Pew: 77% of Catholics who are Democrats say abortion should be legal

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It is one of the reasons, there was a number of reasons for me to find the door from Catholicism and be where I have for now entering my fourth decade.
 
I am well aware of that, so explain to me folks such as Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the US House of Representatives and her party’s nominee for the Presidency of the country, Joe Biden, both of whom are open supporters of abortion ---- why have they not be excommunicated just for that?
 
CourtingTex said:
I am well aware of that, so explain to me folks such as Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the US House of Representatives and her party’s nominee for the Presidency of the country, Joe Biden, both of whom are open supporters of abortion
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That people have little faith is not a testimony of the truth, it is a testimony of those people.
CourtingTex said:
why have they not be excommunicated just for that?
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Good question.
If the church suddenly decided to, would you be back in the Catholic Church?
 
mercyalways said:
Can 77% of Catholic Democrats really support legal abortion? Is this the same group of Catholics research recently found who don’t believe that the Eucharist is truly the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Our Lord?

In other words, are these nominal Catholics who attend Mass once a year and have no real knowledge of the faith? And what, what, what can we do to catechize them?
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I’m reminded of the fact that many people walked away from Jesus. And it wasn’t because he was a bad catechist.

That’s my only real comment to make here. Not to discourage catechesis (let’s definitely speak the truth clearly and gently, to those who seem not to know or accept it) – but to remember that Jesus set the example for us, and spoke to us directly about, the fact that many who we try to speak to will not accept the true things said.

There’s a point at which we have to do what Jesus did (and counselled) and let them walk away, or shake the dust off our sandals and walk to the next potential listener ourselves – rather than get sucked into the trap of endless attempts to ‘compromise’ and cajole people towards something their will is fundamentally set against, for whatever reason.

As Mother Theresa (is said to have) said, God doesn’t call us to be successful: just faithful.

Also my own $0.02 about what would help catechize: I think it’d help if we actually started following Jesus’ instructions. E.g. Matthew 18:15-17
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
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Direct quotes from the mouth of God, there. As laypeople we can offer private fraternal correction (e.g. if someone is committing the sin of scandal or cooperation in child-murder by pushing forward the cause of abortion), and if the person won’t privately listen to one or three of us, we can tell it to the church. At that point the responsibility is on the representatives of the church. And if we don’t see excommunications (or whatever equivalent public pronouncement of the separation of that person from the life of the Church, making it clear that that person is “As a Gentile and a tax collector” (again, those are the words of God there, Jesus Christ himself), and that person is not as a Catholic to us anymore) at that point, then that sin is directly on the heads of those church leaders.

At the moment, one strong reason for bad catechesis (e.g. on abortion) seems to be appallingly bad leadership that leaves many laypeople delusionally uninformed about the evil they’re participating in and the consequence that should accompany it (again, by the command of God Himself: Jesus Christ) which is removal from Church life until they repent. Here’s hoping that one day changes.
 
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No, return to Catholicism ---- again my reasons are a number that lead to me leaving.
 
CourtingTex said:
No, return to Catholicism ---- again my reasons are a number that lead to me leaving.
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Ok.

Of course, I do not understand the reason cited.
Letting the sin of another chase you out of the church is a bit like leaving a hospital because there are sick people there.
 
A lot of Catholics think that, while abortion is profoundly immoral, it should still be legal, because the government should not force people to do something with their bodies. I think the reasoning is wrong: nothing is forced; it’s a prohibition of an act that terminates a natural process.
 
Abortion is wrong, period. The choice of these politicans are sad ----- anyone who stands for abortion is wrong, period. Again a number reasons lead me to leave Catholicism.
 
Almost every Catholic and person I know thinks abortion is bad and want to reduce them as much as possible, but most, as in this poll, say it should continue to be legal.
 
CourtingTex said:
Again a number reasons lead me to leave Catholicism.
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Not sure why you make this statement in this context. There is no evident connection between that statement and your stated position on abortion, and you seem disinclined to expose a connection.
 
My own personal opinion is that many that I run into (including my own family) prize party affiliation above the logic and philosophy behind the Pro life teachings of the Church. It also doesn’t help that you have the Church not being precisely clear on it; with different prelates diluting things down.

This honestly goes for both sides. On one side of my family they hand wave away Trump’s more bombastic statements and disturbing comments. They ignore the failings he has had as a President.

On the other side we have people that have hand waved away abortion for years saying ‘Freedom of conscience! Seamless garment!’ while ignoring the idea of a properly formed conscience and the idea that you can allow intrinsic evil only in response to a proportionate evil on the other side; and somehow decide that taxes or immigration is proportional to just under a million innocents killed each year.

Both sides wave the flag of their parties proudly, proclaim their own allegience to ‘science’ and ‘facts’, and in the areas where the Church disagrees with them just kind of blow it off or come up with reasons why the Church really does agree with them. Both sides despise the other party’s more than they love their own Church’s philosophy.

How do we Catechize them? With love and logic.

It’s not okay to call other countries ****holes and drive around exposing your secret service people to COVID. It’s fine to have a view that you want to limit immigration; but we should be decent and kind about it.

It’s not okay to hand wave away 860K deaths/year to abortion. It’s not okay to support a party that is actively diminishing religious freedom. It’s not okay to have a party that loves to divide and mix up people through intersectionality.

Maybe, just maybe, if we all voted for a third party for a year, the two parties would sit up and take notice instead of rushing towards the fringes.
 
Pols such as Pew di are essentially useless, as they do not distinguish between CINO’s, once-in-awhile Catholics, and those who are actively living their faith.

Given that somewhere between 20 and 23% of Catholics attend Mass weekly, the other 77% is hardly the group I would interview as to their stance on abortion - including Joe Biden, who has been told by at least two bishops to not present himself for Communion. Joe is clearly pro abortion, so he is part of that 77% approving it.

The question might be more relevant if it asked first how frequently the interviewee attends Mass (not that some wouldn’t lie about that - but at lest it would be a start).
 
otjm said:
Pols such as Pew di are essentially useless, as they do not distinguish between CINO’s, once-in-awhile Catholics, and those who are actively living their faith.
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They are then exceptionally useful in determining the numbers of actual Catholics. Perhaps we should investigate the numbers of Catholics who also use contraception and see how many we have left.
 
Freddy said:
They are then exceptionally useful in determining the numbers of actual Catholics.
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I guess so, but only in the sense that there are a lot of Catholics, probably most, who live most of their life in objective mortal sin, having abandoned Mass attendance. Are they Catholic? Yes. Do they follow any of the Church’s teachings? No.

I would be the response here would be night and day if the survey was taken at Mass, and even more so if it was taken at a daily Mass.
 
pnewton said:
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Freddy:
They are then exceptionally useful in determining the numbers of actual Catholics.
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I guess so, but only in the sense that there are a lot of Catholics, probably most, who live most of their life in objective mortal sin, having abandoned Mass attendance. Are they Catholic? Yes. Do they follow any of the Church’s teachings? No.

I would be the response here would be night and day if the survey was taken at Mass, and even more so if it was taken at a daily Mass.
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It does bear on a point I make on ocassion that I am constantly being brought to task over my perceived failings by people who are, as a group, a very long way away indeed from being good examples.

Yes, I know it’s the church’s teaching that count, not the imperfect individuals. But imagine a neighbour telling you that he’s a member of the local neighbourhood committe and I need to smarten my yard up - committee rules don’t you know. And you look over to his place and it’s a mess. There’s old furniture, a rusty car, piles of tyres. What do you tell him? You’ll get onto it right away? Or tell him to get his butt out of your yard - which admittedly needs some work but is looking a lot better than his anyway.
 
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Freddy said:
Yes, I know it’s the church’s teaching that count, not the imperfect individuals. But imagine a neighbour telling you that he’s a member of the local neighbourhood committe and I need to smarten my yard up - committee rules don’t you know. And you look over to his place and it’s a mess. There’s old furniture, a rusty car, piles of tyres. What do you tell him? You’ll get onto it right away? Or tell him to get his butt out of your yard - which admittedly needs some work but is looking a lot better than his anyway.
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Im sure you don’t think the Catholics here advocating against abortion are actually having abortions? Which would be like the neighbour advocating for a tidy yard actually having a messy one. I don’t think you should see any hypocrisy in one Catholic’s stance simply on the grounds that others in the same club behave differently. A club most joined as a baby and need do nothing to retain apparent membership.
 
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