Pew: 77% of Catholics who are Democrats say abortion should be legal

[lwest]

Sorry. I thought you were just asking a question. But, now you have an answer. Life is good.

 

[graciew]

It is ok.No problem.
I was asking myself and sharing it at the same time.

 

[Cathoholic]

FiveLinden . . .

the creation of a world in which that huge majority of living creatures die in pain and distress.

OK.

I won’t derail the topic, but I will give you broad principles.

What you are asking about is “The problem of evil”.

That is a truth that is “above reason”.
We have talked about such truths before.

The answer is God allows this, so a greater good can come out of it.

HOW a greater good comes out of evil we cannot fully understand. (And by the way, we mere humans cannot bring a greater good out of evil. But God CAN and DOES.)

But since the whole crux of Atheism (which is a belief with no rational basis by the way) is the rejection of any truth that is ABOVE reason. Atheism is rooted in pride.

So sooner or later, the atheists all trot out an issue that is ABOVE (not contrary to) reason, and run around drawing the same conclusion.

The problem is, it is not provable by reason that all truths are within the confines of human reason.

It is a self-contradiction.

We can and should explore truths that are above reason. And we can prove and find out SOME parts of some answers regarding such issues.

But a truth that is ABOVE reason can never be reduced down to mere human reasoning.

Pride says . . . “Nothing and nobody can go beyond MY DEEP WISDOM” or at least beyond HUMAN wisdom. This is pride. Atheism is rooted in pride.

the creation of a world in which that huge majority of living creatures die in pain and distress.

Christians trust and KNOW God will bring a greater good out of this.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

The causes…do you mean our soul destroying culture? The pornography that research shows is typically first viewed by 11 year olds? The culture that means drunken hook ups are more common in college than the long-ago formal dates? The culture that has caused a collapse of birth rates, not to mention marriages?

Not at all. Those are not the causes. The causes are socio-economic: some mothers need free pre-natal care, free health care until the child is 18, monthly subsidies until the child is 18, post-maternity leave, financial help with pre-school, a guarantee that they can return to a job they left to have a baby, etc. All other developed countries have these things. Somehow America, which in one breath people say “is the richest country in the world” can’t afford what every other country can. Does that make any sense?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

You are using economic rationale to justify abortion

You must be reading a different post. That’s certainly NOT what I wrote. I’m simply repeating what women who have had abortions have said when asked why they had an abortion. It’s not “justifying” it in any way, shape, or form. It’s providing a reason. If you don’t know why women have abortions, you can’t prevent abortions. Simple.

 

[Rockoh22]

Not at all. Those are not the causes. The causes are socio-economic: some mothers need free pre-natal care, free health care until the child is 18, monthly subsidies until the child is 18, post-maternity leave, financial help with pre-school, a guarantee that they can return to a job they left to have a baby, etc. All other developed countries have these things. Somehow America, which in one breath people say “is the richest country in the world” can’t afford what every other country can. Does that make any sense?

My question is then. Are there no more abortions in those countries? Mind you , I do not know which countries do all that. But that is my ignorance.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

What are they saying?

They are saying that an early term abortion is like removing a tumor or an appendix. Probably more emotional involvement than that, but most women having abortions in the first trimester (which is a great majority of abortions) don’t think that a zygote or fetus is a “baby” or a “human being.” You probably do, but once again, that’s irrelevant to the thoughts of women having abortions.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

The economic rationale requires that if people are taken care of economically and other things then they would not choose abortion. You know so well that it can never be possible nor sustainable in any society at any point in history. The only place possible for that kind of wishful thinking is in Utopia.

Actually you might think of it as Utopia, but I would call it Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, France, the UK, Spain, Italy…and a host of other countries.

My question is then. Are there no more abortions in those countries? Mind you , I do not know which countries do all that. But that is my ignorance.

I believe so. I’ll let you look it up–what you’re looking for is abortions per 1,000 women between 15-45.

Another phenomenon is that the number of abortions in the US has fallen drastically. Various people and groups have speculated why, but there doesn’t seem to be a definitive answer. It seems to me that this is something that deserves some research.

 

[Randolph]

Actually you might think of it as Utopia, but I would call it Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, France, the UK, Spain, Italy…and a host of other countries.

If they have achieved the economic security threshold that is acceptable to you, then why are abortions still being performed there? Why are there crimes such such murders, rapes, etc… there?

 

[Rockoh22]

I believe so. I’ll let you look it up

I did. No, they have on or about the same abortion rate as the USA. Greenland surprised me, they have a very high abortion rate.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

If they have achieved the economic security threshold that is acceptable to you, then why are abortions still being performed there? Why are there crimes such such murders, rapes, etc… there?

It doesn’t sound like you have looked at the polls giving the reasons. Take two minutes and look it up. And I’m not sure what the crime rate has to do with abortion…

 

[adamhovey1988]

I am not a member of a political party. I support overturning Roe V. Wade, and a total ban on abortion in the US if at all possible.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I did. No, they have on or about the same abortion rate as the USA. Greenland surprised me, they have a very high abortion rate.

I don’t know what you looked at. These are 2020 statistics:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/abortion-rates-by-country

It measures abortions per 1,000 women of child-bearing age (usually 15-45). The US comes in at 20.8, and there are a number of countries with a higher rate–all E. European or Communist (Cuba, China).

Canada, for example, is 15.2–27% lower than the US. A lot of W. European countries have a rate of less than 10 (i.e. less than half the US rate): Spain, Germany, Belgium, Switzerland, Croatia, Greece, Austria, Portugal. Portugal has a 0.2 rate. Austria 1.3.

The same site also mentions the countries where abortion is illegal in all cases : Malta, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Chile, Nicaragua, and S. Sudan. So if the pro-life faction got its way, these are the countries the US would join.

Also it’s worth noting this: “In these nations where abortion is illegal, you would think that abortion rates would be very low, but in fact, the very opposite may be true. Studies show that abortion rates may actually be much higher in nations where abortion is illegal. There are also higher risks and complications, including death of the mother, as a result of these illegal abortions.”

As I said earlier, making abortion illegal is not the answer.

What is always fascinating to me is that the US consistently acts as if other countries don’t exist. If I were the head of some pro-life group, I think I’d take a field trip to Germany or Switzerland which both have an abortion rate ⅓ that of the US. And I’d want to find out why. But I guess that’s just me.

 

[Rau]

Specifically, what social changes are you suggesting?

Broadly they must be policies that offer support to pregnant women who need it, measures so that no woman feels left alone, in desperate poverty, at risk of being unable to support herself and her child.

Of course this can only be part of the solution as there are some women for whom these are not the relevant factors when considering abortion.

 

[DivineMercy01]

Amen. No more of this “do whatever feels good.”

 

[pnewton]

No straw man here either.

So you have actually seen someone that we can not fight abortion unless we first have a Utopia? That I would be most interesting in reading.

 

[pnewton]

I am not a member of a political party. I support overturning Roe V. Wade, and a total ban on abortion in the US if at all possible.

Same here. I think you will find this survey is not representative of the people here.

 

[Randolph]

It doesn’t sound like you have looked at the polls giving the reasons. Take two minutes and look it up. And I’m not sure what the crime rate has to do with abortion…

Your point in an earlier post was that the underline problem for women to have abortion was economic. Then, if those European countries you named were doing well economically for themselves and their people, why abortions are being performed in great numbers there annually? Same for murders and rapes?

 

[Rau]

They are saying that an early term abortion is like removing a tumor or an appendix. Probably more emotional involvement than that, but most women having abortions in the first trimester (which is a great majority of abortions) don’t think that a zygote or fetus is a “baby” or a “human being.”

It’s hard to think our unborn off-spring is other than human. More odd that if you wait a little longer, what’s intellectually obvious becomes visibly obvious. You have to conclude that people saying this might be telling themselves that to sidestep feeling the weightiness of what they’re about to do.

What do they say a little later in pregnancy?

I think these days many people have talked themselves into believing that they actually are justified in killing their offspring because “me and my needs and my ‘rights’ come first”.

 

[Randolph]

Broadly they must be policies that offer support to pregnant women who need it, measures so that no woman feels left alone, in desperate poverty, at risk of being unable to support herself and her child.

Of course this can only be part of the solution as there are some women for whom these are not the relevant factors when considering abortion.

I agree. Just so you know. I support a local Womens Center that helps women with these needs and even more. I know very well what you are saying.