Physical negative reinforcement to prevent sin?

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Marianonymous

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Regarding the subject of giving ourselves physical pain to distract or prevent ourselves from acting on a sinful habit, such as unchaste/lustful fantasies or masturbation, can this kind of self-corporal-punishment or negative reinforcement through physical pain be sinful in itself? We are taught to respect our bodies as temples of the Holy Spirit, and also that Jesus suffered and died to free us from our sins. In those ways one could consider self-punishment disrespectful of our bodies as well as the sacrifice Jesus gave for us. In the vein, there’s the idea that God and God alone has the right to punish us for only He knows the full extent and culpability of our sin, so taking it upon ourselves is wrong.

But then there’s the subject of mortification. Minor mortification, especially just fasting, is not only permitted but encouraged; even commanded, as it teaches us to be in control of our physical natures.
And if non-harmful negative reinforcement through physical pain is used to keep us from falling into a deadly sin, is it not justified?

I ask because I am in this situation. I have an emotional addiction to lustful fantasies that I find myself fully allowing myself to enjoy before my brain even registers that, oh yeah, this is a sin. At that point I stop and repent, but it’s such a habit that I feel horribly ashamed, even when I do catch myself before it become truly sinful. I’ve been fighting it for a long time, but I am suffering from many emotional and psychological ailments that make it so incredibly difficult to fight… I’m not saying that is an excuse, it just makes me feel more desperate in my attempts to stop.

So… without thinking much of the ramifications and whether or not I’m trading one sin for another, I started beating myself with the back of a large brush whenever I fall into the lustful fantasies. It works most of the time… but I’m afraid that it’s not a moral solution and that I’m just sinning in a different way by abusing myself. Edit: I should say that I am careful not to actually harm or damage myself. I just cause temporary pain.

I intend to seek counsel from a priest, but it’s very difficult for me to do that due to my health problems. It may take time, and I would like some thoughts or advice in the meantime.
And especially prayers.
 
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Wow, you sound a bit like me. Please don’t do that. It doesn’t truly work and it’s a slippery slope.
 
Just thought I would add that I also have a psychological ailment or something, they call it different things, but multiple personalities basically, and when they are thinking or communicating sometimes it can be some really annoying or sinful or mean stuff just meant to bother me, and it is only sometimes possible to tune it out and it’s rough…I dunno if that’s what you have or not, but I mean I used to beat myself with chains and that is a slippery slope I hope you don’t go down, friend. I try to remember that Jesus took all the beatings for me but it is hard to remember sometimes.
 
I’m sorry you’re suffering like that. 😦 I don’t have that particular ailment, but I do suffer from intrusive thoughts, so I guess that’s somewhat similar. The thoughts aren’t directly related to my lustful fantasizing habit though (they’re related to abuse I suffered as a child). What I was talking about in regards to my sinful habit was more the inability to concentrate and foggy thinking I have, which are most likely caused by my chronic anxiety and/or depression, among more physical chronic illnesses. I feel so zoned out that my mind just goes places before I can consciously think about what I’m imagining… and realize the fact that sometimes it’s sinful. But once I’m deep into the fantasy… it’s very hard to stop, even when I do realize what I’m doing. That’s when it becomes a knowing, willing sin. And that’s when I “panic” and feel like the only way I can quickly stop is to cause myself pain. And it has to be enough pain that it overpowers whatever my brain is stuck on. But I do try not to do any actual harm. Just cause non-damaging pain.
 
Thank you for your reply. It’s good to be reminded that I’m not alone.

I looked at your link, and some of the 20 steps I can do (and some I already do), but others are extremely difficult or downright impossible with my health problems. I can try the things I can do, but I’m afraid it won’t be enough. It’s all so overwhelming…
Thank you for posting it anyway, because even though there are a lot of steps I can’t accomplish, there were some useful things that will help. 🙂
 
Bro ignatius , we are not to offer medical or other advice. As such I have flagged your post
 
withdrawing post. Using ignore function instead
 
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Oh. I was also unaware of those forum rules. I do still appreciate the resources though.

I mean that some of the steps specifically mention doing things related to health, such as avoiding stress and fatigue. Stress and fatigue are constants in my life due to chronic health issues. Eat properly, exercise, volunteer and stay active, those things as well.

Also due to my health I have trouble reading large amounts of text, so some of the specific prayers and meditations are infeasible.

But many of the steps are things I can do. So I will do what I can. Thank you.
 
Thought control. Sexual sin does not occur in the absence of thought. Mortification will only leave you in pain - until and unless you control your thoughts. What triggers those thoughts? Remove the triggers. Vids, movies, books, magazines, cable channels - whatever triggers the thoughts must go. Gain control of your eyes, if they offend you. Focus on other people’s eyes. Their eyes. See our Lord in their eyes, as the evil one tempts you in particular with the rest of the body. Eyes.

Yes, speak with Father, but gain control of thoughts and remove whatever triggers those thoughts.
 
I also have chronic illnesses, several, that make me disabled. One cannot avoid stress completely, but it is possible to reduce stress levels from whatever levels we are use to.

I also have problems with reading large amounts of text. Sounds like we may ride the same saddle.
 
The problem is that there are no specific triggers. Just general loneliness, isolation, and my brain dealing with childhood abuse in an unhealthy way. And while sin can’t exist in absence of thought, absence of thought can very easily lead to one’s mind drifting into sin. That is the problem. My illness makes controlling my thoughts difficult, especially when I’m really tired. Trying to fall asleep, for example. My insomnia tends to give me plenty of time to fall into these sins. And it’s so much harder to control thoughts when you’re trying to drift off to sleep.

As far as mortification only leading to pain, that’s not quite accurate. I actually find that it does the job well. I’m distracted and my body made uncomfortable enough that the temptation and lustful feelings go away for some time, which gives me time to concentrate better next time the temptation comes. I’m not trying to justify it, but to imply that the physical pain does nothing to fight the sinful fantasies is just incorrect. Which is why it’s so hard to stop. If causing temporary non-damaging pain is a sin, it feels like a matter of choosing the lesser of two sins.

I’m sorry if I just seem like I’m arguing, I’m just really trying to work this out. I will take what people are saying to prayer.
 
Yeah, maybe we share a few crosses. It’s always somehow comforting to know you’re not alone in your suffering, even though we don’t actually wish it on others. 🙂

Thanks for pointing me to the support group, btw. Unfortunately I don’t believe an online group is what I need right now.
 
Marianonymous said:
The problem is that there are no specific triggers. Just general loneliness, isolation, and my brain dealing with childhood abuse in an unhealthy way. And while sin can’t exist in absence of thought, absence of thought can very easily lead to one’s mind drifting into sin. That is the problem. My illness makes controlling my thoughts difficult, especially when I’m really tired. Trying to fall asleep, for example. My insomnia tends to give me plenty of time to fall into these sins. And it’s so much harder to control thoughts when you’re trying to drift off to sleep.
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What you are describing here is not sin. Sinful thoughts come only as we have control over those thoughts and indulge them.
 
Marianonymous said:
Yeah, maybe we share a few crosses. It’s always somehow comforting to know you’re not alone in your suffering, even though we don’t actually wish it on others. 🙂

Thanks for pointing me to the support group, btw. Unfortunately I don’t believe an online group is what I need right now.
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That is fine, no problem. Just letting your know there are resources available, especially to people who cannot get out and online is the only choice. It is there if you need it.

In any case, you will be on our prayer list. We will be praying for you from now on.

God Bless.
 
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Well, maybe I wasn’t clear. They start out innocent in that it’s just my brain doing what human brains do, but once the fantasy starts I do eventually become fully aware that I’m doing it. When that happens and I continue, knowing exactly what I’m doing, that is the sin. It’s not that I can’t fight it, it’s that I’m very weak and emotionally addicted to doing it. That’s why it feels easier to hurt myself than to fight it with my will alone.

Thank you for your prayers. ^-^
 
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Do you have a professional health professional that you can discuss this with.

We are really not qualified to discuss the ins and outs of your specific set of circumstances and how what you see as a potential fix might harm or help you.

Any advice we give has the potential to set you back and harm your forward progress.

We can pray for you , and I shall
 
Being addicted to doing it means that you do not have control. The Church talks about this. Addiction usually means a diminished responsibility, which means that an otherwise sin is either reduced in its severity, or not counted to you as culpable at all.

You need to talk to your priest, if you are not wanting online resources.
 
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I do have a therapist, but he’s not Catholic and, unfortunately, I don’t think he believes lustful fantasies are immoral. I will discuss it with him anyway, but I’m taking what he says about moral issues with a grain of salt. He is respectful of my beliefs and tries to work with them in mind though, so that’s nice.

I know not to take what anyone here says as Gospel. I was just looking to see other people’s thoughts and opinions on physical negative reinforcement to fight sinful habits in general. I guess I got a bit too personal. I know I’ve seen people mention it on this forum as a way of fighting a habit of masturbation (which I know isn’t what my issue is). So I was really just hoping to start a conversation about these things, not so much my own issues. I got carried away, I guess.

I am absolutely going to talk to a priest about my specific issues. I just thought I’d get people’s thoughts on the general subject in the meantime.
 
You have done nothing wrong. Tell your professional that the issue of your fantasies has lead you to self mortification . Can you also phone your clergy, given you cant get there as often as you like, and discuss it with him too, letting him know you are also seeing a professional?
 
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