Physical location of heaven?

[clintbranam]

Does the Church teach on whether heaven exists within our physical universe?

My default thinking has been heaven (and hell) are not physical places but, rather, exist on another plane, which mankind knows nothing about from a scientific standpoint.

Given the importance on the physical assumption of Mary and ascension Jesus into heaven: if their physical bodies are so important, where they physically are, right now?

Is the thinking that they disappeared into another realm once they got high enough in the sky? If so, why bother–couldn’t they have just disappeared while on earth? Or was them floating up towards heaven meant to be symbolic to observers–before they disappeared into another realm?

Or are they on some other inhabitable planet–and that’s heaven?

Are they floating in outer space somewhere, with everything that physically enables our bodies to survive as humans irrelevant? If so, again, what’s the point of focusing on the physical bodies?

It may sound like a silly question, but there’s serious focus on the assumption and ascension and resurrection of the dead: surely someone has seriously addressed this at some point in Church history?

 

[fhansen]

I like Pope Emeritus Benedict’s statement in “Jesus of Nazareth”, I believe, “God is heaven”. And of course He exists outside of time and space. I’m not sure that we can-or need to-know a great deal more at this point.

 

[clintbranam]

Any idea why the focus on the assumption and ascension in the rosary then–and on the bodily resurrection in the Creed? If the physical bodies weren’t much of a focus, I wouldn’t be as curious.

And I’m talking about Jesus, who was fully man, with a physical body–as well as fully God, obviously. Do physical bodies exist outside of time and space?

Surely someone has addressed this in two thousand years?

 

[fhansen]

I’m sorry, I guess that’s out of my league. But I think either way the kingdom of God begins even here, within us, and that’s already related to heaven. But it’s a valid question as to the nature of the resurrected bodies and what kind of environment they might require.

 

[TK421]

@clintbranam

A bit of a long post

Lots and lots of people have talked about it so it’s hard to know where to begin. It’s highly speculative of course as well as inadequate until we’ve experience it. You could easily do a doctoral dissertation on the topic.

It is Church teaching that we will have physical bodies in the hereafter, whatever that means. From reading the mystics, it’s not the same as our current bodies. People usually appear in their prime, but they can also take on the form of infancy or the dignity of old age. They can exist in multiple locations at once, move from place to place at will, and of course don’t experience any bodily ailments. Obstacles from language or misunderstanding are completely removed. The effects of Original Sin are completely gone and free will is perfected so that what we want and what we do is never in conflict. Everybody will love each other. Murderers and the murdered will be brothers and sisters.

As far as physical space, it will probably make our known universe look like a drop of water in an ocean. This life is a womb so it makes you wonder what real life is like. Think about how restricted and limited a baby is in a mother’s womb compared to somebody roaming about on Earth.

I think Mother Angelica’s writings “What is Heaven?” would be a good place to start because it’s sort of a synopsis of what saints and mystics have talked about over the centuries. Many Catholics seldom or ever contemplate Heaven or think there is no point since it is completely beyond us, but this is a false humility and a false meekness. This idea comes from the Enemy because he knows the imagination can be exploited to do evil but it is also a powerful weapon for good. It is good to contemplate the hereafter and to exercise the imagination concerning spiritual things. It is the intention that matters. If like little children we draw a sketch of Heaven in our mind and it looks like scribbles compared to the real thing, it will still make our Father smile and it will be meritorious and sanctifying.

 

[EndTimes]

Does the Church teach on whether heaven exists within our physical universe?

My default thinking has been heaven (and hell) are not physical places but, rather, exist on another plane, which mankind knows nothing about from a scientific standpoint.

Given the importance on the physical assumption of Mary and ascension Jesus into heaven: if their physical bodies are so important, where they physically are, right now?

Is the thinking that they disappeared into another realm once they got high enough in the sky? If so, why bother–couldn’t they have just disappeared while on earth? Or was them floating up towards heaven meant to be symbolic to observers–before they disappeared into another realm?

Or are they on some other inhabitable planet–and that’s heaven?

Are they floating in outer space somewhere, with everything that physically enables our bodies to survive as humans irrelevant? If so, again, what’s the point of focusing on the physical bodies?

It may sound like a silly question, but there’s serious focus on the assumption and ascension and resurrection of the dead: surely someone has seriously addressed this at some point in Church history?

The Church does not teach that Heaven is located in our Physical Universe…
Nor on another planet…
Our selves and bodies shall be different - more akin to that of angels…
All of Creation - aka this Universe - shall roll up like a scroll…
This Earth - shall be replaced by a New Earth…

Saint Pope John Paul II addressed Heaven… (ABRIDGED)

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In the context of Revelation, we know that the “heaven” or “happiness” in which we will find ourselves is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit.

It is always necessary to maintain a certain restraint in describing these “ultimate realities” since their depiction is always unsatisfactory. Today, personalist language is better suited to describing the state of happiness and peace we will enjoy in our definitive communion with God.

By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has ‘opened’ heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ” (n. 1026).

We know that on this earth everything is subject to limits, but the thought of the “ultimate” realities helps us to live better the “penultimate” realities. We know that as we pass through this world we are called to seek “the things that are above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God” ( Col 3:1), in order to be with him in the eschatological fulfilment, when the Spirit will fully reconcile with the Father “all things, whether on earth or in heaven” ( Col 1:20).

 

[whatistrue]

You could easily do a doctoral dissertation on the topic.

Yes, I know that you didn’t mean it literally, but I just can’t resist…

I am sure that many could be done, but not easily and not by me.

 

[Maximus1]

The practice of making a burnt sacrifice long ago was reasoned on the basis that heaven existed not to far above our heads. The smoke rose right in.
This is an area where science has and continues to refine our ideas. It is a mystery still and you might be better off informing yourself about what it is not.
A few years ago SPJPII commented negatively about his amazement that some Catholics still believe Hell is a physical place.
Since the time of the early church fathers our destination was described as " Divine Union" with God. The Gospels make Jesus Christ the vine where we are branches. A metaphor. Other passages, the mediator, and still others, " adopted through". The mystery of incarnation describes a single being who is both flesh and spirit. A kind of bridge between the two. While at the same time each of us have a sould and are also flesh and spirit. Divinization and the Divine Indwelling.
In my humble opinion learning whatever you can about these things only serves to increase the complexity and refine the unanswerable questions

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

The practice of making a burnt sacrifice long ago was reasoned on the basis that heaven existed not to far above our heads.

Yes and the other reason was that the sacrificial animal was utterly destroyed.
The worshiper couldn’t reneg on the sacrifice and be a gimme-giver.

 

[clintbranam]

Interesting but I still don’t understand why the focus on the physical body then… the assumption, the ascension in the rosary, resurrection in the Creed… why the focus on the physical body if we get new bodies outside of this physical universe? Is Mary’s actual body not in heaven, in contrast to the other saints? Why?

 

[Gorgias]

Does the Church teach on whether heaven exists within our physical universe?

It does not. If it did, then that would mean that God is bounded by the physical universe. He is not “the big guy in the skies”, as many unbelievers think that Christians believe.

Given the importance on the physical assumption of Mary and ascension Jesus into heaven: if their physical bodies are so important, where they physically are, right now?

It’s a fair question. Since we don’t know the “location” of heaven, the best answer is either “we don’t know” or “not here”.

Or was them floating up towards heaven meant to be symbolic to observers–before they disappeared into another realm?

My personal opinion? In those days, heaven was understood to be “up”. So, it’s more for understandability for Jesus to be seen “going up.”

Are they floating in outer space somewhere, with everything that physically enables our bodies to survive as humans irrelevant?

Nope.

If so, again, what’s the point of focusing on the physical bodies?

Any idea why the focus on the assumption and ascension in the rosary then–and on the bodily resurrection in the Creed?

The import of Jesus and Mary being physically in heaven, I think, is to point to the fact that all of us will have reconstituted, glorified bodies in the eschaton.

 

[Aquinas11]

Interesting but I still don’t understand why the focus on the physical body then… the assumption, the ascension in the rosary, resurrection in the Creed… why the focus on the physical body if we get new bodies outside of this physical universe? Is Mary’s actual body not in heaven, in contrast to the other saints? Why?

I think the focus on Jesus and Mary in particular because they are the only two in history who never sinned, thus their body could enter heaven. I could be wrong.

EDIT: As Gorgias says below, more accurate to say Jesus and Mary both died without sin (original sin or personal sin)

 

[Gorgias]

I think the focus on Jesus and Mary in particular because they are the only two in history who never sinned, thus their body could enter heaven. I could be wrong.

I would disagree with that assertion. Those who die in the womb have never sinned, either. We don’t assert that they’re in heaven bodily. (In fact, we’d be shown to be completely wrong, if that were our assertion, since we could be pointed to bodies in graves.)

Now… you could make that assertion in the context of original sin, if you like. That might make the argument a bit stronger (but you’d still have to include personal sin in the assertion, since Adam and Eve weren’t created with original sin, and we don’t teach that they’re physically in heaven, either).

 

[Aquinas11]

Yes thank you that’s much better stated on the original sin. Mary conceived without sin and Jesus also.

 

[IWantGod]

Does the Church teach on whether heaven exists within our physical universe?

I imagine there will be a physical place where we will experience heaven, but heaven itself will not be a place or an artificial construct. What God has created is finite and cannot fulfil us because God is our natural end. I imagine God is heaven which we will experience through the beatific vision.

 

[Gorgias]

No, that’s not what the Church teaches. The garden was part of creation.

No, that’s not right, either. In his lectures on the “Theology of the Body”, St Pope John Paul II taught that we’re not destined for a return back to the garden, but to go forward to heaven itself.

 

[Gorgias]

Yes, but you made the claim that this will take place in Eden. That’s what the Church doesn’t teach.

 

[EndTimes]

why the focus on the physical body if we get new bodies outside of this physical universe?

I’m not focussing upon the physical body… Speaking of which - from Scriptures we have…

" *At the Resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; *
they will be like the angels in heaven. " — JESUS

 

[EndTimes]

According to the Magisterium - it is “servant” to Scriptures

This from Sacred Sciptures… Not so easy to understand w/o some thought - and it is beautiful.

The Resurrection Body 1 COR 15:

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”

36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

 

[TryingtoGainFaith]

My few cents:

God is spirit.

All these materialistic manifestation we see around is due to the ‘spirit’ given to Adam. When human are given another spirit they feel the end time, yet another spirit ’can cause’ bodily resurrection and so on.

It might have been awkward for our senses (we are the proverbial blind people of blind people and the elephant) when watching someone disappear (back to spirit, so living Jesus is every where and anywhere now, beware!) abruptly, so let it happen under the cover of clouds. So will be the second coming.

Remember, the viability of ascension has been repeatedly indicated to the disbelievers by the levitation experienced by many saints.