Philly Abortion Doctor Gosnell May Face Death

[Rich_Olszewski]

If you truly want to change my mind, please provide Church teaching that states the death penalty is just.

First, I’m not trying to change your mind. You can believe whatever you like. Secondly, in the face of all that Ender and others have posted, you insist on seeing a definitive statement that the death penalty is just. I would have hoped that logic would enter into this somewhere. Given the approval by the Church of the death penalty under narrow circumstances, you are saying that the Church is, nevertheless approving injustice. Your call.

I didn’t say that acceptance of the death penalty is not just.

Then what’s your problem, if you agree that the penalty is not unjust??

Ah, I see. It’s OK for you to post your personal opinion but it’s not OK for me? OK.

Did I say that you couldn’t post your personal opinion? Don’t think so.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

We do not have the right to kill people!!

I trust that you are a pacifist, then. I can’t agree on your absolutist statement, given that I am a veteran of Vietnam, and though I even then opposed American participation in that melee, I did know that there are times when killing people is right and just. Look up the Church’s position on Just War, then tell me about the right to kill people.

 

[LittleSoldier]

First, I’m not trying to change your mind. You can believe whatever you like. Secondly, in the face of all that Ender and others have posted, you insist on seeing a definitive statement that the death penalty is just. I would have hoped that logic would enter into this somewhere. Given the approval by the Church of the death penalty under narrow circumstances, you are saying that the Church is, nevertheless approving injustice. Your call.

I would hope that logic would enter into this somewhere. Are you saying the Church does not have dogma or doctrine regarding something as important as the death penalty?

Then what’s your problem, if you agree that the penalty is not unjust??

Please read my response again.

Did I say that you couldn’t post your personal opinion? Don’t think so.

You have implied so by your posts.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I trust that you are a pacifist, then. I can’t agree on your absolutist statement, given that I am a veteran of Vietnam, and though I even then opposed American participation in that melee, I did know that there are times when killing people is right and just. Look up the Church’s position on Just War, then tell me about the right to kill people.

Yes, I am a pacifist. But this thread is about the death penalty (or it has progressed to that discussion). If you wish to discuss war or self defense, please feel free to start another thread. I’m not going off-topic.

 

[LittleSoldier]

The first part of this is no more than your personal opinion. Beyond that, no one denies that even a murderer is a child of God or that he or she should not be treated with dignity.

It’s more than my personal opinion. It is Church teaching.

And I believe that earlier in this thread a poster stated that Gosnell should be drawn and quartered. Certainly that poster denies that he should be treated with dignity.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Yes, I am a pacifist. But this thread is about the death penalty (or it has progressed to that discussion). If you wish to discuss war or self defense, please feel free to start another thread. I’m not going off-topic.

Well, that explains it. You are a pacifist. I’m familiar with pacifism from some work I once did with the Catholic Worker Movement. So, nothing more needs be said.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Well, that explains it. You are a pacifist. I’m familiar with pacifism from some work I once did with the Catholic Worker Movement. So, nothing more needs be said.

“Whatever you do to one of these, the least of mine, you do to Me.”

 

[Ender]

Does the Church teach that “nothing trumps justice?”

My goodness, justice is a cardinal virtue. Do I now have to defend the idea that it cannot be summarily dismissed because some other value overrides it? Regarding justice, however:
*
If we speak of legal justice, it is evident that it stands foremost among all the moral virtues, for as much as the common good transcends the individual good of one person.* (Aquinas, ST I/II, 58,12)

“The test of whether the death penalty can be used is whether society has alternative ways to protect itself, not how terrible the crime was.” (USCCB)

This is truly horrible. This is not just wrong but is spectacularly, breathtakingly misguided. The severity of the punishment not only may be but must be commensurate with the severity of the crime (CCC 2266). It is precisely “how terrible the crime was” that determines the extent of the punishment that may be justly applied. We cannot execute someone to protect society unless he has committed a crime for which execution is a just punishment. Isn’t it obvious that we may not execute a person if he has not done something to deserve it even if our motivation is to protect the public?

Capital punishment is not just. Protecting a vulnerable public is.
It may not be intrinsically evil. It may also not be just.

Words are losing their meanings for you. If something is unjust it is evil. If capital punishment is unjust it is evil. If it is evil it may never be used for any reason including to protect the public. “One may not do evil so that good may result from it.” (CCC 1756)

Ender

 

[LittleSoldier]

I answered this before: because this is not what the Church teaches. She does now, always has, and always will, however, teach this:

Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image. (Gen 9:6)

And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[Matthew 25:40, Douay-Rheims]

The Church teaches that the State does have this right.

IF there is no other way to keep the public safe!! I have stated this over and over and over!!

*He who takes vengeance on the wicked in keeping with his rank and position does not usurp what belongs to God but makes use of the power granted him by God. *For it is written (Romans 13:4) of the earthly prince that “he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” (Aquinas, ST, II/II 108,1 ad 1)
“The fate of the wicked being open to conversion so long as they live does not preclude their being open also to the **just **punishment of death" (Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles, Bk III, ch 147)
But not unconditionally (or hell wouldn’t exist) -

For severity is inflexible in the infliction of punishment when right reason requires it; while clemency mitigates punishment also according to right reason, when and where this is requisite. (Aquinas, ST, II/II 157,2 ad 1)

Ender

And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

The Word of God certainly trumps the word of Aquinas. And what is really sad is that we did do it to Jesus. He was executed via capital punishment.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Then please provide a quote that states so!! I mean dogma or doctrine. Not arguments for and against, not bits of quotes taken out of context. And if you do find such a quote, I will check it out, study it, and if it really states that the Church infallibly teaches that the death penalty is just and is appropriate (without the parameters that I have already posted), then I will leave the Church for once and for all, because I will have no choice. I can’t believe that God would agree with that mere mortal human beings who have the right to kill one of His precious creations.

Has to be taught infallibly, eh? Ex Cathedra? You and I both know that the Church’s position was not set forth Ex Cathedra.

By the way, if that one thing is enough to motivate you to leave the Church, and none of the rest that it teaches is any counterbalance, then there’s nothing more to be said to you. Have a nice future and an pleasant afterlife.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Has to be taught infallibly, eh? Ex Cathedra? You and I both know that the Church’s position was not set forth Ex Cathedra.

I didn’t state ex cathedra. If I thought you were an expert I would now believe there is no dogma or doctrine. But I don’t believe you are an expert so I think there is a possibility that dogma or doctrine exists.

I’m not referring to ex cathedra. I am aware that only one statement has been made ex cathedra and one more stated closely enough (in a temporal sense) to be ex cathedra that it is sometimes claimed that it was stated ex cathedra. But didn’t you say the Church has always taught what you claim she has taught re capital punishment? Surely you know that ex cathedra statements were not used during most of the Church’s history. There is much more to infallibility than *ex cathedra *statements and I don’t pretend to understand it.

By the way, if that one thing is enough to motivate you to leave the Church, and none of the rest that it teaches is any counterbalance, then there’s nothing more to be said to you. Have a nice future and an pleasant afterlife.

As I stated, I would study it. And by study I mean I would find out everything I could about it both by reading and by talking to any expert I could find.

This is important to me because capital punishment (without the parameters I have already posted) is a violation of Universal Law - the Law that states that all human beings are precious and deserve the right of life. It’s true in the case of abortion, in the case of euthanasia, and in the case of capital punishment.

So, no - this one thing would not be enough to motivate me to leave the Church. But if I saw that the Church does not follow her own law I would have to find out why. The right to life involves so much more than the end of abortion. The right to life is at the basis of my belief in the Truth that the Church teaches. I truly believe the Church teaches us how to practice Universal Law.

I’m not asking for an ex cathedra statement. I’m asking for dogma or doctrine. Surely the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary into heaven don’t comprise all Church dogma and doctrine!!

 

[Ender]

Then please provide a quote that states so!! I mean dogma or doctrine. Not arguments for and against, not bits of quotes taken out of context. And if you do find such a quote, I will check it out, study it, and if it really states that the Church infallibly teaches that the death penalty is just and is appropriate (without the parameters that I have already posted), then I will leave the Church for once and for all, because I will have no choice. I can’t believe that God would agree with that mere mortal human beings who have the right to kill one of His precious creations.

If I were able to provide such a quote I would not do it, knowing what it would cause you to do. Nor in good conscience can I continue the debate with you. I hoped that my arguments would convince people that they misunderstood Church teaching on the nature of punishment (justice, retribution, expiation, mercy, …) and that this might cause them to reconsider their opposition to capital punishment. It never occurred to me that someone might be so wedded to his own position that, on learning what the Church taught, he might reject the Church herself.

I won’t carry this conversation into that territory.

Ender

 

[LittleSoldier]

If I were able to provide such a quote I would not do it, knowing what it would cause you to do. Nor in good conscience can I continue the debate with you. I hoped that my arguments would convince people that they misunderstood Church teaching on the nature of punishment (justice, retribution, expiation, mercy, …) and that this might cause them to reconsider their opposition to capital punishment. It never occurred to me that someone might be so wedded to his own position that, on learning what the Church taught, he might reject the Church herself.

I won’t carry this conversation into that territory.

Ender

You’re not an expert, as far as I know. Nothing you state would cause me to leave the Church. Nothing stated in this forum would cause me to leave the Church.

But if a real expert proved to me that such a statement exists, then I would have to examine my conscience and my reasons for believing that the Catholic Church is the true Church. I would have to pray and pray and pray. This is a procedure that would take many years. It’s not like I’d say “Well, Ender said this, so I’m out of the Church!” and I walk away and never return. My faith may be weak, but it’s not that weak.

Perhaps it is wise to stop now. I hope that in the future sometime we can discuss this again. And I am reading what you provided me and I do appreciate your taking the time and effort to do so.

 

[LittleSoldier]

My goodness, justice is a cardinal virtue. Do I now have to defend the idea that it cannot be summarily dismissed because some other value overrides it? Regarding justice, however:
*
If we speak of legal justice, it is evident that it stands foremost among all the moral virtues, for as much as the common good transcends the individual good of one person.* (Aquinas, ST I/II, 58,12)
This is truly horrible. This is not just wrong but is spectacularly, breathtakingly misguided. The severity of the punishment not only may be but must be commensurate with the severity of the crime (CCC 2266). It is precisely “how terrible the crime was” that determines the extent of the punishment that may be justly applied. We cannot execute someone to protect society unless he has committed a crime for which execution is a just punishment. Isn’t it obvious that we may not execute a person if he has not done something to deserve it even if our motivation is to protect the public?
Words are losing their meanings for you. If something is unjust it is evil. If capital punishment is unjust it is evil. If it is evil it may never be used for any reason including to protect the public. “One may not do evil so that good may result from it.” (CCC 1756)

Ender

It’s true that words have pretty much lost their meaning for me and I mean that seriously because I have some brain damage which has led to an inability to (sometimes) process language.

I am no longer able to keep up with a deluge of posts. I haven’t even had time to read the resources you posted for me (thank you for that). It takes me longer than it used to.

I don’t know if I should post a disclaimer at the beginning of each post, or once in a thread, or in my signature. I don’t know how to handle this problem. But surely I’m not the only person involved in this thread (and I’m including lurkers) who has a problem with processing language.

Please, give me some time. Let me think about it. Let it sink in a little.

Did you notice the quote is from the USCCB? This is what they say. How can one not be confused when being given conflicting positions? The USCCB has a lot of authority. I believe they are considered part of the Magisterium.

This is way too complicated to discuss in a thread on a forum.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

It’s true that words have pretty much lost their meaning for me and I mean that seriously because I have some brain damage which has led to an inability to (sometimes) process language.

I am no longer able to keep up with a deluge of posts. I haven’t even had time to read the resources you posted for me (thank you for that). It takes me longer than it used to.

I don’t know if I should post a disclaimer at the beginning of each post, or once in a thread, or in my signature. I don’t know how to handle this problem. But surely I’m not the only person involved in this thread (and I’m including lurkers) who has a problem with processing language.QUOTE

It may gratify you to know that I have a bit of a similar problem, LS. I’ve never had a formal diagnosis of brain damage, but I took a really bad fall directly on my head when I was twelve, and neither I nor my parents understood the seriousness of it. I subsequently went off to take a nap to recover, since I felt pretty beat up afterwards–just the thing you’re NOT supposed to do.

Took another bad spill when I was in high school, playing tackle football while the PE coach was not on the field–no padding, helmets or anything. I got knocked my full height to the ground by a guy that outweighed me by about forty pounds, and hit my head really good again.

It’s created difficulty in school and work both for me, as well as in personal relationships. I’ve always been an avid internet debater, partly on the theory that the mental activity may foster neural reconstruction, or at least keep things from getting any worse.

 

[LittleSoldier]

It may gratify you to know that I have a bit of a similar problem, LS. I’ve never had a formal diagnosis of brain damage, but I took a really bad fall directly on my head when I was twelve, and neither I nor my parents understood the seriousness of it. I subsequently went off to take a nap to recover, since I felt pretty beat up afterwards–just the thing you’re NOT supposed to do.

Took another bad spill when I was in high school, playing tackle football while the PE coach was not on the field–no padding, helmets or anything. I got knocked my full height to the ground by a guy that outweighed me by about forty pounds, and hit my head really good again.

It’s created difficulty in school and work both for me, as well as in personal relationships. I’ve always been an avid internet debater, partly on the theory that the mental activity may foster neural reconstruction, or at least keep things from getting any worse.

I’m sorry you have the same problem I have and at the same time I have to admit that I’m happy that someone finally understands. I don’t think anyone can understand unless they’ve been in that situation.

Mine is due to prescribed opiates taken over a long period of time (about 16 years now). I’ve been told it’s reversible but I haven’t seen any signs of it reversing even though I’ve cut the amount of opiates dramatically (from 16 a day to 1.5 a day).

I think the hardest part is that I usually don’t know when I’m having problems.

I agree that using a mental exercise such as debating can be helpful. I know we don’t use a large part of our brains so maybe there is some extra we can both work with. I also subscribe to the theory of “use it or lose it.”

There’s an episode, I believe it’s in Amazing Stories, in which the protagonist suddenly realizes that he not only doesn’t understand what anyone is saying, nobody understands what he is saying. At the end of the episode he’s holding a children’s book with a picture of a ball (I think) and the caption is something like “apple.” He has to start from the beginning.

At least we’re not that bad off!

Thank you for sharing your story with me. I’ve been feeling kind of alone as I have never met anyone with this problem before.

 

[JCro]

Render unto cesar …Act upon the beatitudes.

This man is sick, he is our brother, we should pray for him. If your brother becomes sick from drug use is he a bad man? Is he not what all men have been, just on an. everyday level? The
Worry not about the length of life, the importance is caring for the troubled. No one comes to the rescue of the faithul, and for good reason. Not the angels nor the Son know the day of the end…so why should any man who walks about this earth call themselves just enough to judge the end of another?
Our life is from love and to evil we shall overcome with this Love we are given from the Father and the Son, it Will conquer all because it is the Will of the Father.
Again, as any addict or troubled or sick person has a well day, their faith alone can brin g them another. If that man has one good day and then another and yet another because of the faith of many, what shall his future bring? Do you doubt the power of Christ? Pray for him and have your faith in your heart.Love has conquered death, we need not worry or judgement but thanksgiving for the Love we take and receive with no energy given for it.
Our Mother Loves Her Children. Remember this everyone. You are loved and only with great sacrifice will you be rewarded your triumphs. Believe that you are challanged, you are not or ever alone, you are tempted and you have your choice. It is in your frustration that comes your peace. If you feel angst, frustration, greed or improper need to judge, feel rewarded already for you have been chosen and loved, you always have a choice, the first is to agree with your mind which is tempting you, for this choice you feel an tingle or release from your head down into your shoulders then your stomach, for the second choice, the one you cannot understand, the one you cannot predict what it will bring about, the one you go on faith for , you will feel this from your heat and then spread out unto your head and your mind and your shoulders and all of your body. This may not be what you want but it is what IS and when you choose what is not you do not feel clean or free because you are red with slavery.
Trust me, you can learn your mind from your heart, that any deaf man can hear all he must do is ask to just have but of one breath of the Lord’s Presence. And the Lord is Present so with your hearts ask Him to Present Himself to you and He Will if you do just that.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, World without end. Amen.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Glory be to the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be. Forever and ever!!!

Amen!!

 

[LittleSoldier]

I answered this before: because this is not what the Church teaches. She does now, always has, and always will, however, teach this:

Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image. (Gen 9:6)
The Church teaches that the State does have this right.

***If there is no other way to keep the public safe!! I don’t know why I have to keep posting this over and over.

---

Also, if you are basing the State’s supposed right to use capital punishment on this quote, I submit that not once in the quote does it state that it is man who has the right to shed the blood of another man. It is God who should make that decision, not man, and it is God who has the right to shed the blood of a man who has shed the blood of another man. And when capital punishment is used, man is shedding the blood of another man. Divine justice has its place. It’s up to God; not to us.

*He who takes vengeance on the wicked in keeping with his rank and position does not usurp what belongs to God but makes use of the power granted him by God. *For it is written (Romans 13:4) of the earthly prince that “he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” (Aquinas, ST, II/II 108,1 ad 1)

And who is the “earthly prince?” It’s Jesus!! I can’t say that I am the earthly prince and neither can you; not in all honesty. And, once again, it is acceptable to use capital punishment if there is no other way to keep the public safe.

“The fate of the wicked being open to conversion so long as they live does not preclude their being open also to the **just **punishment of death" (Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles, Bk III, ch 147)
But not unconditionally (or hell wouldn’t exist) -

For severity is inflexible in the infliction of punishment when right reason requires it; while clemency mitigates punishment also according to right reason, when and where this is requisite. (Aquinas, ST, II/II 157,2 ad 1)

Ender

Again, the Word of God trumps that of Aquinas, who was a fallible human being who sinned.

As for Scripture, both of us can provide quotes all day long that “support” capital punishment but they are most likely being taken out of context.

So let me provide another passage that I believe is taken in context:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

"He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

"Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

"Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’

"And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

“He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

[Matthew 25: 31-46, NAB]

It’s kind of ironic that Jesus uses “caring for those in prison” in this Scripture passage. Did He mean that killing one in prison is “caring for him?”

I realize that you are no longer involved in this thread. I’m posting this for whoever is interested.

 

[LittleSoldier]

If I were able to provide such a quote I would not do it, knowing what it would cause you to do. Nor in good conscience can I continue the debate with you. I hoped that my arguments would convince people that they misunderstood Church teaching on the nature of punishment (justice, retribution, expiation, mercy, …) and that this might cause them to reconsider their opposition to capital punishment. It never occurred to me that someone might be so wedded to his own position that, on learning what the Church taught, he might reject the Church herself.

I won’t carry this conversation into that territory.

Ender

Methinks you have a much higher opinion of your power than I do. You don’t have the power to make me leave the Church, and even if you provided a quote (which I don’t for one second believe exists) I wouldn’t drop my faith in the Truth of the Church. It’s kind of strange how you seem to latch onto one part of my statement and ignore the rest: “I will check it out, study it…” Why an anonymous poster believes he has the power to make me leave the Church is mind boggling.

Pride is a sin. I believe it’s one of the seven deadly sins.

It never occurred to me that someone might be so wedded to his own position that he actually argues against part of the Magisterium. I’m absolutely amazed that anyone would do this!! The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church, not you. I’m absolutely amazed that anyone would argue against the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It’s like ripping the page on capital punishment right out of the CCC. And if you can do that with what the CCC states about capital punishment there is nothing that stops one from ripping out the pages on abortion, or euthanasia or any other topic the CCC covers.

**I won’t rip one page out of the CCC. I will *always * bow to the authority of the Magisterium. **

And I’m done with this thread.