “Rock of Gibraltar”. However, “penon” really means “crag”. (“Roca” is the Spanish word for “rock”). However, in English, “Crag of Gibraltar” doesn’t sound too good, evidently. So, we use “rock”.

We understand “Rock of Gibraltar” only because we have a pre-knowledge of what the Rock of Gibraltar is. However, if we did NOT, then we might think of it as a rock of the same size as, say, the Plymouth Rock (which is a couple of feet wide).

What I’m saying is that in English, we use “rock” to translate LOTS of things, and as English-speakers, we understand (largely from context) what is meant – but that does NOT mean that “rock” is an accurate translation for (say) “penon” (in Spanish) or “escarpe” (in French). NOTE: in French, the word for “rock climbing” is “escalade”… But, we translate both “escarpe” and “escalde” with tremendous inaccuracy in English, using “rock” in both instances.

That is exactly what the Targummim do. They are Aramaic translations of Hebrew or Greek texts, written for an Aramaic audience, and they use the word “kepha” in a very “colloquial” sense - and should NOT be confused with a faithful and accurate translation.

If you want to know what “kepha” really means, you need to study original Aramaic-language documents, not “targummim” (translations). After all, you can’t expect to know the meaning of English words by looking at Chinese translations, can you?

In original Aramaic-language documents, kepha means:
rock, stone, ball…; “which rock (when bored) will give forth water and which…”;
pearls, jewels; fire-balls; hail-stones; “…thou must remove these stones…”;
kissed the rocks (Rashi: corals) of the shore of Ptolemais (as sacred ground);
weighed the stones;
precious stones, jewelry; amber; “has he jewelry suspended on it” (his opinion) ie, must his opinion be accepted?;
gave jewelry in trust; give me my jewelry back;
shore, border; like its shore; the Euphrates grows from (the waters coming down) its shores (not from rain); was hiding himself at the sea-shore; …the shores of… touched each other (the waters rising to the level of the shores;
Rashi: the arches of the ruined bridges, v. infra); arch, vault; bundle, sheaf

(Jastrows Dictionary of Targumim, Talmud and Midrashic Literature)
 
In Job and Jeremiah - the word “kepha” is NOT USED. The word that is used is “KEPHIM” (as is noted in your text). This is a HEBREW word (note the -im ending, which is a plural ending in Hebrew). The word kephim is ONLY and ALWAYS used in the plural. There is no “singular” form of “kephim” (ie, “keph”) that means “a single stone or rock”. Kephim is always used to refer to mountains, crags, “climb-able rocks”. No doubt, it shared some common “root” with the Aramaic kepha, but they are very different words. Kephim is a Hebrew masculine plural noun, kepha is a feminine singular noun.
I think there’s a slight confusion here. In the Aramaic Job Targum’s case, as I’ve noted, kēfa’ is used to translate the Hebrew word sel[sup]a[/sup]‘. So for example, the Hebrew word יַעֲלֵי־סָ֑לַע y[sup]a[/sup]‘ălê-sāl[sup]a[/sup]‘ “wild-goats [of the] crag/mountain” (Job 39:1) is rendered as יעלי-כפא y‘ly kp‘. Job 39:28 סֶ֣לַע יִ֭שְׁכֹּן וְיִתְלֹנָ֑ן sel[sup]a[/sup]‘ yišəkōn wəyiṯəlōnān is translated into Aramaic as בכפא ישכן ויסנן *kp‘ yškwn wysnn …].

And you are correct that kēfa’ has quite a broad meaning here, as the 1 Enoch example shows (ranging from “crags” one could climb on to small “rocks/stones”). But this is the key: in one interpretation (contra Peter Lampe who proposes that kēfa’ meant a rolling stone) expressed by Benedict T. Viviano, O.P. (“Peter as Jesus’ Mouth: Matthew 16:13-20 in the Light of Exodus 4:10-17 and Other Models”) Matthew 16 suggests the image of a temple being constructed, and in Judaism the temple was founded upon the Foundation Stone, the sel[sup]a[/sup]‘, the eḇen hā‘šeṯîyyâh.*
 
I think there’s a slight confusion here. In the Aramaic Job Targum’s case, as I’ve noted, kēfa’ is used to translate the Hebrew word sel[sup]a[/sup]‘. So for example, the Hebrew word יַעֲלֵי־סָ֑לַע y[sup]a[/sup]‘ălê-sāl[sup]a[/sup]‘ “wild-goats [of the] crag/mountain” (Job 39:1) is rendered as יעלי-כפא y‘ly kp‘. Job 39:28 סֶ֣לַע יִ֭שְׁכֹּן וְיִתְלֹנָ֑ן sel[sup]a[/sup]‘ yišəkōn wəyiṯəlōnān is translated into Aramaic as בכפא ישכן ויסנן kp‘ yškwn wysnn …].

And you are correct that kēfa’ has quite a broad meaning here, as the 1 Enoch example shows (ranging from “crags” one could climb on to small “rocks/stones”). But this is the key: in one interpretation (contra Peter Lampe who proposes that kēfa’ meant a rolling stone) expressed by Benedict T. Viviano, O.P. (“Peter as Jesus’ Mouth: Matthew 16:13-20 in the Light of Exodus 4:10-17 and Other Models”) Matthew 16 suggests the image of a temple being constructed, and in Judaism the temple was founded upon the Foundation Stone, the sel[sup]a[/sup]‘, the eḇen hā‘šeṯîyyâh.

OK - I understand what you’re saying, in regards to the Job Targum info – (Job 39:1)

But, this just stresses my point: You cannot presume that “kepha” is an accurate or faithful translation of “sela”, because of the broadness of use of kepha.

Just because a writer of a targum used the word kepha to translate sela simply means that it was “usable” in that manner, in that context, for Aramaic readers.

Again, I point out our own “broad” (and quite inaccurate) translations we commonly use in English:

roca (sp) = rock
penon (sp) = rock
piedra (sp) = rock
rocher (fr) = rock
pierre (fr) = rock
escarpe (fr) = rock

See what I mean? The above “translations” from Sp or Fr to Eng are all “common” translations, but two-thirds of them are entirely inaccurate. They can “work” in our English context (USUALLY) but the fact is, using “rock” to translate both “roche” and “pierre” can be terribly misleading…

Think of it this way: If you translated a Spanish document that used roca, penon, and piedra - and used “rock” as the translation of each one - and then, translated BACK into Spanish – guess what??? Your “re-translation” would be totally WRONG in Spanish…

So, all I’m saying is that you cannot make the mistake of looking at a word translated in a targum as an accurate “lexiographic” (?) representation of the original word…

Granted, sela was translated kepha, but the bottom line is that it’s no more accurate of a translation than “rock = pierre, rocher and escarpe”…

“Sela” has a particular meaning. “Kepha” does not (in common, colloquial usage). If you wrote “I saw the ‘sela’” (in Hebrew), it has a distinct meaning. If you translate that as “I saw the ‘kepha’” (in Aramaic) you run the risk of losing the meaning altogether.

In short - there is no way one can “equate” sela and kepha, in terms of actual “meaning”. Arguably, the far more faithful and accurate translation of Heb sela is Aramaic shu’a.
 
OK… About “keph” - which is actually kephim…

here’s some references:

"…for rocks and mountains are called kefim, as in, ‘They clamber up the rocks
(u-va-kefim alu)’. Parashat Re’eh - commentary on the Torah; The Dukhifat or Hoopoe; by Yaron Seri, faculty of Bar-Ilan University in Ramat Gan, Israel ]

…and they ascended among the boulders: Hebrew. ובכפים. סלע"
[Rashi commentary on Jer 4:29; Chabad.org; The Complete Jewish Bible With Rashi
Commentary; http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16001/showrashi/true]
“Kephim is a rare Hebrew word that is always and only used in the plural, and refers to
mountains or large rocks”.
Hi Aussie!
I actually agree with you in one sense, but in another I don’t.
I will have to ignore Patrick457’s comments for right now as I don’t have the DSS handy, and those are important to look at critically;

I want to note first, that Dr. Roy’s mention of the hebrew also including large rocks is consistent with what I have found for both Petra and Petros outside of scripture. Cyclopse, in one of Homer’s works, lifted a “Petra” to block a cave entrance – which shows both that it isn’t a mountain, itself, and that it is moblie.

Switching to the hebrew, and studying Keph from the OT; eg: looking for all words containing keph or kephym (/im); I am noticing quite strongly that there are almost no passages where either of the words can be easily defended as meaning only rock. (translations not withstanding.)

The scholars you cite mention the meaning of “palm” for kef. That appears to be solid scholarship, but perhaps a crude analysis of the nuance. If Kephym were to be “rock” as opposed to a plural of kef (as Todd is just following the standard paradigm of singular vs. plural endings…) then we should NOT find it meaning “palms” or “hands” it would be exclusive – however, that isn’t the case; which doesn’t solve the riddle that you correctly present… but only deepens it.

See Lamentations 2:15.
Lamen 2:15 ספקו עליכ כפימ כל-עברי ורכ שרקו וינעו ראשמ על-בת ירושלמ הזאת העיר שיאמרוכלילת יפי משוש לכל-הארצ.
mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3202.htm

“clap their hands at thee.”

In all passages I looked at (and I am not a Hebrew scholar, just a student…) I could find a common meaning of keph which satisfies the general context of the passage without the word meaning “rock” at all.

I would like to take a debate position where I hold that it only means rock by some kind of association; and not by primary definition. (In our dictionaries, we list most common definitions first – and then secondary meanings – I am suggesting the same, here.). I could be wrong, I am just taking a chance based on experience.

I have too much information to post at once, and I think it better to spread this out into a conversation – hopefully, the thread won’t become terribly cluttered with rapid fire conversations – otherwise, if you’d like – I could start another thread.

I already mentioned that all descendants of Abraham are “rocks” drawn forth from the “Quarry” of Sarah. Peter and Jesus both qualify for the name “rock” based merely on their race. But there is something that I am seeing which is perhaps being over-looked by the scholars mentioned so far; A quarry is the womb, or woman (female) from which the children are drawn. Christ took on flesh from a woman, and the church ITSELF is a female.

Now, given that idea – consider that I will hold that Keph (and kephYm) – indicate the hollow and palm of a hand; Palm would be correct, but I think the cup of the hand is a connotation. This hollow is the “shovel” or “spoon” from which things are dug, water held, incense and grain for sacrifice and cooking measured, etc.

Now, consider these passages (before I comment on them in detail).
Song of Solomon 4:4-5; Isaiah 49:16; and look at the context, and especially at the sexual inuendo / double entendre.

The differences and inferences are surprising for it makes me want to look for Clues in the Greek that refine the notion of Rock, or explain the disconnect between the languages and the obvious primary meaning of words:

We are told that Petros means Cephas in John – but by interpretation.
John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

What is curious, is why – when a far more common word in Hebrew and Aramaic was available, did Jesus choose a word who’s primary meaning ISN’T rock, and then have it translated into Greek with a word which means only a common basaltic/flint rock?

The connection I see is Abraham, Sarah, and the idea of a womb.
eg: a womb, grotto, and/or pit; which is associated with death, the nether world, and new life. (Job is a very strong clue to this issue – since it appears in the naming of Peter in all places.)

What are your thoughts?

Mt. 16:18
Caesarea Philipi…
//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarea_Philippi
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Banias_-Temple_of_Pan_001.jpg/250px-Banias-_Temple_of_Pan_001.jpg
 
Hi, Huiou Theou!

wow! lots of stuff to talk about! I’ve put some comments down at the bottom for you…
Hi Aussie!
I actually agree with you in one sense, but in another I don’t.
I will have to ignore Patrick457’s comments for right now as I don’t have the DSS handy, and those are important to look at critically;

I want to note first, that Dr. Roy’s mention of the hebrew also including large rocks is consistent with what I have found for both Petra and Petros outside of scripture. Cyclopse, in one of Homer’s works, lifted a “Petra” to block a cave entrance – which shows both that it isn’t a mountain, itself, and that it is moblie.

Switching to the hebrew, and studying Keph from the OT; eg: looking for all words containing keph or kephym (/im); I am noticing quite strongly that there are almost no passages where either of the words can be easily defended as meaning only rock. (translations not withstanding.)

The scholars you cite mention the meaning of “palm” for kef. That appears to be solid scholarship, but perhaps a crude analysis of the nuance. If Kephym were to be “rock” as opposed to a plural of kef (as Todd is just following the standard paradigm of singular vs. plural endings…) then we should NOT find it meaning “palms” or “hands” it would be exclusive – however, that isn’t the case; which doesn’t solve the riddle that you correctly present… but only deepens it.

See Lamentations 2:15.
Lamen 2:15 ספקו עליכ כפימ כל-עברי ורכ שרקו וינעו ראשמ על-בת ירושלמ הזאת העיר שיאמרוכלילת יפי משוש לכל-הארצ.
mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3202.htm

“clap their hands at thee.”

In all passages I looked at (and I am not a Hebrew scholar, just a student…) I could find a common meaning of keph which satisfies the general context of the passage without the word meaning “rock” at all.

I would like to take a debate position where I hold that it only means rock by some kind of association; and not by primary definition. (In our dictionaries, we list most common definitions first – and then secondary meanings – I am suggesting the same, here.). I could be wrong, I am just taking a chance based on experience.

I have too much information to post at once, and I think it better to spread this out into a conversation – hopefully, the thread won’t become terribly cluttered with rapid fire conversations – otherwise, if you’d like – I could start another thread.

I already mentioned that all descendants of Abraham are “rocks” drawn forth from the “Quarry” of Sarah. Peter and Jesus both qualify for the name “rock” based merely on their race. But there is something that I am seeing which is perhaps being over-looked by the scholars mentioned so far; A quarry is the womb, or woman (female) from which the children are drawn. Christ took on flesh from a woman, and the church ITSELF is a female.

Now, given that idea – consider that I will hold that Keph (and kephYm) – indicate the hollow and palm of a hand; Palm would be correct, but I think the cup of the hand is a connotation. This hollow is the “shovel” or “spoon” from which things are dug, water held, incense and grain for sacrifice and cooking measured, etc.

Now, consider these passages (before I comment on them in detail).
Song of Solomon 4:4-5; Isaiah 49:16; and look at the context, and especially at the sexual inuendo / double entendre.

The differences and inferences are surprising for it makes me want to look for Clues in the Greek that refine the notion of Rock, or explain the disconnect between the languages and the obvious primary meaning of words:

We are told that Petros means Cephas in John – but by interpretation.
John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

What is curious, is why – when a far more common word in Hebrew and Aramaic was available, did Jesus choose a word who’s primary meaning ISN’T rock, and then have it translated into Greek with a word which means only a common basaltic/flint rock?

The connection I see is Abraham, Sarah, and the idea of a womb.
eg: a womb, grotto, and/or pit; which is associated with death, the nether world, and new life. (Job is a very strong clue to this issue – since it appears in the naming of Peter in all places.)

What are your thoughts?

Mt. 16:18
Caesarea Philipi…
//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarea_Philippi
Regarding “petra”: actually, “immovable” isn’t necessarily part of the definition of petra. I could imagine (but, just imagining) that the stone rolled in front of Jesus’ tomb MIGHT have been considered “petra”, for example… Generally, “petra” is just a great big rock formation or rock mass - something that could not normally be picked up by just one person… The definition of petra in Liddell-Scott-Jones is:

A. rock; freq. of cliffs, ledges, etc. by the sea; free from rocks, of a beach; also, rocky peak or ridge - of Caucasus - of Parnassus - of the Acropolis
2. a hollow rock, i.e. a cave, cave in the rock with a double entrance, down to virgin rock,
3. mass of rock or boulder
4. stone as material
distd. from πετρος (q. v.), which is v.l. in X.l.c.; ??? shd. be read in S.Ph.272 ; the distn. is minimized by Gal.12.194.

Regarding “kef” or “keph”: I can see you’ve been doing your homework… However, really, I believe (with a pretty high degree of certainty) that the Hebrew word for “palm” (as you are talking about) is actually pronounced “kaf”, with a very soft “a” vowel sound. If I’m not mistaken (and please correct me if I am), that’s what that little “yod” character is doing in the word… basically makes it “kaf”, not “kef”…

The only scriptures I know about where “kefim” (kephim) is used are Jeremiah 4:29 and Job 30:6. In the Septuagint, the translation of both instances is “petra”.

Some people say “see, ‘keph’ is in the OT, and it’s translated petra, and therefore it proves that kepha can be translated petra”…

My point I was making earlier is that the word is “kefim”, not “kef”, and although it may share some “root” in Aramaic, the Hebrew word is quite different from the Aramaic “kepha”, because it’s only, and always used in the plural, always used to refer to mountains, crags, large rocks, and is masculine, not feminine (like kepha). So, it’s a very long stretch to use this argument to support the notion that kepha can be translated petra… (Granted, there may be OTHER arguments to use, but not this particular one)

You made the question “What is curious, is why – when a far more common word in Hebrew and Aramaic was available, did Jesus choose a word who’s primary meaning ISN’T rock, and then have it translated into Greek with a word which means only a common basaltic/flint rock?”

I think this actually just gets back to that pronounciation thing… I really think the Hebrew word “kef” is actually pronounced “kaf”…

There is a MODERN Hebrew word that IS pronounce “kef” - but, it basically refers to a sense of pleasure - usually derived from narcotics… like “being high”… It’s pretty much a slang word…

I’m really VERY interested in seeing more of your comments and research!!!
 
Hi, Huiou Theou!

Regarding “petra”: actually, “immovable” isn’t necessarily part of the definition of petra. I could imagine (but, just imagining) that the stone rolled in front of Jesus’ tomb MIGHT have been considered “petra”, for example…
If you look at the Greek, it’s Lithos – which is some kind of ornate stone. The garden belonged to a rich man, and the tomb was hewn out of stone (bedrock?).
Generally, “petra” is just a great big rock formation or rock mass - something that could not normally be picked up by just one person… The definition of petra in Liddell-Scott-Jones is:
A. rock; freq. of cliffs, ledges, etc. by the sea; free from rocks, of a beach; also, rocky peak or ridge - of Caucasus - of Parnassus - of the Acropolis
2. a hollow rock, i.e. a cave, cave in the rock with a double entrance, down to virgin rock,
3. mass of rock or boulder
4. stone as material
distd. from πετρος (q. v.), which is v.l. in X.l.c.; ??? shd. be read in S.Ph.272 ; the distn. is minimized by Gal.12.194.
And notice it says “dist.” (distinguished???) from petros?
That was the point of the earlier post… Petros, too, may be a boulder; and although I started with LSJ some 7 years back – I don’t find the definitions very well stated.

For example, the definition order is odd in LSJ, 2 is obviously less common than 3 or 4.

I do agree with the frequency of the word being used for cliffs, ledges, etc.;
but to the best of my knowledge, it has nothing to do with the size of the rock – but the type of rock. eg: flint or basalt. Often, for example, in the old testament – the word shows in compound words of smaller items, eg: descriptions of people faces, or horses hooves (divine ones…), or “flint” knives. (The latter also having association with sexual function…).
The size of the rock is un-important in these passages; what is important is that the rock when struck will release sparks, or that it is very hard and capable of taking blows. etc.
Regarding “kef” or “keph”: I can see you’ve been doing your homework… However, really, I believe (with a pretty high degree of certainty) that the Hebrew word for “palm” (as you are talking about) is actually pronounced “kaf”, with a very soft “a” vowel sound. If I’m not mistaken (and please correct me if I am), that’s what that little “yod” character is doing in the word… basically makes it “kaf”, not “kef”…
I’ll let someone with more experience answer that idea; Vowels generally were not included in the texts that predate or were contemporary with Jesus – so (with the exception of Aleph, Ayin,yod) – most vowels were understood by tradition or exclusion of possibilities from the consonants written.

For this reason, I think it best to organize the words based on the consonants and written vowels when it comes to the meaning of the word/root.

Todd placed an “e” there; and when I read John 1:42, there is clearly an long vowel, either E or A. (Eta, Ayta); and generally the former is preferred.
John 1:42 ηγαγεν αυτον προς τον ιησουν εμβλεψας αυτω ο ιησους ειπεν συ ει σιμων ο υιος ιωαννου συ κληθηση κηφας ο ερμηνευεται πετρος

So, I am sure that at least some of the time – the word is pronounced with an “e” sound. As far as I know, the yod and mem added to the end of “Kf” just adds the sound “im” or “yim”; but I have no idea what it would do to earlier vowel sounds.
The only scriptures I know about where “kefim” (kephim) is used are Jeremiah 4:29 and Job 30:6. In the Septuagint, the translation of both instances is “petra”.
Some people say “see, ‘keph’ is in the OT, and it’s translated petra, and therefore it proves that kepha can be translated petra”…
My point I was making earlier is that the word is “kefim”, not “kef”, and although it may share some “root” in Aramaic, the Hebrew word is quite different from the Aramaic “kepha”, because it’s only, and always used in the plural, always used to refer to mountains, crags, large rocks, and is masculine, not feminine (like kepha). So, it’s a very long stretch to use this argument to support the notion that kepha can be translated petra… (Granted, there may be OTHER arguments to use, but not this particular one)
In English, we say “Goat” and “GoatS”, adding just one letter to indicate a plural. As far as I know – “KF” vs “FKym” is the same thing – Hebrews add two letters to indicate plural male. As an aside: since male is inclusive (in English – all men are created equal includes “women”) there are in fact many instances where a Hebrew word with the plural male ending is not about plural males at all… (I would have to look up some examples, and I can’t right now.)

But in the passage in Job 30:6, for example, that word could also mean a “hollow”; and not explicitly refer to rocks at all.

Job 30:6 בערוצ נחלימ לשכנ חרי עפר ו-כפ-ימ

The dashes are inserted by me; the leading uav means “and”, it is a letter of usage (a prefix). In English, were accustomed to a space coming between particles and words, but that isn’t the way the scriptures are written. Words like “to” “from” “and”, etc. are actually combined with the word that follows them.

So when I read Job, and I see this translation:
Job 30:6 To dwell in the cliffs of the valleys, in caves of the earth, **and **in the rocks.

So, I am simply going to note that word “and” is the Uav coming before “Kf” (כפ). My concern is that there is no way, based on the consonants of the scriptures to tell the difference between “kaf-ym” or “kef-ym”; I therefore am going to assume they are the same, unless I can find examples which distinguish them clearly in scripture or the DSS. etc.

Notice: In Job 30:1-2 there are references to “them”, and flocks, and their “hands”; we then have a disccusion of this “flock” being scattered into various wild places where they try to hide – in valleys (depressions), caves of “earth” (dirt?), and then the “hollow” as of a hand. All three are about con-cave objects; The third, which is translated “rock”, might easily be a Jewish idiom for any sheltered place (eg: a grotto, or a carved place like Petra.) Notice, there is no “among” the rocks in Hebrew – just “in”; and that’s odd – for “rocks” are solid…

I need to eliminate these possibilities before becoming certain that Job 30:3 is literally translated word for word into the LXX and not just a figure of speech implying a grotto, or carved out place.
You made the question “What is curious, is why – when a far more common word in Hebrew and Aramaic was available, did Jesus choose a word who’s primary meaning ISN’T rock, and then have it translated into Greek with a word which means only a common basaltic/flint rock?”
I think this actually just gets back to that pronounciation thing… I really think the Hebrew word “kef” is actually pronounced “kaf”…
Well, let’s assume it is pronounces “kaf” for a moment; how would I show that the sound made one word “hand” and another “rock” without assuming it?

eg: Can you show other examples in Hebrew (the OT) where adding YM or im changes both the sound and the meaning of a word – into totally un-like things?

That would be a great help.

(I have to sleep now, but the morrow is another day to learn something new.)
 
Regarding “petra”: actually, “immovable” isn’t necessarily part of the definition of petra. I could imagine (but, just imagining) that the stone rolled in front of Jesus’ tomb MIGHT have been considered “petra”, for example…
Huiou Theou already answered it, but I’ll have a go.

The blocking stone at the door of Jesus’ (or more properly, Joseph’s) tomb is a lithos, although the tomb itself is hewn out of petra (as per Matthew and Mark; Luke 23:53 uses the adjective laxeutō).
 
You’ve covered quite a bit in this post! 🙂
If you look at the Greek, it’s Lithos – which is some kind of ornate stone. The garden belonged to a rich man, and the tomb was hewn out of stone (bedrock?).
Regarding the stone rolled in front of Jesus’ tomb: I tried to make it clear that my “guess” was just a “guess”… I didn’t bother to look that one up. shrug I just “guessed” that the word MIGHT have been petra, because petra can mean “stone, used as a building material”, and generally speaking, “stone building materials” are indeed movable (but, not necessarily by one person)… Bad guess on my part…
And notice it says “dist.” (distinguished???) from petros?
That was the point of the earlier post… Petros, too, may be a boulder; and although I started with LSJ some 7 years back – I don’t find the definitions very well stated.
Are you surprised that petra is distinguished from petros? I’m not. They’re totally different words. And, I’ve never seen petros used to mean a “boulder” - but, maybe you’ve read something that I haven’t, and if so, I’d really like to know what it was. (I’m still learning too)…
For example, the definition order is odd in LSJ, 2 is obviously less common than 3 or 4.

I do agree with the frequency of the word being used for cliffs, ledges, etc.;
Yep, I agree - it would seem that definitions 3 & 4 are more common than 2… shrug
but to the best of my knowledge, it has nothing to do with the size of the rock – but the type of rock. eg: flint or basalt. Often, for example, in the old testament – the word shows in compound words of smaller items, eg: descriptions of people faces, or horses hooves (divine ones…), or “flint” knives. (The latter also having association with sexual function…). The size of the rock is un-important in these passages; what is important is that the rock when struck will release sparks, or that it is very hard and capable of taking blows. etc.
Regarding “size of rock” vs “type of rock”: Nope, SIZE MATTERS. I’m not sure why you’re talking about the Old Testament when you’re referring to the Greek language. Maybe you’re referring to the Septuagint? Well, you can’t go looking in a Greek translation of Hebrew to find accurate meanings of Greek words. All you’ll find by looking at the Septuagint is how Hebrew-speakers translated their own words. It may or may
not be a translation that is faithful to the original. In English, we do exactly the same (bad) thing: For example, the Hebrew word “nephesh”: When used in reference to a human, it means “a living soul”, but when used in reference to an animal, it means “a creature”. The difference? The difference is that the TRANSLATOR had a pre-determined position that animals don’t have souls. Bottom line - it’s a bad translation.
My concern is that there is no way, based on the consonants of the scriptures to tell the difference between “kaf-ym” or “kef-ym”; I therefore am going to assume they are the same, unless I can find examples which distinguish them clearly in scripture or the DSS.
etc.
.
.
.
Well, let’s assume it is pronounces “kaf” for a moment; how would I show that the sound made one word “hand” and another “rock” without assuming it?
OK, for starters:

The Hebrew word for “palm of hand (etc)” is כפ
The Hebrew word “kephim” is כֵּפִים

Above, you can see the difference more clearly, hence, the difference in pronunciation.
“Palm of hand” is “kaf”… I checked with a Hebrew-speaking person on this one. And
the other word, “kefim”, is pronounced with the short-e sound. The difference in pronunciation is determined by those “markings” beneath the letters (which, by the way, I wrongly referred to as “yodh” in my earlier post)

I think you’ve got an interesting “theory” going, but it’s dependant on the two words - “kaf” and “kefim” - having the same pronunciation (minus, of course, the plural -im ending on “kefim”). But, they’re just not pronounced the same.
 
patrick457

Regarding the stone rolled in front of Jesus’ tomb: I tried to make it clear that my “guess” was just a “guess”… I didn’t bother to look that one up. shrug I just “guessed” that the word MIGHT have been petra, because petra can mean “stone, used as a building material”, and generally speaking, “stone building materials” are indeed movable (but, not necessarily by one person)… Bad guess on my part…

My “intent” in my original posting was simply to say that a “petra” does not necessarily mean an absolutely immovable rock…
 
You’ve covered quite a bit in this post! 🙂

Regarding the stone rolled in front of Jesus’ tomb: I tried to make it clear that my “guess” was just a “guess”… I didn’t bother to look that one up. shrug I just “guessed” that the word MIGHT have been petra, because petra can mean “stone, used as a building material”, and generally speaking, “stone building materials” are indeed movable (but, not necessarily by one person)… Bad guess on my part…
Oh! Not a problem. I totally understood – I know you can’t hear the tone of my voice – but I’m not at all down on you. I just didn’t know how to phrase my response to be less abrasive. I expect you’re grasping at a very large number of unknown possibilities ! Time constraints are something that I find to be the bane of apologetics…
Are you surprised that petra is distinguished from petros? I’m not. They’re totally different words. And, I’ve never seen petros used to mean a “boulder” - but, maybe you’ve read something that I haven’t, and if so, I’d really like to know what it was. (I’m still learning too)…
Here, go back to this post – I know you entered the thread late, and perhaps didn’t catch all the nuances.

If Petros is masculine, then it is a word that belongs in the subject of a Greek sentence; It must have a mate called “Petron” which is also masculine and belongs in the predicate part of a sentence. In grammar, petros is called “nominative” (a subject), and petron is called accusative (an object/direct object). Finding Petron, then, is just as good as finding petros.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9314078&postcount=40

The LSJ sees a distinction, but in actual examples – that hypothesis can be shown to be strictly False – even if statistically supportable.
Yep, I agree - it would seem that definitions 3 & 4 are more common than 2… shrug
👍
Regarding “size of rock” vs “type of rock”: Nope, SIZE MATTERS. I’m not sure why you’re talking about the Old Testament when you’re referring to the Greek language. Maybe you’re referring to the Septuagint? Well, you can’t go looking in a Greek translation of Hebrew to find accurate meanings of Greek words.
Well, that would seem to imply that I can’t go looking in English bibles and expect English words to be used correctly.
All you’ll find by looking at the Septuagint is how Hebrew-speakers translated their own words. It may or may
not be a translation that is faithful to the original.
I may have over-interpreted your previous sentence…
Yes, I fully agree. But there are many translations, and they are many instances of most words. By using context and comparing large numbers of words and multiple translations – the faithfulness of translation can be determined and even unknown languages deciphered. (The Rosetta stone…!)
In English, we do exactly the same (bad) thing: For example, the Hebrew word “nephesh”: When used in reference to a human, it means “a living soul”, but when used in reference to an animal, it means “a creature”. The difference? The difference is that the TRANSLATOR had a pre-determined position that animals don’t have souls. Bottom line - it’s a bad translation.
I agree, there is inconsistency in translation of some words. That is important to take into consideration… It’s part of why I am looking at Job so carefully.
OK, for starters:
The Hebrew word for “palm of hand (etc)” is כפ
The Hebrew word “kephim” is כֵּפִים
Above, you can see the difference more clearly, hence, the difference in pronunciation.
“Palm of hand” is “kaf”… I checked with a Hebrew-speaking person on this one. And
the other word, “kefim”, is pronounced with the short-e sound. The difference in pronunciation is determined by those “markings” beneath the letters (which, by the way, I wrongly referred to as “yodh” in my earlier post)
I see, those dots are called pointing. Pointing is something that Rabbi’s did not have in scripture until a thousand (crude estimate) years after Jesus.
The choice of vowel, before that time, was purely a matter of tradition. Since languages are fluid regarding pronunciation, I don’t consider pointing to be a good apologetic; It’s far too easy to be led astray by slang/historical developments and anachronistic insertions – eg: a later Rabbi might have made a mistake about which pointing to put on a word…! With only two examples of a word with a particular set of dots… it’s hard for me to feel secure about claims based only on pointing.
I think you’ve got an interesting “theory” going, but it’s dependant on the two words - “kaf” and “kefim” - having the same pronunciation (minus, of course, the plural -im ending on “kefim”). But, they’re just not pronounced the same.
Oh, I see - when I am tired, I write less clearly.

I am asking you to find a different word (not kaf/kefym) that has the same characteristics you are using in the apologetic you learned from a third party.

This hypothetical other word (without pointing) needs to be spelled identical in all letters except “ym” (ימ). (Leading letters of usage can be cut off without my complaint! eg: Lamed, uav, etc.)

So what I am asking is if we can find (it may not be an easy task) another root word which has the same issues as KF; and the more examples of the change issue – the BETTER – and stronger the evidence it provides.

Analogically; if we found a word which met these criteria – and which meant say: bird without the ym, and door with the ym – I would be forced to admit that Hebrew CAN and does change meaning based on addition of “ym”. If we found three words that clearly did this – the evidence becomes quite convincing.

This type of argument is very strong apologetically, because it shows that the change of meaning argument isn’t just made up to defend rock or as a Jewish Rabbi joke about “rock” apologetics (I am not accusing anyone, and even if we don’t find it – I’ll keep looking for it myself…!)

It’s my habit to check what Dr.'s say, and carefully use the most defensible arguments. Finding a new apologetic which is very strong is something difficult, but very satisfying to me.

I’m enjoying this exploration of scripture very much. Thank you. The issues you bring up are quite provocative.

Your brother in Christ, Jesus
–Andrew.
 
Hey, Andrew!

Yep, I came into the thread kind of late, regarding the Greek stuff…
Ahhh - BTW - I really enjoy the conversation with you as well… You seem to be a very “studious” type, and I think we’re alike in that…

SO - an idea… Let’s go with this Hebrew stuff…

You said: * I am asking you to find a different word (not kaf/kefym) that has the same characteristics you are using in the apologetic you learned from a third party.

This hypothetical other word (without pointing) needs to be spelled identical in all letters except “ym” (ימ). (Leading letters of usage can be cut off without my complaint! eg: Lamed, uav, etc.)

So what I am asking is if we can find (it may not be an easy task) another root word which has the same issues as KF; and the more examples of the change issue – the BETTER – and stronger the evidence it provides.

Analogically; if we found a word which met these criteria – and which meant say: bird without the ym, and door with the ym – I would be forced to admit that Hebrew CAN and does change meaning based on addition of “ym”. If we found three words that clearly did this – the evidence becomes quite convincing.*

This looks interesting… I’m in!

BUT - just a brief thing on the “kef/kaf” thing… Basically, (if I understand you right) you’re saying that back at the time of Christ (for example), one could not necessarily tell the difference - pronunciation-wise - between kef and kaf, because “points” weren’t used?

(just wanting some clarification on this)…

So, otherwise, we’re looking for some other Hebrew word (or words) that can change in meanging if they are used in singular vs plural?
 
Hey, Andrew — More stuff for you…

About this kaf/kef thing:

As you know, without the niqqud, “kef” and “kaf” would both be spelled כפ.

BUT - the word in jeremiah and job uses a masculine ending…

The word “kaf” (meaning spoon, palm of the hand, hollow, etc) is feminine, and would require a different ending…

That’s how we know that “kefim” is indeed “kefim” (even without the use of niqqud) - it’s masculine, not feminine, and therefore is the word that is used to mean mountains, crags, etc.

This is just a bit of additional info… Just thought this might be helpful…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top