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ConstantLearner
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Someone else’s private revelation can bring another to the threshold of Catholicism, but should not form the basis for a conversion. A potential convert needs to study the tenets of the faith.
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adgloriam
Guest
I am absolutely in agreement with you!!adgloriam:
Someone else’s private revelation can bring another to the threshold of Catholicism, but should not form the basis for a conversion. A potential convert needs to study the tenets of the faith.
The distinction between “a sign” and “private revelation” is pertinent. Our Lady promised “a sign” for all to see.
This is a curious noteworthy detail: God all mighty is known to use unworthy instruments. If a private revelation, a sign, or a cure, is instrumental in producing conversion it is noteworthy that it may constitute an important instrument of Divine Providence chosen by Divine Will.
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BlackFriar
Guest
I see no correction sorry???
You still seem to be asserting he saw the Fatima MOTS in May 1917 on his episcopal ordination day - many months before it even happened in Fatima.
That would make 5 such miracles of the sun he witnessed in his lifetime.
Yet he only named 4 from what I have read and they all occurred in 1950.
You are welcome to clarify…
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SuperLuigi
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First of all, those people don’t look terribly comfortable to me with what they are looking at.
Secondly, you don’t have to believe in Fatima to be Catholic.
Secondly, you don’t have to believe in Fatima to be Catholic.
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adgloriam
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Pope Pius XII himself had to carefully strike-through his own writing in search for the right words and phrasing. 
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Pius XII’s note on the “miracle of the sun”
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Pius XII’s note on the “miracle of the sun”
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Kathleen18
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Self-editing never goes out of style!
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pocaracas
Guest
You forgot an important detailphil19034:
There were 2 factions at play:adgloriam:
Please enlighten me then. It was my understanding that the officials who questioned the children were fascist & atheists. Was I mistaken?phil19034:
You are not Portuguese and don’t know what you are talking about.
Thank you and God Bless
A. Republicans
B. Conservatives
In 1908 the King is assassinated by the Republicans.
In 1910 the Republic is proclaimed. (Practically the first modern republic in Europe without a King.)
In 1911 the Republicans declare separation of church and state and expel all religious orders. Pope Pius X publishes the encyclical “Iamdudum” in response.
In 1917 during the apparitions the Republicans are still in power.
In late 1917, after the apparitions, there is a military coup by conservatives. Separation between church and state is abolished, and the Conservatives restore diplomatic relations with the Vatican.
In 1918 the Conservative president is, again, assassinated by the Republicans.
In 1926 a military coup puts the Conservatives in power again, until the 1933 elections that would develop into fascism until 1974.
HOW DOES ALL THIS LINK TO FÁTIMA? First, Our Lady herself said that a chapel should be built in her honor and that a procession should be held. Both of these were forbidden by the republicans at the time. So you can see the mother of God said there should be disobedience to the Republicans government ban on the catholic church. The Fascists in Portugal were mostly sympathetic and aligned with the church, and also managed to keep Portugal outside of WW2.
In 1914 the First World War begins
In 1916 Portugal officially enters the war over conflicts with Germany in the African colonies. Don’t forget the long-standing Alliance between Portugal and Britain, so Portugal was to take the side that the British took… Curiously, the communist Russians were aligned with the allied forces - can’t have those atheists stand in with a good reputation - and then stuff happens in Cova da Moura, Fátima, Portugal… as far away from Russia as possible, to some totally clueless uneducated shepherd kids.
Whatever wobbling of the sun was seen by whomever was in a place literally called “hole” (cova) was not what was originally promised to happen.
The early reports of the event mention that some saw something, some saw something else and most saw nothing, including the on-site reporter. Which is what you’d expect from turbulent atmospheric lensing.
Of course, if you have enough people looking at the sky, some will see giraffes, some will see lambs, some will see floaters, some will see crazy stuff… add that to the fact that someone shouted for people to look at the sun! The SUN! Even during eclipses, you don’t look at the sun! Damaged corneas ensue… and false imaging.
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adgloriam
Guest
Now the last post by @pocaracas has to be one of the most uniformed fact mix-ups I’ve read in recent years.
You just made my day @pocaracas I’ll be laughing about your post for the better part of this week…I cannot thank you enough for your lovely sincere effort HAHAHAHA
I’m in fact Portuguese, you wanting to lecture me on the story of my own country is simply lovely…Thank you a million for that.
You just made my day @pocaracas I’ll be laughing about your post for the better part of this week…I cannot thank you enough for your lovely sincere effort HAHAHAHA
I’m in fact Portuguese, you wanting to lecture me on the story of my own country is simply lovely…Thank you a million for that.
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pocaracas
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How about you try to read my nick in portuguese? 
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adgloriam
Guest
Even if you were Portuguese, which I doubt, you got all the facts wrong anyway. I also raise the bar higher, there are plenty of US citizens on this thread that show better knowledge than you - for all dues and effects. And your screen name holds meanings in other languages, means nothing.
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pocaracas
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Well then… Laugh all you want, but while you’re claiming me to get my facts wrong, feel free to list the wrong things…
Enjoy reading
http://www.deuslovult.org/2009/05/19/milagre-de-fatima-jornal-o-seculo/
Enjoy reading
http://www.deuslovult.org/2009/05/19/milagre-de-fatima-jornal-o-seculo/
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adgloriam
Guest
Hey, what country are you from? What is your religion?
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pocaracas
Guest
LOL… Lisboa, Benfica. I live within walking distance of The Cathedral!
But I don’t care for football.
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adgloriam
Guest
Well, you managed to fail at responding both questions. Please allow me:
You are a secularized.
Nothing you say represents a Portuguese Catholic. [And most of what you say does a poor job at representing a Portuguese.]
You are a secularized.
Nothing you say represents a Portuguese Catholic. [And most of what you say does a poor job at representing a Portuguese.]
Belief... or lack thereof
I can’t, in all honesty, make that claim, no.That’s why I’m on the agnostic camp.
However, it’s a working assumption… I lead my life under the assumption that no god whatsoever exists, and that includes God. That’s why I’m in the atheist camp.
Hence the “agnostic atheist” label I put in the OP.
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BlackFriar
Guest
Personally the miracle for me has always been the coincidence. While its true the phenomenon may well have been a rare natural event the prediction of it was astounding.
It matters not that some were standing in the right place and others not.
It matters not that some were standing in the right place and others not.
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BlackFriar
Guest
What was promised to happen?
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pocaracas
Guest
pt-pt: para bom entendedor, meia palavra basta.
And, yeah… I’m not a good representative of the Portuguese people, who subscribe to the three Fs, Futebol, Fátima, Fado.
I’m more Computer, Science and Orchestral.
Good detective work, there… I’d forgotten about that stuff.
A coincidence is just that.
The prediction that there would be an apparition, similar to all the previous apparitions that the three kids alone had witnessed, was not what happened.
Something else happened, as luck would have it… was it something common in that place? We don’t know. It was the middle of nowhere and only the people who owned it (or used it) could have taken the time to notice any such thing… the same people who could have set the thing up.
To me, the wondrous thing is that so many people went there. How did they know to go? Who told them to go? How did that word spread from such a small town? Why would so many people believe something was going to happen there?
Certainly, not through newspapers, as the people’s literacy was way low. What other medium existed that could deliver a message to a large number of people? No radio, no tv, no twitter, no paper…
Dare I guess that some (or most) were spurred on by the priests of nearby parishes?
Why would they, when the official story claims that the priest in that particular parish was adamantly against acknowledging the kids’ story… wasn’t it? (there you go, adgloriam, I’m working from my notably weak memory, feel free to say this wasn’t so)
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BlackFriar
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How about quoting sources rather than your own paraphrasing?
I wouldnt be so quick to poopoo astounding coincidences.
If there is a God who respects our freedom and does not wish to tamper with the laws of his own creation surely natural coincidences would be a truly harmonious way of saying hello to atheists of good will and openness to things beyond their own horizons.
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adgloriam
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Exactly what books about Fátima did you read?
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ConstantLearner
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I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought it was just a sign so that everyone would know they children were being truthful. A dancing sun was never promised, far as I can remember. As I said, if I’m wrong, I’m sure someone will hop in and correct me. I’m no expert on Fatima, that’s for sure, though I’ve read some books about it, discussed it in Catholic school.
Personally, I don’t believe it. I don’t believe the children were lying; I believe they just had overactive imaginations and convinced themselves what they thought they saw, they truly did. However, I am open to change on that personal opinion, open to belief. Obviously, the revelation was not meant for me.
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