Phoenix nun that OKed abortion no longer excommunicated, says hospital; diocese mum

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It is a distinct possibility.

The excommunication was latae sentientiae, in other words, she excommunicated herself.

That type of excommunication can be lifted during confession by any priest to who the bishop has delegated this authority.

In the diocese of the US, the large majority of bishops have delegated the authority to lift this excommunication to the priests.

Of course, that will happen during the course of the Confessional, so the diocese cannot make any statement one way or the other about proceddings that have happened in the context of a confession.

The person themselves are always free to discuss matters related to their own personal confession with others.
 
As if the hospital is an authority on excommunications!
Obviously they are not. However, since Sr. Margaret McBride had been an executive level employee of the hospital before the controversy which enveloped them both, it does seem likely that persons at the hospital (which was founded by her religious order) are in occasional contact with her. The hospital’s statement is not authoritative, but it may be the only public statement on the matter. My guess is that Sr. Margaret, her order, and the bishop of the diocese where she is living are not likely to talk publicly about the matter to avoid further controversy.

Since she is no longer in the Diocese of Phoenix, the matter of her excommunication is no longer in Bishop Olmstead’s purview so it makes sense for the diocese to withhold comment.

BTW, the news about the hospital statement was reported by Catholic News Service (not CNS News as LifeSite claimed.) Here is a link to the article:
catholicnews.com/data/briefs/cns/20111209.htm#head13
 
It seems to have been a difficult case. According to a news report I read the mother had a virtually 100% chance of dying if the pregnancy went ahead.

If she’s “alright” with the Bishop then we who are not privy to her private interactions/confession with the diocese don’t really have a lot to say.

It’s very sad. A mom is alive. Her child is dead. Let’s pray for them all.
 
It seems to have been a difficult case. According to a news report I read the mother had a virtually 100% chance of dying if the pregnancy went ahead.
The news reports were, by and large, grotesque fabrications. Furthermore it doesn’t matter if the mother has a 100% chance of dying. It is better to do anything else in one’s power and accept death if it comes than to deliberately kill one patient as the means to treating another patient’s condition.
If she’s “alright” with the Bishop then we who are not privy to her private interactions/confession with the diocese don’t really have a lot to say.
As noted this says nothing as to whether she is “alright” with the Bishop. She excommunicated herself and left the diocese. She’s no longer my bishop’s see.
It’s very sad. A mom is alive. Her child is dead. Let’s pray for them all.
It’s even worse than that. Additionally innocents were scandalized and what was once the foremost Catholic hospital in my home city remains under sanction for procuring a direct abortion. There are no masses at St. Joseph’s hospital and the Eucharist may not be kept in repose in the hospital’s chapel.

It is very sad. Let us pray for a spirit of humility and repentance to bring St. Joseph’s Hospital back into the fold of authentic Catholic ministry and bio-ethics.
  • Marty Lund
 
It’s easy to moralize from afar - now put yourself in that position. A life and death position where it is likely one or both will die in any case. And where just possibly the patient does not share your moral certainty, and where there are other children relying on their mother getting better and coming home.

Difficult?
 
It’s easy to moralize from afar - now put yourself in that position.
No. What’s easy is avoiding the question by making presumptions that someone is “moralizing from afar” and is far removed from that position.
A life and death position where it is likely one or both will die in any case.
That’s why we have moral standards that are higher than our own foolish emotionalism.
And where just possibly the patient does not share your moral certainty,
The facts of the case (that the medical staff stopped and consulted with management) made it clear that this was not a split-second life-and-death decision. If the patient wanted care outside the scope of ethical Catholic medicine Banner Good Samaritan Hospital is literally 5 minutes down the street and they have no such compunctions.
and where there are other children relying on their mother getting better and coming home.
Difficult?
Painful? Certainly. It is difficult to refuse to do evil when that decision leads to suffering for ourselves and our loved ones. It is not difficult to tell right from wrong (if one is acting as an authentic agent of Catholic teaching like St. Joseph’s Hospital was supposed to be) when the Church teaching is clearly laid out.

The difficult part is rejecting the temptation of sin and embracing the cross.

And let me emphasize that my point of contention is with the hospital, not the patient. The patient was vulnerable and certainly scandalized by the hospital’s failure to keep to authentic Catholic moral teachings.
  • Marty Lund
 
Her excommunication can be lifted via confession to either the bishop or a priest who he has delegated the proper authority to.

So if her excommunication is lifted via confession then the diocese cannot publicly comment on it.
 
No. What’s easy is avoiding the question by making presumptions that someone is “moralizing from afar” and is far removed from that position.

That’s why we have moral standards that are higher than our own foolish emotionalism.

The facts of the case (that the medical staff stopped and consulted with management) made it clear that this was not a split-second life-and-death decision. If the patient wanted care outside the scope of ethical Catholic medicine Banner Good Samaritan Hospital is literally 5 minutes down the street and they have no such compunctions.

Painful? Certainly. It is difficult to refuse to do evil when that decision leads to suffering for ourselves and our loved ones. It is not difficult to tell right from wrong (if one is acting as an authentic agent of Catholic teaching like St. Joseph’s Hospital was supposed to be) when the Church teaching is clearly laid out.

The difficult part is rejecting the temptation of sin and embracing the cross.

And let me emphasize that my point of contention is with the hospital, not the patient. The patient was vulnerable and certainly scandalized by the hospital’s failure to keep to authentic Catholic moral teachings.
  • Marty Lund
“Foolish emotionalism”:rolleyes:

If you have inside information that differs from the news reports then present that information. However it’s no use criticizing someone for responding to the information they do have from the sources available.

I’ll say it again (and this is based on my reading). It’s a difficult situation: maybe not morally difficult to you, but pastorally difficult. Mother of five, likely to die because of a medical condition exacerbated, or brought on by being pregnant. Termination of the pregnancy likely to help the mother survive. Hospital agreed to the abortion. Mother lived.

Would it have been more moral to send her elsewhere for the abortion, knowing that she would have an abortion at the other institution? Pilate did something similar but he didn’t escape the blame.

Would it have been more moral to let her die? Would it be more pastoral to let her die?

As many innocents can be “scandalized” by pastoral decisions as they can by moral decisions.

And if you want to know the difference between pastoral and moral treatment of issues, it’s the difference between what is stated in the pulpit and what is said in the confessional. In the confessional one’s time with the priest ends with the words, “I absolve you.” All I hear here is, “I condemn you.”

If the facts have been grossly misrepresented then my arguments would be different. I can only argue from the facts as presented.
 
If you have inside information that differs from the news reports then present that information. However it’s no use criticizing someone for responding to the information they do have from the sources available.
It’s not “insider information.” It’s basic due diligence instead of taking the same-old anti-Catholic bile as unbiased and thorough journalism.

Here’s what our bishop had to teach us.

Here’s a better picture of the medical particulars.
I’ll say it again (and this is based on my reading). It’s a difficult situation: maybe not morally difficult to you, but pastorally difficult. Mother of five, likely to die because of a medical condition exacerbated, or brought on by being pregnant. Termination of the pregnancy likely to help the mother survive. Hospital agreed to the abortion. Mother lived.
The mother actually had a situation of exacerbating a medical condition that’s not particularly exotic or unusual, which has been successfully treated on many occasions by hospitalization until the baby is viable and then delivering the baby. Abortion is commonly undertaken because it is less risky (not to mention much less expensive). That’s no excuse.
Would it have been more moral to send her elsewhere for the abortion, knowing that she would have an abortion at the other institution? Pilate did something similar but he didn’t escape the blame.
No Catholic hospital has the right (morally or legally) to restrain a patient from seeking services from another hospital, nor do they have the right to withhold that information from a patient.
Would it have been more moral to let her die? Would it be more pastoral to let her die?
It would’ve been moral to treat both patients. If they had both died it would’ve been unfortunate. Unfortunate, sad, and even painful are not the same thing as immoral. Our moral obligation is to refrain from doing evil, not to avoid suffering.

It was completely and unequivocally EVIL to perform that abortion.
In the confessional one’s time with the priest ends with the words, “I absolve you.” All I hear here is, “I condemn you.”
It is definitely in Bishop Olmsted’s pastoral mission to rightly inform St. Joseph’s hospital that they have condemned themselves by committing such evil in contradiction to canon law and authoritative papal teaching.

Also, you don’t get to hear “I absolve you,” in the confessional unless you admit that what you did was wrong and evil and recant it.

That’s the entire point of the excommunication and the injunction against St. Joseph’s Hospital: Do not remain obstinate in your sin, but repent of it and be healed.
  • Marty Lund
 
Having taken more time to do some research - and I find when I come back to the post that you have also explained more -I can see why the hospital lost the support of the diocese. Then I saw a video of a speech the Sister gave to Call to Action and realise there is more to this story than meets the eye.

It seems the mom wasn’t quite as sick, the Nun not quite as impartial (or contrite), and the hospital not quite as Catholic as seemed at first blush.

But I appreciate the dialogue Marty Lund.
 
Here excommunication was lifted when she went to confession, soon after she learned that what she approved of was not an indirect abortion.

Also, her excommunication was not a public excommunication, and only became known because a reporter heard that an abortion had been performed at the Catholic hospital, and questioned the Bishop on it. His statement, without actually knowing who was involved at the time, merely point out that the people who were involved in this, would’ve excommunicated themselves, latae sententiae.

Anyway, the debate among theologians on this issue continues.

Jim
 
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